[eDebate] dean, da crypto-fascist disasta

Tue Dec 16 12:56:39 CST 2003

Duane:

Your arguments seem to have the same internal inconsitency as those who
argue that Dean is McGovern and then argue that Dean is Gingrich.  You
attack Dean for being not in favor of tax cuts and then you attack him for
being in favor of tax cuts.  Which is it?  I also grow tired of your
apparent selective reading choices.  Several times now I have proven these
claims false.  Why is it that you seem to know in-depth about Dean's tax
breaks for captive insurance companies but don't know jack taco about his
LOWERING the marginal income tax rate in Vermont...TWICE...even while
adopting fiscally responsible programs that helped Vermont be one of the
ONLY states to weather the recession WITHOUT a defecit?  Who exactly are you
reading and why?  

It's just incredibly frustrating to keep being asked to defend a candidate
that is NOT Howard Dean but some fabricated version of him designed by
Bushco, the right-wing media, and a bunch of scared Democratic opponents who
are being TROUNCED by Dean in the areas of the country where people have a
greater opportunity to know the REAL guy.  And even Democrats who know
better respond NOT with getting off their asses and revealing the TRUTH, but
by sitting on their asses and saying "well....everyon is going to THINK this
about Howard Dean even if it's not true,,,so I'm voting for someone else."

Coop 

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Hyland [mailto:privethedge at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 1:22 PM
To: Christopher Cooper; 'Jack Stroube'; edebate at ndtceda.com
Cc: dan at slack.net
Subject: RE: [eDebate] dean, da crypto-fascist disasta

<< 1. Media and politicians who were saying a year ago that Dean can't win
the nomination are the same people now who are saying he can't beat Bush.
They were wrong a year ago, and they're wrong now. >>

I don't believe there is a way for Dean to beat Bush. What is he going to
run on "I"m going to raise your taxes" isn't going to resonate well if the
economy keeps going like it's on rocket fuel. Neither is "Bush was wrong on
Iraq" while it's true that Bush lied, I think, Bush is just going to say
'well, under my way of doing things we got Sadaam..Under President Dean,
he'd still be in power.." While you might argue over the fate of Iraq - I
think the argument that Bush landed a powerful, brutal, and corrupt dictator
while Dean's stance would have left him in power is a powerful message. I'm
not saying, Chris, that Dean CAN'T win - I'm just giving better odds that he
WON't - It's two different things.

2. Dems outnumber Repubs in America.  Dean is energizing the base of the Dem
Party in ways we haven't seen in decades.  By bringing Dems back into the
process, Dean will also bring more voters to the polls. >>

Not true - the polls all show that the differences, if any, are marginal.
And, on the issues that Dean trumpets - people in key voting areas - the
industrial midwest, the south - all tend to trend highly conservative.

3. Dean has shown, beyond question, that he can raise more money than any
other Dem.  It will take big bucks to beat Bush, and Dean's the only Dem who
can do that.  Stroube's argument that this is $$$ coming from Republicans
who want Dean as the opponent, is a fantasy-land.  It ignores that this
money represents 160,000 contributors at about $77 a pop. >>

No - well, yes..somewhat..but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

4. Dean appeals to centrists; swing voters.  He governed as a centrist, and
but for his opposition to the war in Iraq and his support of "civil unions,"
campaigns on policies that appeal to middle-america. >>

Please - he talks tough against "tax breaks for Enron" but now it's been
released in the Boston Globe (12/12/03) that he though nothing of giving tax
breaks to Enron when he was the govenor of Vermont, and captive insurance
firms were the issue. In fact, let's talk about the whole tax breaks for the
captive insurance industry deal - Dean makes a point of talking about how
tax breaks for the wealthy and businesses are bad - but he's just as guilty
of it. Also - I'm still waiting for Dean to clarify if he knows the Soviet
Union is out of business, or if he'd care to be more specific about how much
of a threat Iraq was to the US - given the conflict between his 2002
statements on Face the Nation and what he says now.

5. Gun control.  Though not often discussed, support for federal gun control
laws was a major reason behind Gore's defeat in the south.  In particular
Arkansas, Tennessee and West Virginia.  Dean's gun control policy allows
states to define their needs. >>

Here, I agree with Dean. It's one of hte few things I agree with him on.

6. Lessons from 2000.  Are more people going to vote for Bush in 2004 than
in 2000?  Polls don't suggest that at all.  All major polls show Bush still
at 50%.  The country remains evenly divided (and Dems won the popular vote
in 2000).  With that in mind, Dean needs only to win one state Gore lost in
2000 and he's in the White House.  Even if Florida is beyond reach (and I
doubt that), several "swing" states could go either way. >>

I doubt this - it will hinge on the economy and the state of the world next
year. If it's good - poll after poll tends to favor those who are in office.

7 >>. Unemployment.  Repubs say the economy is recovering.  Sure, for the
wealthy.  But the fact is, this is, so far, a jobless recovery.    As long
as the economy isn't stimulating employment, there's a campaign theme only
an insurgent can utilize: "Jobs, jobs, jobs." >>

The unemployment rate is dropping, albiet slowly - about .10 per month or so
- and unemployment is a lagging indicator anyway. Data today suggests that
manufacturing is taking off, and that the home building market is red hot
again. With this means new jobs will be coming. Also, in addition to jobs -
data shows that personal income in rising again - couple that to the tax
refunds that will be coming in April and people will be feeling pretty good
about life. Remember - Reagan had an extremely easy win in '84 even with
high unemployment - I wouldn't put much hopes in the job situation - 1)
President's don't create jobs, businesses do - that's what it really is
about, 2) There is nothing that says that if Dean is elected that the trend
of exporting jobs won't continue - people do that fo the bottom line, not
for any other reason.

Nope - I think the economy as an issue - with the trends going now - is not
an issue you can weigh the election on. It might change, of course, at which
point I'll change my views.

8.  For answers to the "Bush caught Saddam" arg, see my blog post at
www.OutForDean.com 

As for questions about Dean being a "liberal" or how he handled the civil
unions matter, etc. I suggest everyone check out the new book "Howard Dean:
A Citizen's Guide to the Man Who WOuld be President" by a team of reporters
who covered Dean when he was Governor of Vermont.  It's a fair and balanced
perspective. >>

Again, I agree with Dean on Civiv Unions - but hte South won't.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't vote democratic - I am - but you should
vote for Leiberman, or even Kerry (who seemed rational last night) - someone
with a shot. Dean will be behind before it even gets going.

Duane

Which we might be able to say of Stroube...if he stayed on his lithium. 

Coop 

"You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson

"It is Not our Abilities Which Make Us Who We are, It is our Choices." A.
Dumbledore, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry

"They weren't Called the Dark Ages because they were Dark." Dr. Daniel
Jackson, SG-1

"What, do you want to tempt the wrath of whatever, from high atop the
thing?" Toby Zeigler

I'm feeling "earish" - Eeyore makes the Dictionary!!:)

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