[eDebate] (no subject)

Wed Nov 7 19:44:31 CST 2001

So clearly we should shut down the hospitals that save millions of lives
because some people develop iatrogenic disease, abolish due process because
some public defenders can't prove their clients aren't flight or danger
risks, end philanthropy because some givers have self-interested motives,
and fight no war unless is can be a perfect one, no matter how many lives
are threatened by inaction.  The problem with your "do no evil" principle is
that it allows so much more evil to flourish.

And, the best way to sleep at night under American capitalism is to go to
work every morning.

Who's coercing you?

-----Original Message-----
From: jack stroube [mailto:jackattack7 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 4:29 PM
To: Jack Minnear; edebate at ndtceda.com
Subject: Re: [eDebate] (no subject)

jack minnwAER

do you have any blankets inoculated w small pox?  it's starting to get cold 
outside these nights...we need a progressive american giver to help us out 
of this one...seen any doctors lately, we're also dealing w 
iatrogenesis...or any lawyers, we got detention trigger happiness 
syndrome...any philantropists, we need a tax-right off...any pharmacists, we

need more painkilling ways of thinking to help us sleep at night under the 
exploitation and coercion of brutal proud american capitalism...

slf

>From: Jack Minnear <jminnear at gemstar.com>
>To: "'edebate at ndtceda.com'" <edebate at ndtceda.com>
>Subject: Re: [eDebate] (no subject)
>Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:29:46 -0800
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>
>I've got nothing figured out.  Never claimed to.  My belief is only this:
>you, Kevin, are not a nihilist if you believe "the social order is
>unreasonable."  You make a slew of affirmative, normative claims about the
>evils of capitalism, technology and American society.  In short, you have a
>belief system.  I think a nihilist would be unable to come to definitive
>conclusions, or frankly any conclusions about the things you opine on.  No
>coherent epistemology means that the world is complex and unknowable, not
>that America is evil, but we are all screwed anyway until we are swept away
>by Nature like so much garbage.  My understanding is that a nihilist would
>be agnostic on the question of whether American capitalism is oppressive or
>not.
>
>What I embrace is a post-nihilist existentialism.  After you establish that
>there is no point of stability for your beliefs, nothing that can serve as
>point of Archimedes to form a valid worldview, what do you do?  I say you 
>do
>whatever it may be that allows you to create meaning for yourself.
>Construct a world that makes some visceral sense to yourself and run with
>it.  I think you have done this, and I applaud you for it.  This doesn't
>mean that I am not interested in challenging it.
>
>  What I was reacting to in your earlier post is the idea that, within your
>belief structure, there is no way to help people.  Contrary to what you 
>say,
>there is hope.  Like getting involved in the life of someone less fortunate
>than yourself.  To me, this is a million times more progressive that being
>gripped in analytical trap created by postmodernists.  By defining it as
>useless, you prove my point about analysis-paralysis.  There was a card we
>used to read against Critical Legal Studies that I always thought was very
>good: it was the lines of "You law professors sit around and think about my
>false consciousness all you want, but when my family needs heat, I'm sure 
>as
>hell going to employ my legal rights under the lease agreement to get it."
>All I'm saying is live small if you have to, but do something.  I think 
>that
>raging against the machine IS like smoking pot: a false consciousness that
>makes you feel like you are acting progressively, but more likely just
>atrophies your mind and body.  I say get out there and do something.  But,
>of course, live as you like.
>
>Your friend,
>Jack
>
> >dear volks: by jack minnear's definition (which corresponds to a
>well-read philosophical definition) 'nihilism' means a belief that there
>exist 'serious problems constructing any coherent epistemology' - this is a
>very technical way of describing how i feel, which is to say, i do not 
>think
>
>its possible to live a meaingful life today; in a social order so
>unreasonable, i do not think (as habermas does) that there's some 
>reasonable
>
>kritik i can salvage (with universal pragmatics in one hand and
>communicative rationality in the other) to make this all better; late
>technological crapitalism already imposes an epistemology on us all, so 
>that
>
>all our ways of reasoning inevitabely ossify this system, and i see no
>escape from this exploitation, except (perhaps) to deny reason itself (in 
>my
>
>dis-reasonable opinion) and to go crazy, that is, a refusal to re-cognize a
>normal humanistic subject (who works and buys things and feels relative
>happy) and a cherishing of the uselessness of art, or the meainglessness of
>life (cuz if its not valuable, its not sellable, and then its not so 
>without
>
>soul) - jack claims i'm not nihilistic, then repeats exactly what i said in
>my previous post: he writes that i have 'zero chance of doing anything' and
>i agree, and he writes 'sitting around smoking pot and fretting about 
>things
>
>amounts to nothing' and again i agree (except that i disagree with that
>implicitly disparaging remark about what i consider to be a meditative and
>sacremental ritual (respected by many world cultures, especially the
>rastafarians)), but look closely, jack doesn't feel any necessity to prove
>that there *is* hope, he believes (as many others) that merely 
>charaterizing
>
>my beliefs as hopeless (which i already conceded) somehow gets him
>somewhere: however, at issue here i think is that there's no possibility to
>get anywhere anymore, and his inability to articulate a positive argument
>displays this very aptly; he cannot let himself come too close to the abyss
>because he's got to 'work hard to achieve material success,' and make no
>mistake, this attempt to 'GAIN some palpable betterment of the world' comes
>at the direct expense of other's LOSSES, which by result, inherently 
>entails
>
>being willing to kill (other) PEOPLE for (your) THINGS; now obviously jack
>feels that his defense of war puts him an ethical step above those 
>'students
>
>for a free tibet' who's actions are only 'self-serving' (isn't that the
>motto of capitalist dogma: serve yourself?) and amount to nothing (amount
>$$$ being the operative word): i on the other hand cannot agree- if we're
>doing nothing, its because nothing can be fucking done, you suggest
>mentoring someone or making a lot of money for charities, but that won't
>change a fucking thing (although those things might be considered
>intrsically valuable, which is also to say, useless), the empire that 
>levels
>
>us all into the homogenizing melting pot still wins, its indeed hopeless,
>jack, and if you need to imagine that the media images presented to you on
>the cave wall propaganda are real in order for you to have a healthy diet
>and get erections and feel good about your profitable pscyhe, then go 
>ahead,
>
>but for those of us who cannot feel good about what we're complicit in, for
>those who know we're as guilty as the nazi (with slightly more nuanced
>rhetorical devices), for me (who wastes my own money, not my parent's, 
>thank
>
>you very much ... i'm a 'self-made' nihilist ;-) i think that its fair (by
>your technocrapitalist standards, not mine) to call every american who 
>funds
>
>this 'crusade' a 'legitimate military target,' you suggest that not being
>willing to kill others, excuse me, defend onself, is 'cowardice,' but i
>agree with gandhi on this question, it takes much more courage to be 
>willing
>
>to let yourself be killed than to kill in return, that's the ethic we'll
>never live up to, 'to rather let oneself perish than hate and fear and
>rather twice perish than to make oneself hated and feared' (that's nihilist
>nietzsche) ... anyway, i've got no revolution to plan because you're right:
>it will never go down, the majority of americans think exactly the way you
>do, the nationalist epistemelogy of venegence supports all you have to say,
>and the american empire has for the most part conquered the globe, you've
>won, you're city on a hill is sound, i'm no threat (footnote: the only 
>thing
>
>i'm optimistic about is that climate change will probably cause humynity's
>extinction and nature will find its balance again, in short, my only hope 
>is
>
>self-destruction for the ultimate betterment of all the other life on this
>planet), in fact reading this e-mail is pointless, so go make money (cuz
>that's all time is for anyway, right?), you needn't heed the words of this
>loon, you're sane and you've got it all figured out ... and you accused me
>of a manichean worldview :) :luv,kev
>
>
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