Potential replacement for eDebate

[Luchetti, M. Scott by way of Bob Jordan]

Bob, I didn't respond to the list because you backchanneled me.
Unless you have a reason not to, please forward this response on to
the list.  Thanks.

Thanks for getting back to me.
I think I agree with most of what you said below, but I want to make
a few points.
First, on the issue of instant access push - while it may be more
true in listserv format, it still can be true with UBB.  As I'm sure
you know you can select the option to receive an email update when
someone replies to a thread you initiated (in the full version).  I
know UBB will be having a major version update coming out pretty soon
and hopefully they will add the ability to request an email when
someone replies to a thread in which you are just a poster, not the
initiator.  In addition maybe an option to select certain threads for
notification of replies will be a possibility too.  If not in the
official UBB software, I would imagine someone could easily hack it
to do so (if they haven't done so already).

Second, while it is true that you can easily delete messages of no
interest, that method has two disadvantages: one is that with the UBB
you never even have to receive/delete those messages - just skip over
them.  This I find to be much easier than receiving and taking the
time to delete.  The other problem is that once you delete a message,
it's gone.  On the UBB you can much more easily search and find that
message again should you need to.  With a listserv you have to be
lucky enough to have one with a web interface (as eDebate does, but
others may not), and frankly the searching on that is not very good
from what I remember.

Third, on a listserv, while it is easier to send a single message to
a colleague, it is much more difficult to send an entire thread.
With UBB (full version) click one link, fill in four fields and you
can send a link to the whole thread, which will never be out of date
because if they follow the link a few days later, all the posts since
you sent it will be there too.  Now, granted there are a few
downsides to that in that you can't make comments directly within the
text of what you're forwarding, but you could still add comments to
the link email.  I'd say at worse it's a wash, but in my opinion UBB
has a slight advantage here..

Fourth, on the keeping an archive issue, although different, you
could still do this with UBB.  All you'd have to do is create a
folder (say DebateUBB in the My Documents folder or whatever you want
really), then save the web page to that folder.  The next time you
want to look at that page just go to the folder double click the file
and it will open in the browser whether you're connected or not.  For
the really enterprising folks, it should be possible to make the page
an offline web page and set synchronization options that will make
Windows automatically update the saved copy of the page, so what you
had saved days ago will always be current with what's on the server.
Don't know if this is possible on a Mac, but still, this offers a
major advantage over archiving email for the very fact that you can
save the whole thread in one operation.

So to wrap up, I freely admit that by switching to a UBB from a
listserv people will have to sacrifice some features, but in my
opinion everyone will gain so much more.  It will be a paradigm
shift, some adjustments will have to be made, but I think overall it
will be a better option.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Jordan [mailto:BobJordan at debatecoach.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 9:50 AM
To: Luchetti, M. Scott
Subject: Re: Potential replacement for eDebate


The Survivor Sucks site I mentioned was very high volume, but I don't
know the numbers. I know they had to stop allowing new participants
and at times the message volume would take down the system. I don't
think eDebate has that kind of message volume. I'm not convinced that
your test site will get enough traffic in two weeks to adequately
demonstrate how a busy board might look. It is also the registered
version so you can see all the features.

I think a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I like UBB
when there is an extended discussion about a topic that I want to
follow. I like the listserv because:

I have almost instantaneous access and the information is pushed to me;

At a glance I can quickly decide to delete messages that I know don't
interest me;

It is easy to forward information to a friend or colleague;

I can create a personal archive of messages that I deem important
that I can access without being online or killing trees.

Bob Jordan


>Bob, not sure what you're getting at here...  I've spent some time
>with several high traffic UBB sites and love them all.  Because it
>will tell you when you last logged on (if you forgot) and it lists
>posts in reverse chronological order, anyone can easily find how far
>back they need to go to be caught up.  I currently follow the
>discussions on Brighthand.com.  I would guess in the two forums with
>the most postings there are roughly 50-100 posts per day, maybe a
>little more.  On its busiest days eDebate got up to maybe 200 posts,
>right?  I have no trouble at all catching up on brighthand, and I
>think that traffic is roughly comparable to what we should expect
>with our UBB if it ever gets in full force.
>Please tell me more about what you saw as problems with the
>planetsucksinteractive.com UBB, and roughly how many posts per day
>we are talking about?  I'm guessing with something like Survivor and
>Big Brother they were at least approaching 1000 posts a day..
>Thanks for the feedback
>Scott
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Jordan [mailto:BobJordan at debatecoach.com]
>Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 7:45 PM
>To: Scott Luchetti; EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU
>Subject: Re: Potential replacement for eDebate
>
>
>I have mixed feelings about using a bulletin board as a replacement
>for a listserv.
>
>I would suggest looking at a UBB site that has a lot of traffic. I
>think that will give you a better idea of what you would be looking
>at each time you wanted to check out the latest.  I would suggest
>looking at:
>
>http://www.planetsucksinteractive.com/messageboard.html
>
>These UBB boards saw a lot of traffic during the Survivor fever this summer.
>
>Bob Jordan
>
>At 5:16 PM -0400 10/16/00, Scott Luchetti wrote:
>>As you probably know, plans have been announced to dismantle eDebate.  I
>>have an idea for a replacement that I'd like to try for the next few weeks
>>before eDebate is officially taken down (Oct 27).  Instead of an email
>>listserv, I have set up a trial run of an internet bulletin board system
>>called the Ultimate Bulletin Board (UBB).  This system will allow everyone
>>to post their messages to a website instead of sending them via email.
>>Additionally it will allow everyone to read the messages on the internet
>>instead of in their email boxes.  This offers several important advantages
>>over the email listserv method:
>>-No email inbox clutter.
>>-Thread-based discussions create less clutter overall, and allow much
>>easier to follow discussions than email can offer.
>>-Just read the threads and messages you are interested in, leave the rest
>>alone.
>>-The ability to split the UBB into several different forums, as seen here
>>with General Topics, Tournaments, and Off Topic.
>>-Very powerful search capability.
>>
>>In addition, UBB uniquely offers several special features:
>>-Option to receive an email immediately after someone posts a reply to your
>>thread.
>>-Ability to view the entire thread in a small window within a single
>>browser window while posting a reply (reply to this and try it).
>   >-Topics are listed in order of the most recent reply, so you can always be
>>up to date, and never miss a post.
>>
>>
>>There are tons of other features as well, but I won't list them all.
>>For now, please just go over to the bulletin board I have set up and play
>>around with it.  I'll warn you now though, this is just a freeware version
>>of the UBB software so many of the features are not implemented.  However,
>>if many people like the bulletin board approach, and it becomes a
>>substantial replacement for eDebate, I'd be willing to buy the full version
>>and possibly set up a dedicated website to host it.
>>
>>Anyway, you can get to it by going to http://www.okseriously.com/debate
>>
>>Please post feedback in the forums (actually I'll probably set up a
>>specific feedback forum soon), and don't post anything about it to eDebate
>>that you want me to read - I'm not subscribed.
>>
>>Thanks, and enjoy!
>>
>>Scott Luchetti
>>Asst. Debate Coach
>>University of Richmond

>From  Wed Oct 18 11:09:38 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:09:38 -0700
Reply-To: Jason.Jarvis at ASU.EDU
To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Jason Jarvis <Jason.Jarvis at ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Proposed Alternative to Edebate
Comments: To: Jim Hanson <hansonjb at WHITMAN.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <LOBBJBGKICPCCBKDJLIIAEMDDFAA.hansonjb at whitman.edu>

agreed. web based systems take too long, its much easier to just read what i
want and delete the rest.

.o2,

jason

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Jim Hanson wrote:

> with all due respect to these efforts, i think people, at least i, want a
> listserv. it keeps all the messages in one place with the rest of my email
> and i don't really want to have to load up a web page.
>
> tuna, is there anything that would change your mind?
>
> if not, tim mahoney, can you set up a listserv?
>
> jim hanson
> whitman college :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Team Topic Debating in America [mailto:EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU]On
> Behalf Of Scott Luchetti
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:14 PM
> To: EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU
> Subject: Re: Proposed Alternative to Edebate
>
>
> Stefan, and all..
> If you had missed my post yesterday, I have set up a trial run of exactly
> what you are talking about - a bulletin board based system.  I think it
> really has the potential to replace eDebate, if and only if we put it
> through the paces now.  This is my call to the community to start using,
> not just playing around with but USING the system, moving some of these
> threads over there, actually continuing discussions on it.  That way
> everyone can become accustomed to the necessary paradigm shift (though a
> small one) that would be required to go from a push-based listserv to a
> pull-based bulletin board system.  If you didn't see my previous post on
> this, you can view my initial post on the board which highlights many of
> the advantages of a BBS over a listserv.
> To access it go to http://www.okseriously.com/debate
> Also, some people have reported problems accessing the system, if you do
> have problems, please email me directly at scottl at okseriously.com
> Thanks, and remember if everyone starts testing it out now, it could
> possibly be a viable replacement by the time eDebate is taken down...
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:15:12 -0400, Stefan Bauschard <bauscsa4 at WFU.EDU>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >In light of edebate's apparent demise, I propose an alternative message
> >board based system. In this sytem, messages are posted to a web page and
> >people can read them in their leisure.  The disadvantage of the system is
> >that you do not get the messages in your email box.  The advantage of the
> >system is that you do not have to delete any email.  I can house it the
> >same place that i have the caselist info.  Thoughts?
> >
> >Stefan
>

>From  Wed Oct 18 14:31:14 2000
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To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Blackdebateguy at AOL.COM
Subject: north texas-esp cody morrow

can someone from unt backchannel me asap? i have a few questions re: your
tourney and the like.  thanks.

doug
macalester college

>From  Wed Oct 18 14:38:51 2000
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To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Justin Wales <Hmpshrdb8r at AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Death of Edebate: There Is an Alternative

I'm not sure why we should reject freedebate as a viable alternative to
EDebate. Of all the alternatives proposed thusfar, it seems that Freedebate
is the closest thing to the old EDebate. Personally i would prefer a listserv
to a web-based board. It's a nice idea but for me, and others i'd imagine,
it's easier to have the messages delivered along with email. Don't dismiss
Freedebate simply because you don't like Matt. I don't know him and i
disagree with just about everything he says, but the truth is that he has
proposed the best alternative to EDebate that we have.

Justin

>From  Wed Oct 18 14:38:48 2000
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From: Dave Anthony <DaveAnt420 at AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Proposed Alternative to Edebate
Comments: To: Jason.Jarvis at asu.edu

In a message dated 10/18/00 12:15:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
Jason.Jarvis at ASU.EDU writes:

> agreed. web based systems take too long, its much easier to just read what i
>  want and delete the rest.
>
>  .o2,
>
>  jason

Either you must have a really slow machine or very low-baud modem. This one
loads up quick and you read only the posts you want to. Check it out before
dismissing it on assumptions of "ease." It does turn the overloaded mailboxes
argument so frequently advanced.

Bear

Bear

>From  Wed Oct 18 15:24:40 2000
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Reply-To: bodonnel at liberty.edu
To: Team Topic Debating in America <EDEBATE at LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Brett O'Donnell <bodonnel at LIBERTY.EDU>
Subject: Liberty Tournament Hotel Rooms

If you are planning on coming to the Liberty Debate Tournament, the hotel
rooms are going quickly!  The deadline for reservations is October 26, 2000.

The Ramada Inn (formerly the Holiday Inn Central, our usual tournament
hotel) of Lynchburg is this year's tournament hotel.  Ramada Inn is located
on Odd Fellows Road off of Interstate 29.  They are providing a flat rate of
$55 per night for up to four people per room and includes a full buffet
breakfast for each member of your team and coaching staff for each day of
the tournament (Liberty will not be providing a continental breakfast
because of this offer from the hotel) and newly renovated rooms.  Call the
hotel directly at (804) 847-4424.  Reservations must be made by October 26,
2000.  After that date you are on your own and the rate will increase.
Please mention you are attending the Liberty University Debate Tournament.
If you have trouble making reservations, call us and we will assist you in
finding rooms.


Liberty University Debate