STOP THE BITCHIN' AND WHININ' !!!

[Frank P. Irizarry]

Terry West from Southern Utah writes:

"Clearly, this year will be a CEDA nationals like no other.  I believe
it will be marked by more and more schools saying "glad we didn't
spend the bucks to go there!" and more and more saying "geez, wish we
handn't spent the bucks to do this!"  I believe it will be marked by
more and more schools saying "we never had a chance; even if the
other team hadn't spoken--we lose."  I believe it will feed the
arguments of those who believe that CEDA has become pedagogically
bankrupt and that the alternatives are other (perhaps yet unformed)
organizations.Maybe I owe Scott Elliot an apology; maybe the time for
revolution is at hand.  "Fight the power!" takes on different meanings
when them becomes us."

Frank Irizarry responds:

I don't Know how many folks out there agree with me and quite frankly, I
don't really care, but I am sick and tired of all the unconstructive
bitching and whining that is taking place on this listserv lately.
Being in the East, I have an opportunity to interact with Tuna and Sam
Nelson every weekend and I know how much they are putting into this
years CEDA Nats and I know how much they give to our organization.  I
think it sucks to have to read gloom and doom messages like Terry's
bemoaning the death of CEDA Nats before the tournament even happens.  I
know Sam nelson has worked real hard to make this years tournament a
kick ass tournament and I think it's sad to denigrate the hard work of a
colleague before their year long project even comes to fruition!  I know
Tuna for a long time and I know CEDA and Debate as a whole mean a lot to
him, and I know he's been busting his ass performing the thankless task
as President of our organization to the best of his ability.  In a time
when we are trying to increase the diversity of our community while
dealing with declining numbers of programs and tournaments as well as a
proliferation of other debate venues ON TOP OF attempting to debate a
merged topic and deal with the desires and constraints of two Debate
organizations, I think the demands of all of our executives, especially
the president, are at an unprecedented level.

To all of you that like to bitch and moan so much, have you ever taken
the time to post a message to edebate thanking Tuna for the hard work
he's put in or maybe a quick shout out to Sam Nelson for agreeing to
host this years Tournament when no one else (besides USC) wanted to
host?  I think we need to thank all the members of our organization
whose unpaid and overworked job duties allow us all to do what we do.

Instead of throwing pot shots at Tuna about his leadership and how much
this years Nats is going to be a schwag tournament, why not try and come
up with some constructive ideas?  I think it's wholly unconstructive to
say "I don't like the way my organization is evolving so I think I'll
bail", or "I don't like the direction of our organization so I'm going
to resign from CEDA Council", or how about "I don't like the location of
this years tournament so I won't attend."  What's up with that?  If you
want to go, than just go, no need for a dramatic exit.  If you don't
want to be a leader in the organization than don't be a leader.  If you
don't want to go to CEDA Nats, than don't go.  All I know is that we are
at a point where we need to start discussing things constructively
instead of throwing cheep shots at one another.

Lastly, let me make it clear that this message is not directed at anyone
in particular.  A quote from Terry West exists at the top of the message
because I was reading his post when I decided to send this message and
also because I think Terry voices the sentiment of a vocal minority in
our community.  This message is not meant to be a personal attack on
anyone, just a lone plea to stop the madness on the listserv.  For me,
the bottom line is that if ya can't come correct, don't come at all!

frank irizarry
syracuse debate

>From  Tue Mar 10 15:20:14 1998
Message-Id: <TUE.10.MAR.1998.152014.MST7MDT.>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:20:14 MST7MDT
Reply-To: WEST at CENTRUM.CN.SUU.EDU
To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Terry West <WEST at CENTRUM.CN.SUU.EDU>
Organization: Southern Utah University
Subject: Re: STOP THE BITCHIN' AND WHININ' !!!

Specific responses to Mr. Irizzary below, but first a couple of
overviews:

1)  I object to the sexist term "bitchin'" at the title of this
    post.  It is not my title; I am responding to Mr. Irizzary.

2)  I object to Mr. Irizzary's characterization of my post as
    "whining."  I make reasoned arguments based upon empirical
    observation and quotes from the CEDA constitution.  We
    shall examine Mr. Irizzary's reasoning below.

3)  It seems to be a rather common tactic of some of my opponents
    lately to seek to escape rhetorical responsibility for what
    they write.  I am perplexed at Mr. Irizzary's attacks on me
    throughout this post, then his attempt to indicate that he
    is NOT attacking me.  Which is it, Frank?

Now to specifics.  On 10 March 1998, "Frank P. Irizzary" writes:

> I don't Know how many folks out there agree with me and quite frankly, I
> don't really care, but I am sick and tired of all the unconstructive
> bitching and whining that is taking place on this listserv lately.

What is unconstructive about asking that our organizations historical
traditions and constitutional provisions be followed and that
Executive fiat be limited?  Why do you choose to characterize this as
"bitching" and "whining"?

> Being in the East, I have an opportunity to interact with Tuna and
Sam
> Nelson every weekend and I know how much they are putting into this
> years CEDA Nats and I know how much they give to our organization.  I
> think it sucks to have to read gloom and doom messages like Terry's
> bemoaning the death of CEDA Nats before the tournament even happens.

Hmmmm.  Methinks there be some major butt-kissin' going on here.
Where was your post when Dr. Sniders confidante and New World Order
partner Professor Berube declared CEDA dead?  And what does "being
from the East" have to do with a damn thing?


 I
> know Sam nelson has worked real hard to make this years tournament a
> kick ass tournament and I think it's sad to denigrate the hard work of a
> colleague before their year long project even comes to fruition!

LIAR.  I dare you to show me one item in my post that can even
remotely be construed as a criticism of Sam Nelson.

I know
> Tuna for a long time and I know CEDA and Debate as a whole mean a lot to
> him, and I know he's been busting his ass performing the thankless task
> as President of our organization to the best of his ability.

CEDA and debate mean a lot to me, too, Irizzary.  And I think what
we've been doing in the past year sucks a lot worse than any
criticism of it.

In a time
> when we are trying to increase the diversity of our community while
> dealing with declining numbers of programs and tournaments as well as a
> proliferation of other debate venues ON TOP OF attempting to debate a
> merged topic and deal with the desires and constraints of two Debate
> organizations, I think the demands of all of our executives, especially
> the president, are at an unprecedented level.

And my post specifically addresses what I believe to be causes of the
decline.  Is your point that we are to blindly follow the hierarchy?
Is dissent no longer tolerated.  Professor Broda-Bahm (also from the
EAST) assures me that Dr. Snider's policies have no resemblance to
dictatorship.  Is the stifling of dissent consistent with that
statement?  FIGHT THE POWER!!!  DOWN WITH THE OPPRESSORS!!!

>
> To all of you that like to bitch and moan so much, have you ever taken
> the time to post a message to edebate thanking Tuna for the hard work
> he's put in or maybe a quick shout out to Sam Nelson for agreeing to
> host this years Tournament when no one else (besides USC) wanted to
> host?  I think we need to thank all the members of our organization
> whose unpaid and overworked job duties allow us all to do what we do.

Again, you're the one throwing the strawfigure.  I think our
Executive Council (including myself) made the unanimity of our
gratitude to Sam Nelson very clear.  As for Dr. Snider, he persists
in pretending that everyone who disagrees with one of his heavy-
handed declarations is picking on him and doesn't have the best
interests of the students at heart and whatever else he can think of
that avoids addressing the argument at hand.  I hereby publicly thank
Dr. Tuna for his hard work; and I mean it.  Ironically, I agree with
much of what he does.  I disagree about some.  And I specifically
disagree about unilateral declarations that are inconsistent with our
organization's successful tradition and constitutional implications.
Why do you persist in referring to that as "bitching and whining"?

>
> Instead of throwing pot shots at Tuna about his leadership and how much
> this years Nats is going to be a schwag tournament, why not try and come
> up with some constructive ideas?  I think it's wholly unconstructive to
> say "I don't like the way my organization is evolving so I think I'll
> bail", or "I don't like the direction of our organization so I'm going
> to resign from CEDA Council", or how about "I don't like the location of
> this years tournament so I won't attend."  What's up with that?  If you
> want to go, than just go, no need for a dramatic exit.  If you don't
> want to be a leader in the organization than don't be a leader.  If you
> don't want to go to CEDA Nats, than don't go.  All I know is that we are
> at a point where we need to start discussing things constructively
> instead of throwing cheep shots at one another.
>

Is your brain even on?  I think supporting our successful tradition
and constitution to be pretty damn constructive.  I think it's very
constructive to remove oneself from a corrupted system and work for
change from the outside.  And where in the blue bloody blazes are you
getting this stuff about not liking the location of this year's
tournament?  I never said that; hell, I've never even BEEN to
Rochester.  I'm looking forward to it.  So what's YOUR constructive
solution--unilateral reinterpretation of whatever we don't like?

> Lastly, let me make it clear that this message is not directed at anyone
> in particular.  A quote from Terry West exists at the top of the message
> because I was reading his post when I decided to send this message and
> also because I think Terry voices the sentiment of a vocal minority in
> our community.

IF IT'S NOW A MINORITY, IT'S BECAUSE THE MAJORITY WENT TO PARLI!


>This message is not meant to be a personal attack on
> anyone, just a lone plea to stop the madness on the listserv.  For me,
> the bottom line is that if ya can't come correct, don't come at all!

BULLSHIT!  It's clearly aimed at me; own up to it.  And I'll be
damned if I'll conform to your standard of "correct."  I've
compromised in supporting the President's pet project (mpj) on a one
year experimental basis--against EVERY PEDAGOGICAL BELIEF I'VE EVER
MAINTAINED ABOUT INTERCOLLEGIATE DEBATE!  I've bent over backwards
for this guy, but I'll be damned if I'll bend over.

Terry West
Speaking for himself

>
> frank irizarry
> syracuse debate
>