15 passenger vans may help safety

Tue Aug 28 12:38:45 CDT 2001

I typically stay out of these discussion threads, but since my name was 
envolked I'll put in my two-cents worth.  If any of this repeats points made 
in previous emails, I apologise.

It's rather interesting that the issue of van safety has focused exclusivley 
on the driver and potential weather problems.  I've driven these vans 
through undergrad and now I drive my U Chicago team.  In undergrad and even 
in my High School debating days we had a rule that the person sitting in the 
front seat had to wear a seatbelt as well as the person sitting in the 
middle of the first bench seat and the driver.  While I know these vans, and 
debate trips in general, don't led themselves to being restrained in the 
van, even the use of lap belts can make all the difference in an accident.  
In the event of bad weather, everybody in the van was required to be 
restrained.

As a team with very limited resources we would be unable to travel over half 
the team, and even then to a very limited regional schedule, without the use 
of the 15 passenger vans.  I understand the worries of less experienced 
drivers and the risks of poor weather, but those can be mitigated by extra 
safety precautions (i.e. seatbelts, extra certification by coach/school for 
drivers, restrictions on drivable hours, etc.)  As for my team, we will 
continue to use the 15 passenger vans as long as we are allowed.  We plan on 
traveling only during daylight hours and the seatbelt rule of which I spoke 
will be enforced.

Cheers,
Craig Hunter
Coach, Univ. of Chicago

>From: "Laura" <lesjober at midway.uchicago.edu>
>To: "Mike Bauer" <mbauer2 at gw.bsu.edu>, <EDEBATE at ndtceda.com>
>Subject: Re: 15 passenger vans may help safety
>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:07:41 -0700
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>I don't know how I feel about this issue - but here's some thoughts that
>might add to the discussion.
>
>Chicago drove to William Jewell last year, nine people in a 15 passenger
>van.  Had we not driven, we certainly would not have been able to go, and 
>it
>was an excellent tournament.  Craig, our grad-student-coach-guy, could not
>go, which left me (an undergrad) as the only qualified driver for a 12 hour
>drive.  Chicago planned to leave for the tournament after Friday school to
>make up for the sure missing Monday involved in the tournament.  I was thus
>scheduled to drive through Friday night, alone.  I recruited a very dear
>(and very appreciated) personal friend to help with the driving.  He was
>also 23.  At the time, I had the "if this is what we have to do to get 
>there
>. .. " mentality.  14 hours later, however, still with an hour remaining in
>a slow, tiring drive and two and a half hours behind a jackknifed truck on 
>a
>bridge, we let an unqualified driver drive the van, because she was awake,
>and we were both dead tired. Chicago went to rounds on Saturday with no
>sleep, and slept through a round on Sunday morning.  After Chicago won the
>JV division, around 9 pm on Monday night, we had to leave because I had to
>work on Tuesday.  We drove through a night again, through heavy fog and
>snow.
>     When I think of the number of lives we risked on that trip, I am just
>thankful that something bad didn't happen to the people on the trip.  I am
>convinced that there should be rules about driving the vans - (the only 
>rule
>for driving rental vans at Chicago is you have to be 21, there are no 
>school
>vans).  Some sort of time limits or something seem reasonable in light of
>this.
>     Still, I have been driving 15 passenger vans for four years, and as
>vehicles, they seem worth keeping in our fleets.  You certainly have to be 
>a
>little more careful than you do driving something smaller; you weigh more,
>and the vehicle is a little top-and-back heavy, which makes for interesting
>van positions if you mess up.  I did put a 15 passenger van in a ditch
>once - it did end up on its side rather than upright.  At the same time,
>that could have been avoided by my knowing the slightest thing about 
>driving
>in the snow, and plenty of cars flip too.  The bottom line is that a safe
>driver in a 15 passenger van who knows the logistics of their vehicle seems
>safe to me.
>     Chicago, after hearing our Jewell horror story, agreed that the money 
>to
>fly to that tournament ought be added to our budget, before any other 
>budget
>negotiations.  But, also as a result, they are considering different
>limitations/elimination of the 15 passenger van. Seems to me though, that 
>we
>might suggest to our schools time restrictions, and other safety measures,
>like driving tests, in order to keep these useful vehicles at our disposal.
>
>Laura Sjoberg
>(formerly of Chicago Debate)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mike Bauer <mbauer2 at gw.bsu.edu>
>To: <EDEBATE at ndtceda.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:14 PM
>Subject: 15 passenger vans may help safety
>
>
> > I realize the potential hazards that these vans present and this may be
>saving my life but I can't help thinking that more people may be put into
>danger when I or our IE team uses 3 or 4 seven passenger vans to make up 
>for
>the loss of the 15's.  I am very afraid of having grads and especially
>undergrads driving the extra vans that will now be necessary to get the
>entire team to a tournament.  Having less experienced drivers be 
>responsible
>for the lives of other team members scares me to death.  Also, we now do 
>not
>have the "back up" driver if someone is tired or sick.  And quite simply,
>the more vehicles I have on the road, the better the chance of an accident
>to one of them.  I don't  have the answers and for a small program like
>mine, the doubling of transportation costs, 7 and 15's cost the same here,
>means at least one less tournament for us to attend.
> > Mike Bauer
> >
>

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