[eDebate] novice

[Hurt, Cindy Marie]

I would just quickly like to respond to Andy Ellis arguments of how Lincoln
Douglas Debaters purpose unfair advantages over other non-ld novice
competitors.

1.	Flowing~ I did Lincoln Douglas Debate in High School, the Flowing in
LD is 1. at a slower pace 2.  Only takes one sheet of paper sideways for all
the speaches, this includes flowing a core value a value criterion, and
hopefully your competitior has sub points under their contentions. 
(I still can't flow in policy rounds very well I don't write simple
abrieviations I write out the entire tag of the card or what I can get of
it)

2.	Line by Line~ You have got to be joking me! Have you ever watched a
Lincoln
Douglas debate round?  Have you ever heard in a LD debate round someone say
off their number 1 cross apply my Locke quote...


As well as far as Time Allocation goes or Word Equity LD debate has none a
paragraph for one response is pretty much what you will hear in an LD round
not short blippy statements such as Non-Unique, Empirically Denied, No Link,
etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Ellis
To: edebate at ndtceda.com
Sent: 3/19/03 4:12 AM
Subject: [eDebate] novice

I beleive that there would be wide spread agreement amongst the coache
and the  debaters involved that these are decisons being made by
directors, though i dont discount that some debaters who could win jv
would want to debate in novice i think its largely the responsibility of
the directors to guide and ultimatly make these decisons and since rules
dont seem to constrain them there must be other ways of reaching thoise
making these decisons, and i wonder where some of those directors who
make theses are in this discussion, i understand that they are busy but
maybe next week? or the week after? You dont owe us an explanation, but
without one we are free to continue to guess at your motivation and from
what i am seeing that doesnt seem to cast you all in a good light, so
because i believe like kevin and beth that most of the people in this
activity are good folks, im with great interest awaiting their arrival
to the discussion(or any other directors who would like to join).

That being said what i think the ultimate problem is is that there are a
lot of skills that some of the ld folks already have that they only have
because they debated ld in high school, flowing, line by line etc are
not skills that you could learn from odel congress or extemp, sure note
taking precision and susinctness are skills that you could learn from
these and other pursuits but even if they are different ld still teaches
some skills that everbody else has to learn during theri novice years,
there are of course a plethora of advantages and i dont think we can
identify and correct for all of them, but cant we clearly identify the
advantages that ld has for novices versus people who dont have ld
experience?

So ultimatly i dont think the rule is a very effective way to go about
it, because as we have seen rules dont restrict this process they only
allow for punishments to be metted out and controversies to be started
when some directors get caught breaking the rules and others dont get
caught braking the rules, but the question is for those concerend about
making this better, is how do we reach the directors that are making
these decisons, quiet complementariy mentions that people should move up
dont work, and edebate messages are a start, and screamin and yellin
only cause debaters to close ranks around their directors, so what else
can the community do to check against this process?

I gotta backchannle message from a debater today who suggested that the
burden should be on the judges to deny ballots to these teams so that
their directors have no incentive to put them down divisions, its a
thought proking strategy that i ultimatly hope never gets employed,
because i dont want the debaters hurt, but the level of discontent is
growing and i fear that without some reassesment from the community on
this issue such direct action strategies will be employed, people are
pissed, becausei think many people have asked people they like nicely
and have basicaly been told to screw off, i think we can assess this and
all take a more ethical appraoch to this before it begins to get ugly or
we can continue to let it fester and force people to be angry
disenchanted and occasionaly disqualified.

Now lemme say i honestly wasnt directing this message at catholic,  we
speant nearly all  of our team in the ceda east and i unfortunatly never
got to see many of the catholic teams(nor really even knew about this
before this weekend), but your perspective on the issue has made this a
more valuble and open discussion, and i would strongly encourage
rochesters participation in this discussion as well, we all want the
fairist playing field and the best experience for all of our students,
and im sure as a community we can give voice to those on all sides of
this issue.

Andy Ellis
Marist 
-- 
Debate Information Group
http://dig.ndtceda.com/
-- 
Debate Information Group
http://dig.ndtceda.com/

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