edebate malthus bullshit

Sun Sep 2 01:59:17 CDT 2001

hey, don't be so competitive:)

This crap only deserves wading through because there are issues here that
go beyond stroube's inability to see any trees for the bark.  As much as 
this could be about a van accident or a disgruntled guy from dallas, the plight
of people in Palestine and Israel should not be reduced to some personal
bullshit that has little validity or application.

INSTEAD, what are the parallels and extensions between occupation/genocide
and the "Indian Country" question?

are the consequences of waste dumping and prohibiting language and geographic
segregation analogous?

what about the historical comparison?  Is the Palestine/Israel dispute at
the same
point or place as the genocide and assimilation of indig. peoples in the US?
When colonists appropriated the traits and the rituals of the original
residents of
the Americas to resist European rule, would that be similar to "resettlement"
or more similar to the peace process? 

are problems with the phrase "Indian" also inherent in "Arab" or not?

what is "Indian Country" if it isn't a type of country in the US Country?

what constitutes a country?  people? land? language? governing? a combination?

what kind of control has to exist in the first place in order to be
increased?  

any citations that link these issues?

anyone else think lots of folks will be flipping neg?

how could the topic not be about the SouthAsian subcontinent (as well)?

kevin
spide(r)bate

>
>>From: "kevin kuswa" <kkuswa at richmond.edu>
>>To: "jack stroube" <jackattack7 at hotmail.com>, <edebate at ndtceda.com>
>>Subject: Re: edebate malthus bullshit
>>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:40:18 -0400
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>>jack,
>>
>>Despite your bullshit personal attacks against me over the past few months,
>>I respect your cause here and I think all of us should engage in this issue
>>as much as possible.  Congdon was right on in his message.  On the other
>>hand, the link between competitive debate and the oppression of 
>>Palestinians
>>is pretty tenuous, especially in comparison to your links to zionism.  
>>Thus,
>>although this is a short message, I encourage you to re-think your 
>>hostility
>>to "da bait" so that it stops distracting from other valuable stuff you are
>>doing.  How can you claim, for instance, that filibuster is an American
>>tradition you are willing to defend at the same time that you dismiss all
>>the effects of competitive debate?  This is not to say that debate (or even
>>competitive NDT/CEDA debate) is somehow removed from the "middle east"
>>issues ('cause it ain't), but that the generic nature of your link is 
>>posing
>>an obstacle to the alliances and mobilization you would be generating
>>otherwise.
>>
>>kevin kuswa
>>spide(r)bate
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "jack stroube" <jackattack7 at hotmail.com>
>>To: <edebate at ndtceda.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 6:59 PM
>>Subject: edebate malthus bullshit
>>
>>
>> > doyle, stefan and co,
>> >
>> > talk about some crap.  electronic limitations to the ability of the
>> > list-serv to sustain the breakdown of zionist rule in debate and
>> > think-tanks.  whimpering "people will unsubscribe" as if that were some
>>kind
>> > martial law rational scientist overpop evaluation THAT IS YOUR "FREE
>>SPEECH"
>> > ALIBI.
>> >
>> > COMPETITIVE DEBATE AND THE CSIS ARE PART OF THE ZIONISM PROBLEM.
>> >
>> > massive IGNORANCE PERVADES such that markowitz can claim that the
>> > palestinians voluntarily left their homes in 1948 when the fucking
>>zionists
>> > brutally dispossessed them and have been lying about for over 50 years 
>>so
>> > that americans have been so fucking confused and brainwashed that this
>>shit
>> > flies without rebuke as in the most recent example of markowitz.
>> >
>> > also shit that flies is that the palestinians were never distinguishe as
>>an
>> > arab sub-group before 1968 in any international legal documentation.
>>again
>> > flies with only my rebuke.  massive ignorance pervades.  UN RESOLUTION 
>>183
>> > of 1948.  shouldn't have to get technical since that line is atrocious,
>> > racist, and potentially genocidal.
>> >
>> > the lenni brenner chapter is crucial and omitted from the "free and open
>> > discussion" in competitive zionist-biased debates.  THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT
>>WAS
>> > COMPLICIT WITH THE DEATH OF THOUSANDS OF HUNGARIAN JEWS AND THE REFUSAL 
>>TO
>> > BOMB THE ROADS TO AUSCHWITZ AND OTHER GAS CHAMBERS BECAUSE THEY PUT A
>> > PRIORITY ON A FUTURE HOMELAND OVER THE DEATH OF JEWS.  THEY PROVED THAT
>> > DIASPORA FAILS.
>> >
>> > so far on edebate there has been no answer to lenni brenner.  i think 
>>this
>> > bodes well for putting this chapter from Zionism in the Age of Dictators
>> > into high school and college classroom discussions as well as "peace
>>process
>> > DA" arguments and "holocaust trivialization" arguments that bolster the
>> > pervasive zionism of the debate and think-tank establishments.
>> >
>> > also so far unseen in the discussion is the structure of the Jewish
>>National
>> > Fund such that when land is appropriated to the "Land of Israel" it is 
>>for
>> > the exlusive use of Jews only which means that land taken from
>>palestinians
>> > can not even be leased back to them.  THIS FACT IS KNOWN BY ISRAELIS AND
>> > SUGAR COAT OMITTED FOR THE RIDICULOUS AMERICAN ZIONISTS WHO ACTUALLY
>>BELIEVE
>> > ISRAELI IS A "DEMOCRACY".  THIS IS FUCKING APARTHEID AND EXPULSION IS IN
>>THE
>> > PROCESS and you guys are putting up the edebate malthus "if everyone did
>> > this about an issue important to them the list would collapse"
>> > trivialization strat.  we will remember you as those who tried to push
>>this
>> > discussion into "private backchannels" while the palestinians were being
>> > driven into sea.  THIS IS A SIEGE.  SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.  FILIBUSTER 
>>IS
>> > AN AMERICAN TRADITION.
>> >
>> > you fundamentally misrepresent the overwhelming disproportionate nature 
>>of
>> > zionist cultural hegemony through the media including academic debate 
>>and
>> > pernicious lexis-nexis.  you assume an even keel and then go on to all
>>sorts
>> > of hypothetical threat construction to justify censorship.
>> >
>> > referees get out  --  this is an "adult" list serv -- "free from 
>>tutelage"
>> > and invisible arbitrary rules to be constructed by the discussion 
>>managers
>> > who should leave their list-serv expertise at the door.
>> >
>> > too late idiots, the bomb has gone off.
>> >
>> > you can't still on a moving train.  neutrality is bullshit.  declare 
>>sides
>> > or remain a coward.
>> >
>> > adios meester adios
>> > atacckcss
>> >
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