[eDebate] Re: African American's Graduation Rate

Mon Mar 4 23:51:07 CST 2002

This whole discussion started as the result of an ESPN expose on particular 
colleges graduation rates.  There is no doubt that there many colleges do 
graduate athletes that are poor and of color.  Their are some colleges that 
(Cincinatti) are atrocious at graduating players.  Josh

>From: "Harris, Scott L" <sharris at ku.edu>
>To: "'Joshua Hoe'" <ifjxh at hotmail.com>,        "Edebate (E-mail)"  
><edebate at ndtceda.com>
>Subject: RE: [eDebate] Re: African American's Graduation Rate
>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:25:27 -0600
>
>
>Some interesting data taken directly from the most recent NCAA graduation
>report not included in the ESPN report on 36 institutions.  The term 
>'black'
>is the NCAA's not mine.  Not trying to refute any arguments but the data is
>certainly interesting.
>
>Graduation rate for Black male student athletes 42%
>Graduation rate for black males in the general student body 31%
>
>Graduation rate for Division 1 black male basketball players 35%
>Graduation rate for black males in the general student body 31%
>
>Graduation rate for Division 1 black female basketball players 61%
>Graduation rate for black females in the general student body 42%
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joshua Hoe [mailto:ifjxh at hotmail.com]
>Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 4:15 PM
>To: sharris at KU.EDU; Ivan.Susak at asu.edu; edebate at ndtceda.com
>Subject: RE: [eDebate] Re: African American's Graduation Rate
>
>
>Hmmmmmmm.........well I definately am a sports fan but is that really a
>reason I should not be in favor of change?  I have never been a real fan of
>the love em or leave em argument.  Josh
>
>
> >From: "Harris, Scott L" <sharris at ku.edu>
> >To: 'Joshua Hoe' <ifjxh at hotmail.com>, Ivan.Susak at asu.edu,
> >edebate at ndtceda.com
> >Subject: RE: [eDebate] Re: African American's Graduation Rate
> >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:10:44 -0600
> >
> >
> >I'm sure Josh and Ede don't watch NCAA basketball or football.  I'm sure
> >their not hypocritical enough to decry the exploitation of inner city
> >youths
> >and yet root for them to perform for their entertainment.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Joshua Hoe [mailto:ifjxh at hotmail.com]
> >Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:43 PM
> >To: Ivan.Susak at asu.edu; edebate at ndtceda.com
> >Subject: Re: [eDebate] Re: African American's Graduation Rate
> >
> >
> >I have to disagree with you here Croation Sensation :).
> >
> >First, basketball and football actively work against graduation and
> >studying
> >
> >in many ways at many programs.  In point of fact, it could be argued that
> >many coaches could give a damn if their players graduate as long as they
> >are
> >
> >at practice every day.  In many instances, unprepared college student who
> >can play ball is promised the moon the stars and the sun to come play at 
>a
> >school with some track record for professional atheletes.  That player is
> >then milked for as long as he/she will stay in school.  That player is 
>not
> >offered remedial tutoring or given adequate study time for someone who is
> >not really ready for college but is expected to give about eight to ten
> >hours a day minimum to practice and training for the sport they are in.  
>Is
> >the failure of that student to learn "lack of responsibility" on the
> >students part?  What if, as often happens, that student gets injured and
> >loses the scholarship and any chance of playing in the pros?  The point 
>is
> >that many coaches make education a LOW priority if a priority for 
>students
> >at all at the same time the NCAA acts like they are performing sacred
> >academic rituals by not paying players.  It is hypocricy, it is
> >exploitation, and it is WRONG!
> >
> > >First, individuals have consistently said that the university has a
> > >responsibility to educate.  However, doesn't the student-athlete or
> > >student-debater or student-whatever have the EXACT same if not LARGER
> > >responsibility to learn?  At what point have the students stopped being
> > >accountable for the actions they take and the choices they make.  Maybe
> > >this is why i have more respect for current successful NBA stars such 
>as
> > >Shane Battier (sp?) and Tim Duncan.  Those two made the choice to take
> > >advantage of the excellent universities they were at and to obtain 
>their
> > >college education.  In fact, if I remember correctly Tim Duncan passed 
>up
> > >the possibility to enter the draft early because he promissed his 
>mother
> >he
> >
> > >would obtain the college degree.
> >
> >I would contend that Shane Battier and Tim Duncan were very atypical of 
>the
> >college athlete.  In addition, both went to programs where academics are
> >actively encouraged.  Example, UK was having trouble keeping basketball
> >players elligible so they built a junior college on the campus of UK to
> >sneak students through the elligibility process - they could play for UK
> >but
> >
> >did not have the meet the rigor of a UK education and therefore decrease
> >practice time.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Second, this thread seems to espouse one of the problems I see with
> >society
> >
> > >at large.  The problem being one's pawning off of problems,
> >disadvantages,
> > >failures onto another person/thing/institution, whatever it may be.
> >Modern
> >
> > >society and students seem to have a lack of accountability for 
>everything
> > >they do.  Its always somebody elses fault.
> >
> >That is absurd...It is not a poor, uneducated, inner-city persons fault
> >that
> >
> >they were born into poverty.  There is this thing called white flight 
>that
> >happened siphoning off the majority of school funding for inner-city
> >schools....Hence, the quality of teachers and programs for at-risk kids 
>in
> >inner-cities could charitably be called poor.  In fact, in response to
> >desegregation whites created private schools like Brophy College Prep, 
>and
> >Greenhill, and Heritage Hall, and St. Marks so that they would not have 
>to
> >intermingle with poor children and children of colr.  While those schools
> >are now integrated they are still obviously elitist and classist.  If you
> >had been born of a different situation YOU could not have had the 
>education
> >you have had.  To say that we should be responsible for our actions is 
>not
> >to say that there is responsibility for society to share.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Finally, I am not saying that the NCAA is not corrupt or that the
> > >university doesn't care about the money that these athletes bring in.
> > >There definetly should be change.  However, there are definetly two 
>sides
> > >to the coin that people are forgetting.  And equating college athletics
> > >with slavery is quite sickening.
> >
> >I have to disagree once again....I did not equate College athletics with
> >slavery I called it a slave system for those who are already in the 
>system.
> >
> >There is a rigid and inflexible and frequently exploitative code through
> >which college athletes are forced to adhere to the NCAA's edicts.  There 
>is
> >a difference and it is only an Ad Hom to say it is "sickening" for me to
> >say
> >
> >that.
> >
> > >
> > >Out of curiousity does anyone know what the graduation rate is for
> > >student-athelets playing ANY sport, particularly at division one 
>schools?
> >
> >About 45% to 55%...In other words, at least 40% higher than many 
>prominant
> >college programs.
> >
> >Josh
> >
> >
> >
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