the silliness debate

[Brian Reddinger]

> >>>>>>>>>>
> Not so.  People didn't go into rounds thinking, I'm gonna say there not
> topical, but I won't know how to evaluate the difference between our
> interpretations.
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
> People used to read defs in the 1AC. The 1NC then read c/defs. Not until
> later did there become need for "standards" to decide which def was best.
> Also, the list of those standards has changed drastically in the past 20
> years or so.
>
> We are constantly changing the "standards", and this change usually happens
> in the round first.

So tell me what the argument would look like in the round.  Would it be
more in depth than, "They treaded too close to our ground"?  Or would it
have some analysis?

 >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Besides, I don't think standards are what's really analogous here.  I'm
> talking about a violation.  You've set the rule that Neg Plans can't tread
> too close to the affirmative plan.  All I want to know is how you can tell
> if negs violate that rule?
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
> You can't. Any more than you can tell if a plan is non-topical until you
> have heard the violations and the debate on the violations. I have heard
> some cases that, on face, seemed perfectly topical which got creamed on T in
> the debate. Conversely, I have seen some damned NON-topical cases that
> rarely lost on T.
>
That's bull, in a round or on edebate you can say what the argument is
going to be.  Even if you don't know what the interpretation is.

ex)SA is 5 programs.  The plan doesn't say which program it is.

I don't think that's difficult.  It makes sense even when you're not in
the stinkin round.  Look at the plan.  Does it say?  That's the question
in the round.  Not what's the argument.

> This is what I mean on the abuse. You can't put a black and white standard
> on which neg plans tread too close and which don't until you've heard the
> abuse argumentation in the round.  Just like you can't put a black and white
> standard on which cases are topical and which aren't until you've heard the
> debate on topicality.
>
Wrong, you can certainly determine what cases you can run your violation
on whether you're in the round or not.

> >>>>>>>>>>
> My question is, how can negatives then determine the ground that they have
> on the fringes?
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
> The same way they do now. They take their best shot.
>
So take your best shot on edebate.

> How do they currently know if their c/plan is legitimate considering the
> plethora of c/plan theories on PIC, exclusionay, topical, etc? You go into
> the debate assuming that your c/plan will win and debate it out.
>
Wrong, you assume that I'm asking for the truth on the issue.  I don't
know of a debater alive who believes his/her theory is true.  It's theory
for god's sake.

There are however arguments to made on all of these issues which can be
articulated.  You on the other hand have eloquently avoided the question
for about five posts now.

> >>>>>>>>>>
> I say you ask the question, "Is the counterplan a reason why the plan, as
> read in the 1AC and explained in subsequent speaches, should not be done?"
> That's something which is concrete to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
> It's only concrete because you have reduced it to the minimal denominator. I
> could ask the same concrete question in P2. "Is the neg plan better than the
> aff plan?"
>
I'll buy that.  But I can think of, and say concrete arguments that I
already understand to draw distinctions between CPs that win rounds, and
silly irrelevant ones that make little or no sense.

> Where it gets tricky for BOTH focuses is the debate (sure, that has to
> actually occur in your focus too). Now your concrete question becomes a
> little more like quicksand.

Except I think everyone in this community has heard a perm in their life,
and they know how they work.  This "too close to the aff plan" thing is
something that I just heard of.  I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm not
saying that whatever you think is traditional is right.  I want to
understand what the argument would sound like in a round.  So far I've
heard nada on that.
 >
> So, let's discuss your concrete c/plan for a second. Can it be PIC,

no.

> exclusionary,

yes.

> topical,

yes.

> utopian?

sure.

 Well, there is much debate on that. Okay,
> fair enough,

I agree.  Why fix it if it ain't broke?

> does it have fiat,

doesn't have to

> international fiat,

it could

> USFG fiat,

it could

> or no fiat at
> all?

It has been argued fairly well that this is possible

>Well, there seems to be much debate on THAT as well.

But not too much about what "treads too close to the aff's ground"

> Okay, is it a test

could be.  some think necesarily so.  I personally doubt it.

> or is it advocated?

I think it should.

> Uh, more debate.

yeah, these are issues that I could think about what I would say in a
round to PROVE why.

> Fine, what checks abuse? Why
> competition of course.

Of course.

> Cool, what is THAT? It proves relevence.

That's not something that I ever said.  Competition is a reason why the CP
is in fact something that you forgo by doing the plan.  There's an
either/or logic at play on the level of policy making, not of voiting in a
round.

> Great, does
> it have to be mutually exclusive or are net benefits enough?

No mutually exclusive, yes net benifits.  I like those.

> Sorry, that is
> being debated also.

Or more importantly they COULD be debated.  Which is substantially more
than I can say about the "treads too close" argument

> Fine, you MUST be able to concretely say whether or not
> perms are tests or advocated....

Certainly in opportunity cost theory they would be tests.  I can't imagine
any other way they could be explained as advocatable.  Saying you could do
the two does not say the judge would, it just implies that there is no
reason why voting for the CP would be a negative ballot.

> if hyper-perms

what in hell is a hyper-perm????

> and intrinsicness perms are
> legitimate??? Well, not really. So what DO you know about the c/plan??? That
> the question is "Is the c/plan a reason to reject the plan."
>
Yeah.  I dig that theory.

> Great...... Your question may be concrete, but the way to get to the answer
> is a mire.
>
Not so, all I'm asking for is a way to set about proving a violation of
this wonderful "treads too close" standard.

> >>>>>>>>>>
> > Got a theory more concrete than this I'd love to hear it.
>
> Yeah, opportunity cost.
> >>>>>>>>>>
>
> I think that you should plan on building your house on something a BIT more
> solid if you call this concrete.......   :-)
>
Oh come on.  This from the guy whose only explanation of his understanding
of the standard he made up ad hoc is that it would be debatable.  I return
your red herring.

> Don't get me wrong, I agree that in a traditional c/plan debate, opportunity
> cost is the model for the grounding. I also agree that o/c is the only way
> that traditional c/plans make sense. However, to claim that it is more
> concrete than plan/plan is to ignore the realities of the 90 minutes that
> debaters spend doing what they do best....... mucking up theory.
>
And this post would seem to mirror that tendancy.  We haven't come up with
any way of understanding what we're talking about.

> Simplistic questions are easy to come up with. The hard part is the path to
> the answer. I have yet to find a path simpler than P2.
>
So are simplistic theories, like P2.

Maybe I'm too young, but I have never heard of any debaters walking away
from a round convinced of anything.  Maybe they respect an argument as
winnable, or as defensible, but the first thing that I learned was that
debate is not intended to find any answers.

Okay, since this whole thread has ended up like a bad tennis match, I'll
put it straight out:

How do you argue that another plan treads too close to the affirmative
ground?

Let's table the other controversies until we get a decent strategy for
doing so.

After we get that, then I can argue why my view of CPs makes more sense.

I'm not looking for the answer, or what every ballot is going to look
like, I just want to know how the argument sounds.

If it doesn't go any further than what I've heard here, then call me
unconvinced.


Confused and frustrated,

Brian

>From  Fri Nov 21 01:38:46 1997
Message-Id: <FRI.21.NOV.1997.013846.0500.>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:38:46 -0500
Reply-To: CYBERBUSINESS at juno.com
To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: A FRIEND <cyberbusiness at JUNO.COM>
Comments: To: ebertnol at gt.unf.edu

Authenticated sender is <cyberbusiness at juno.com>
Subject:  CHECK THIS OUT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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