From hansonjb Thu May 1 03:23:36 2003 From: hansonjb (Jim Hanson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 01:23:36 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Forensic Nationals Dates (COFO page) Message-ID: <003201c30fba$fbb961f0$e580520c@whitman.edu> michael dreher asked me to post this; it provides a link to a page with information on dates and locations for various national tournaments (eg ceda nats, npte, npda nats, ndt, etc.). jim hanson :) hansonjb at whitman.edu >This addresses a question Skip Rutledge posed on the parli >listserve. There is a page for the Council of Forensics Organizations >that lists all of the nationals tournament dates. I list it for the >following three reasons: > >1. For those looking for Nationals dates, and contact information for >the >organizations, they're all in one place: >http://www.nationalforensics.org/cofo.html > >2. If there are incorrect dates for organizations (I have updated >DSR-TKA >and Novice Nationals; I'm sure there are others), please let me know that >information, and I'll fix them. > >3. I need some information for some of the debate organizations - if >you >have that information, please backchannel me, and I'll put it on the page. > >Thanks for your time... > >Michael Dreher >Director of Forensics, Bethel College (MN) >NFA/NPDA Webmaster >mdreher at bethel.edu >Office: 651-638-6052 From let_the_american_empire_burn Thu May 1 04:35:06 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 04:35:06 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] A Question for War Justifiers Message-ID: Duane's moral relativism, equation one: as long as the USA's action is better than X, then said action is justified, where X equals Adolt Hitler or Saddam Hussien or whomever else is the evildoer the USA is fighting against. therefore, one doesn't weigh the alternatives and attempt to arrive at the solution with the less innocent lives lost or with the most self-determination rights protected - that's leftist garbage; instead one stands firmly by any action the USA decides upon short of open genocide. Question: politicians lied to the american people to rally support for the war? Duane's answer: yes they did, and i'm okay with that. Q: populated areas were bombed and hospitals and museums looted because there were insufficient ground forces? D: that's fine and ... Q: the kurds aren't getting a homeland? D: ... dandy. Q: 40% of the country is still without electricity and 5 million people have no access to sanitary water? D: who cares about the iraqi people, they're liberated, aren't they? Q: protesters throwing rocks are being shot in the streets? D: the soldiers say the protesters fired first, and how can they be expected to tell the difference between a grenade and a rock? Q: us aid in refusing an unsecretive bidding process has awarded all 8 prime contracts for iraqi reconstruction to fat cat american firms? D: well you can't expect us not to make a profit off the war; after all, we started it. Duane's actual words: "Sure...they lied. Show me a politician that hasn't, and you've got a case." first, George Washington, but second, bet you like the Gulf of Tonken resolution, huh? "There is nobody here that can say the Iraqi people aren't better off today, not being raped, tortured, beaten, ran through shredders, than they were when they were suffering those things." yes, and they'd probably be better off under Castro than Hussien - is this an argument for letting Castro conquer Iraq? if one wants to act in an ethical manner (as opposed to making excuses for unethical acts), then one must take an exhaustive accounting of what is possible and push our actions as near as we can to what we find good. what i hear the anti-war folks on this list making is a very naunced criticism that takes into account the historical contexts and the specific metholodies at work; what i hear the pro-war folks on this list saying is that as long as whatever the USA did and continues to do is better than what a brutal fuck like Saddam Hussien would do, then breaking some eggs is justified. this explains why the rank apologists must continually ignore the specific questions and alternatives i raise. and we should remember that there are thousands of innocent iraqis who died needlessly and will not live to see their freedom (and let's hope it is freedom). .k ps. Duane: "the Civil War started out as a war to unite the nation, it morphs, in late 1862, into a war to free the slaves. At the end, the slaves are free...should we hate that fact, because freeing hte slaves wasn't the agenda of the North from the start?" so a few hundred thousand americans lost their lives for a fucking lie, and we shouldn't hate that fact? so a state's right of secession was eviserated by a tyrannical federal government, and we shouldn't hate that fact? so the abolitionists who were criticizing lincoln during war-time had their papers shut down, and we shouldn't hate that fact? so john brown was hung, and we shouldn't hate that fact? that young men and womyn die on battlefields for what they believe are good purposes while their leaders lie about their true agendas is a fact i hope everyone hates. that someone would fight in world war two to save the jews, while fdr refused to stop the holocaust while committing atrocities all his own at dresden, that someone would fight the civil war to free the slaves, while lincoln refused to free those slaves in the border states, that someone would fight now to free the iraqi people, while bush lies - all of these are facts to hate. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From cpwiii Thu May 1 06:44:01 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 06:44:01 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] student rep vote for topic committee Message-ID: <000601c30fd6$f6b26410$6bfd4cd8@cpwiii> Probably dated myself with this OLD expression, which is originally "Whose ox is gored?"--meaning a person's loss, like if this tax increase is passed I'll lose my business. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/cc830ab4/attachment.htm From mmk_savant Thu May 1 08:46:57 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 06:46:57 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: Sanchez wrote: "what i hear the anti-war blah blah very nuanced blah blah blah" right. they are all defending having left Saddam and Sons in power. that's why the comparison is between what actually happened and the counterfactual of having left Saddam and Sons in power. dumbass. and you used "very nuanced" to describe a pile of crap: lousy solvency presses, dropping impacts, handwaving toward workability, and unlinked unimpacted disads. that makes you a double-stuffed dumbass. in your defense, you aren't defending having left Saddam and Sons in power. you are defending your own crack-pot "should have armed and trained and assisted-with-airpower the Kurds 12 years ago so they could get their own state" counterplan. you know, a counterplan with no solvency advocate or even evidence. so, you know, the functional equivalent of advocating leaving Saddam and Sons in power. the really funny thing about that is you accuse me of being a statist or an apologist of statism or some such crap. hey, upside-down double-stuffed dumbass: your advocacy is that 12 years ago the United States should have military assisted the Kurds to make war to attempt to get their own state. and the other "anti-war" activists are apologists for the most horrific dictatorial regime of the late 20th century. it takes real twist to join skull and sphincter but you got mad contortionism. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/32e72443/attachment.html From ccooper Thu May 1 09:38:40 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:38:40 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Korcok Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A733707114307B@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Why's it always Korcok? Hasn't he been bitch-slapped around this list enough? You can tell when you're really starting to make headway when that vein on his forehead starts to pop out and he starts muttering "dumbass" incessantly. Listen Mike...surely you don't believe it's as simple as the ends justifying the means do you? Are you really suggesting that there wasn't a better, more honest, less fatal, more conducive to international law and diplomacy, more enduring, less hegemonic, more noble way of ousting Saddam and Sons? Can you imagine one? No? Well...that's what Sanchez means by the anti-war crowd being more "nuanced." Like a truly Manechaen Millenarian, you and your ilk run headlong into tragedies of your own design, all the while patting yourselves on the back for making the world just that much better (for those who remain). It is your ilk who invoke terms like "collateral damage" and "freindly fire" to gloss over those who you use as means to your own ends. Your ilk defines things like "weapons of mass destruction" and "terrorism" to invoke hatred and misunderstaning so long as it suits your agenda. Where to next, dumbass? Syria, North Korea, Cuba, Libya, Palestine, Burma, Russia, China, France? Your logic justifies our violent means everywhere. Are you incapable of being just a little more "nuanced"? Are you? Coop -----Original Message----- From: Michael Korcok [mailto:mmk_savant at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 9:47 AM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Sanchez wrote: "what i hear the anti-war blah blah very nuanced blah blah blah" right. they are all defending having left Saddam and Sons in power. that's why the comparison is between what actually happened and the counterfactual of having left Saddam and Sons in power. dumbass. and you used "very nuanced" to describe a pile of crap: lousy solvency presses, dropping impacts, handwaving toward workability, and unlinked unimpacted disads. that makes you a double-stuffed dumbass. in your defense, you aren't defending having left Saddam and Sons in power. you are defending your own crack-pot "should have armed and trained and assisted-with-airpower the Kurds 12 years ago so they could get their own state" counterplan. you know, a counterplan with no solvency advocate or even evidence. so, you know, the functional equivalent of advocating leaving Saddam and Sons in power. the really funny thing about that is you accuse me of being a statist or an apologist of statism or some such crap. hey, upside-down double-stuffed dumbass: your advocacy is that 12 years ago the United States should have military assisted the Kurds to make war to attempt to get their own state. and the other "anti-war" activists are apologists for the most horrific dictatorial regime of the late 20th century. it takes real twist to join skull and sphincter but you got mad contortionism. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/a1ff0ecf/attachment.htm From mmk_savant Thu May 1 09:58:40 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 10:58:40 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] ans Coop Message-ID: nice. if there was an alternative to US military liberation, what was it, Chris? that's the whole ballgame, seems to me. i have prodded, pleaded, cajoled, and insulted you all to so much as state one in the past week. the ONLY one(s) even attempted were by Sanchez. and those were unlikely to get rid of Hussein alternative means to conduct US military liberation of Iraq. silence and junk defenses of inaction from everyone else. it sounds like you're ready to step up to the plate. how would you have gotten rid of Saddam and Sons, Chris? (and why didn't you offer that idea up over the past year?) oh yeah, your argument was "not in my name" meaning that you wouldn't hold yourself morally culpable for advocating that the US do nothing to remove the most vicious dictatorial regime of our time. well that's no good, man. at least Sanchez came up with SOMETHING. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alfred.snider Thu May 1 10:44:12 2003 From: alfred.snider (Alfred C. Snider) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:44:12 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Global Webcast Lectures upcoming Message-ID: The World Debate Institute, Debate Central, and the University of Vermont are proud to announce a series of global webcast lectures for debaters. Originally arranged with Bojana Skrt of Za in Proti and the Slovenian debate program, these lectures are open to all who are interested. This short series of lectures this Spring will pave the way for a more ambitious series next Fall. The lectures can be watched at http://www.uvm.edu/debate_theater/ You will need QuickTime 6.0 or higher installed. It is a free download from http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ All lectures air at 9 AM USA Eastern Time, which is: 3 PM in Zagreb & Ljubljana (Paris-Berlin time zone) 4 PM in Minsk, Bucharest & Sofia 5 PM in Moscow 8 PM in Almaty 9 PM in Beijing The reason the lectures are live is so that people watching can send in questions via email. Each speaker will give an email address for questions to be sent in during the lecture, and then they will answer questions at the end. The topics have been solicited and these seem to be the topics people want covered now. MAY 7, 2003 Affirmative debating using a plan Maxwell Schnurer, Marist College, New York, USA MAY 14, 2003 Negative debating against a plan Kate Shuster, Claremont Colleges, California, USA MAY 21, 2003 Debating discrimination - a review of issues and strategies John Meany, Claremont Colleges, California, USA A previous lecture is now archived and can be viewed whenever you wish... APRIL 16, 2003 How to make an effective argument Alfred Snider, University of Vermont, USA available for viewing at http://debate.uvm.edu/watchlecture.html Good luck, and "see you" "out there." Tuna -- --------------------------- Alfred C. Snider, AKA Tuna Edwin W. Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont 475 Main, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA World Debate Institute; World Debate Organization 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-0097 office; 802-656-4275 fax http://debate.uvm.edu/; http://debate.uvm.edu/tuna.html; http://debate.uvm.edu/ldu.html ; http://debate.uvm.edu/wdo.html From alfred.snider Thu May 1 10:49:39 2003 From: alfred.snider (Alfred C. Snider) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:49:39 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] New on Debate Central for May Message-ID: NEW ON DEBATE CENTRAL MAY, 2003 http://debate.uvm.edu The world's largest and most used debate website. When you type "Debate" into Google, we are listed first! Debate Central began on September 1, 1994. It is a service of the Speech and Debate program at the University of Vermont. Alfred C. Snider is the system operator, Andrew Hendrickson and Wesley Wright are the technical advisors. We are currently averaging over 23,000 document views per day for the entire site, not counting our video users, who are on a separate server. Our splash page recently went over 300,000 visitors. If the server moves a little slow sometimes, please be patient. NEW DURING APRIL Debate Central hosts the National Forensic League website. New items appear there, including: LD, Policy, Ted Turner debate topics (new) at http://debate.uvm.edu/NFL/nflhome.html New manuals for Nationals and Districts at http://debate.uvm.edu/NFL/nflhome.html NFL Nationals and Student Congress entry forms at http://debate.uvm.edu/NFL/nationals.html Over 70 new articles on debate, speech, and coaching in the NFL ROSTRUM LIBRARY can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/NFL/rostrumlib.html INCLUDING: BOOK REVIEW: 110 GREAT SPEECHES FOR YOUNG AMERICANS Suzanna McIntire, Rostrum, April, 2003 FORENSICS IN THE COMMUNITY: WHAT WE OFFER Rusty McCrady, Rostrum, November, 2001 E-COACHING: COMMUNICATION AND THE INTERNET Adam Jacobi, Rostrum, March,2 003 PROFILE OF CARL GRECCO Kathleen Pasek, Rostrum, April, 2003 HOW VERY SMALL DEBATE PROGRAMS CAN ACHIEVE NATIONAL SUCCESS David Cheshier, Rostrum, December, 2002 WINNING: OF ENDINGS AND BEGINNINGS IN FORENSICS John Buettler, Rosrum, March, 2003 FORENSICS: WHAT'S IN A WORD? 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Paul Harems, Rostrum, March, 2003 IN DEFENSE OF THE NFL (AND DEBATE IN ALL ITS FORMS) Tammie Peters, Rostrum, January, 2003 "A GOOD IDEA" David Baker, Rostrum, April, 2003 INHERENCY, STRATEGY, AND ACADEMIC DEBATE Ben Bates, Rostrum, January, 2002 DEBATE RESEARCH ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB Stefan Bauschard, Rostrum, January, 2002 ACCENTING DEBATE: INCREASING DEBATE PARTICIPATION BY ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE AND LIMITED ENGLISH PROFICIENCY STUDENTS Sylbia Beltran & Sue Lowrie, Rostrum, January, 2002 DEBATE: ACADEMIC VIRTUES DEBATE PROVIDES Jonathan Carr, Rostrum, January, 2002 20 WAYS TO BENEFIT MORE FROM DEBATE TOURNAMENTS David Cheshier, Rostrum, January, 2002 EXTENDING TOPICALITY ARGUMENTS David Cheshier, Rostrum, February, 2002 DEFENDING PRAGMATISM AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO SOME CRITIQUES David Cheshier, Rostrum, March, 2002 DRILLS TO IMPROVE YOUR DEBATE SPEAKING David Cheshier, Rostrum, April, 2002 IS THE CONSULTATION COUNTERPLAN LEGITIMATE? 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WHAT EXACTLY IS ALLOWED IN EXTEMP PREP? David Matley, Rostrum, February, 2003 GROWING A TREE: RHETORICAL CANONS AND EXTEMPORANEOUS SPEAKING Jennifer Oakley, Rostrum, February, 2003 EXTEMPORANEOUS INTRODUCTIONS: ART AND SKILL VERSES DANGEROUS PEDANTRY William Bennett, Rostrum, April, 2003 Video of the CEDA Nationals final between New York University and Whitman College, in the WATCH DEBATE section and can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/watchdebate.html Videos of 30 minute discussion television programs in the FLASHPOINT series, #257 Ban Cars, #258 Sex Trade, #259 Free Trade Zone, #260 Pre-Emptive Peace Movements , #261 Indoor Smoking Ban, #262 Future of the Space Program, #263 Death Penalty, #264 Protest and You, #265 Korea Conundrum, #266 Oil Conspiracy, #267 Party Systems, #268 Patriot Act, #269 Speak Out part 1, #270 Speak Out part 2, and #271 Speak Out part 3 in the FLASHPOINT section, can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/flashpoint.html Video on the subject of Debate Across the Curriculum, webcast globally, is for teachers who want to use debate in their classrooms. Find it at http://debate.uvm.edu/watchlecture.html Tired of network news? Check out the alternative of internet news, streaming video, audio, and text. Be your own news editor! Can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/news.html Debate Central provides a diverse selection of debate training products from the non-profit Debate Publications program. These products are offered as part of the "Debate Publication" program at the University of Vermont, a non-profit educational activity designed to promote debating worldwide. A new complete list of products can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/ee.html The thirteen part lecture series "Critical Advocacy" is available for sale as VHS tapes, CD-ROMs, and VCD/DVDs, but you can also see it online at http://debate.uvm.edu/critadv.html 1 Introduction to Debating 2 Types of Arguments 3 Forms of Argumentative Proof 4 Refuting Arguments 5 Practical Argumentation 6 Formats for Debating 7 Preparation for Debating 8 Organization for Debating 9 Skills for Debating 10 Speaking to Persuade 11 Objects of Persuasion 12 Theories of Persuasion 13 Strategy of Persuasion Lectures by Alfred Snider of University of Vermont, John Meany of Claremont Colleges, David Berube of University of South Carolina, and Marc Whitmore of the English Speaking Union UK. The "Debate Day in Parliament" video from Slovenia is now available in Slovenian as an online video, and can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/watchdebate.html Two Russian debate promotion videos can be found at a new page, WATCH INTERNATIONAL VIDEOS, and can be found at http://debate.uvm.edu/watchintl.html THINGS ON DEBATE CENTRAL YOU MIGHT BE MISSING Tuna's Debate Travel Journals at http://debate.uvm.edu/travel/travel.html Dread Library, extensive essay about reggae music, at http://debate.uvm.edu/dreadlibrary/dreadlibrary.html Research Backfile Database, evidence on many topics, at http://debate.uvm.edu/handbookfile/handbookindex.html The Debate Central Archives, searchable, for jobs, grad opportunities, etc. at http://debate.uvm.edu/dcarchives.html Judge Philosophy statements are at http://debate.uvm.edu/judgephilo.html Over 300 parliamentary debate topics by John Meany are at http://debate.uvm.edu/parlitopics.html Read the weekly newsletter of Vermont Debate at http://debate.uvm.edu/vofelist.html See a video of Tuna's house in Mexico at http://debate.uvm.edu/vofelist.html -- --------------------------- Alfred C. Snider, AKA Tuna Edwin W. Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont 475 Main, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA World Debate Institute; World Debate Organization 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-0097 office; 802-656-4275 fax http://debate.uvm.edu/; http://debate.uvm.edu/tuna.html; http://debate.uvm.edu/ldu.html ; http://debate.uvm.edu/wdo.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/e6a82c9e/attachment.html From ccooper Thu May 1 11:34:42 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:34:42 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Korcok Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143085@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Sorry, Mike...it's been a busy month. Articulating my plan for saving Iraq was on the back-burner for a bit. However, I am curious why MY silence limits YOUR ability to think creatively. Again, are you REALLY saying that the way we did this was the best way? Even a good way? Alright...here's Coop's counterplan (if you will) for getting rid of Saddam and Sons as well as other unsavory characters. It includes direct, indirect, and preventive functions. Direct: The United States should establish and aquiesse to an international enforcement mechanism for international treaties against genocide, torture, and other various bad things. This enforcement mechanism should include an international S.W.A.T. team of highly-trained, and fully funded troops equipt with non-lethal weapons and urban pacification technology (you know...sonic, chems. in the water system, gas). International treaties on the development and use of CBW's should provide an exception for this team. Indirect: (make the regime largely irrelevant to the internal function of the nation...) Smart sanctions (wasn't Powell all about this until he was shut up?) External support of a democratic infrastructure. Massive amount of support to internal democratic groups), support of a free press, aid for universities and programs in democratic governance, cultural exchanges... Preventive: DON'T use our geopolitical and economic interests as a litmus test to give support to psychopathic personalities. DO act in ways that increase the credibility of international law. Stop selectively enforcing UN resolutions. Use unilateral action only in extreme circumstances. There....chew on that for a while. Coop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/e61e160f/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Thu May 1 11:41:23 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:41:23 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets Message-ID: http://www.msnbc.com/news/907379.asp?0cv=CB10 contact the president and vp immediately and ask them what the fuck they are doing keeping secret testimony that has already appeared on the floor of the congress just because it proves their incompetence. this is appalling fascism in our "own" country. please forward to everyone you know and DEMAND DECLASSIFICATION OF MATERIAL THAT SHOULD FOR NO REASON REMAIN CLASSIFIED except that the president is a class A moron w a sub-par IQ and can't even take questions that normal presidents take. 202-456-1111 president at whitehouse.gov vice.president at whitehouse.gov _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jackattack7 Thu May 1 11:49:33 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:49:33 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] culture advisors quit over museum fiasco Message-ID: again, bush has and had no respect for the iraqi people and was much more concerned about securing the oil fields. this is a reuters piece where culture advisors admit incompetence and negligence. another blow to the bush administration that fucking sucks big time. call bush and let him know that he should resign too for skewed priorities and gross disrespect for the people he is pretending to be the jesus savior. note well the "professional art thieves may have been behind some of the looting" line...it looks like these two guys are taking the fall for wealthy american art dealers that put $$$ in republican coffers...the problem runs deeper than the article suggests http://www.rense.com/general37/oveoe.htm Bush Cultural Advisers Quit Over Museum Theft By Niala Boodhoo 4-17-3 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two cultural advisers to the Bush administration have resigned in protest over the failure of U.S. forces to prevent the wholesale looting of priceless treasures from Baghdad's antiquities museum. ? Martin Sullivan, who chaired the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for eight years, and panel member Gary Vikan said they resigned because the looting should never have been allowed to happen. ? "If we understood the value of Sumerian cuneiform tablets to our past, as we do with oil getting us somewhere in our cars, I don't think this would have happened," Vikan, director of the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, told Reuters on Thursday. ? At the start of the U.S.-led campaign against Iraq, military forces quickly secured valuable oil fields. ? Baghdad's museums, galleries and libraries are empty shells, destroyed in a wave of looting that erupted as U.S.-led forces ended Saddam Hussein's rule last week, although antiquities experts have said they were given assurances months ago from U.S. military planners that Iraq's historic artifacts and sites would be protected by occupying forces. ? "It didn't have to happen," Sullivan told Reuters. "In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for." Sullivan sent his letter of resignation earlier this week. ? The Iraqi National Museum held rare artifacts documenting the development of mankind in ancient Mesopotamia, one of the world's earliest civilizations. Among the museum collection were more than 80,000 cuneiform tablets, some of which had yet to be translated. ? Professional art thieves may have been behind some of the looting, said leading archeologists gathered in Paris on Thursday to seek ways to rescue Iraq's cultural heritage. ? Among the priceless treasures missing are the 5,000-year-old Vase of Uruk and the Harp of Ur. The bronze Statue of Basitki from the Akkadian kingdom is also gone, somehow hauled out of the museum despite its huge weight. ? The White House repeated on Thursday that the looting was unfortunate but the U.S. military had worked hard to preserve the infrastructure of Iraq. ? "It is unfortunate that there was looting and damage done to the museum and we have offered rewards, as Secretary Rumsfeld has said, for individuals who may have taken items from the museum to bring those back," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said in Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is spending a long Easter break. ? FBI Director Robert Mueller added that the bureau was sending agents to Iraq to assist with criminal investigations and had issued Interpol alerts to all member nations regarding the potential sale of stolen artifacts. ? "We recognize the importance of these treasures to the Iraqi people and as well to the world as a whole," Mueller said. "And we are firmly committed to doing whatever we can in order to secure the return of these treasures to the people of Iraq." ? The president appoints the 11-member advisory committee, which works through the State Department to advise the executive office on the 1970 UNESCO Convention on international protection of cultural objects. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jackattack7 Thu May 1 12:05:52 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:05:52 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] good ole ACCP+Culture Implementation Act Message-ID: how bout them policy apples in the subject line? call bush and ask him if it's true that the ACCP met w the defense dept and the state dept prior to the invasion to arrange for the looting in a secret deal that would have the US army do nothing to protect key museums wasting their time firing on journalists in the palestine hotel instead. two articles below make the indictment . "professional archaeologists had told the Pentagon of the danger of looting beforehand". hmmm sounds like gross negligence on par with the 9-11 secrets thread. sneak preview from second article: quote ?"The US online publication of BusinessWeek magazine reiterated the theme of premeditation and conspiracy in the looting of Iraq?s museums in an April 17 article headlined ?Were Baghdad?s Antiquity Thieves Ready?? The article carries the subtitle: ?They may have known just what they were looking for because dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance.? BusinessWeek writes: ?It was almost as if the perpetrators were waiting for Baghdad to fall to make their move. Gil J. Stein, a professor of archaeology at the University of Chicago, which has been conducting digs in Iraq for 80 years, believes that dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance. ?They were looking for very specific artifacts,? he says. ?They knew where to look.??unquote this is a fucking disgrace to the iraqi people and their cultural heritage. BUSH MEANT IT WHEN HE SAID "CRUSADE" IN HIS SHITTY POST 9-11 SPEECH. good ole skull and bones knights templar imperial theft of cultures with a more rich heritage than the diseased white race!!! today they call it wealthy republican white collar crime. http://www.rense.com/general37/dealers.htm Did US Dealers/Collectors Organize Museum Looting? >From Iraq War.ru Posted 4-7-3 By Liam McDougall - Sunday Herald 4-14-3 Fears that Iraq's heritage will face widespread looting at the end of the Gulf war have been heightened after a group of wealthy art dealers secured a high-level meeting with the US administration. ? It has emerged that a coalition of antiquities collectors and arts lawyers, calling itself the American Council for Cultural Policy (ACCP), met with US defence and state department officials prior to the start of military action to offer its assistance in preserving the country's invaluable archaeological collections. ? The group is known to consist of a number of influential dealers who favour a relaxation of Iraq's tight restrictions on the ownership and export of antiquities. Its treasurer, William Pearlstein, has described Iraq's laws as 'retentionist' and has said he would support a post-war government that would make it easier to have antiquities dispersed to the US. ? Before the Gulf war, a main strand of the ACCP's campaigning has been to persuade its government to revise the Cultural Property Implementation Act in order to minimise efforts by foreign nations to block the import into the US of objects, particularly antiques. ? News of the group's meeting with the government has alarmed scientists and archaeologists who fear the ACCP is working to a hidden agenda that will see the US authorities ease restrictions on the movement of Iraqi artefacts after a coalition victory in Iraq. ? Professor Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, leading Cambridge archaeologist and director of the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, said: 'Iraqi antiquities legislation protects Iraq. The last thing one needs is some group of dealer-connected Americans interfering. Any change to those laws would be absolutely monstrous. ' ? A wave of protest has also come from the Archaeological Institute of America (AIA), which says any weakening of Iraq's strict antiquities laws would be 'disastrous'. President Patty Gerstenblith said: 'The ACCP's agenda is to encourage the collecting of antiquities through weakening the laws of archaeologically-rich nations and eliminate national ownership of antiquities to allow for easier export. ' ? The ACCP has caused deep unease among archaeologists since its creation in 2001. Among its main members are collectors and lawyers with chequered histories in collecting valuable artefacts, including alleged exhibitions of Nazi loot. ? They denied accusations of attempting to change Iraq's treatment of archaeological objects. Instead, they said at the January meeting they offered 'post-war technical and financial assistance', and 'conservation support'. second article http://wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/loot-a19.shtml US government implicated in planned theft of Iraqi artistic treasures By Ann Talbot 19 April 2003 Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author As the full extent of the looting of Iraq?s National Museum in Baghdad emerges, it becomes clear that there was nothing accidental about it. Rather it was the result of a long planned project to plunder the artistic and historical treasures that are held in the museums of Iraq. Had the National Museum of Iraq been looted by poor slum dwellers it would have been crime enough, and the responsibility would have rested with the American administration that refused, despite repeated warnings, to provide for the security of Baghdad?s cultural buildings. Once the museum staff were able to communicate with the outside world, however, it became apparent that the looting was not random. It was the work of people who knew what they were looking for and came specially equipped for the job. Dr. Dony George, head of the Baghdad Museum, said, ?I believe they were people who knew what they wanted. They had passed by the gypsum copy of the Black Obelisk. This means that they must have been specialists. They did not touch those copies.? Speaking on Britain?s Channel 4 News, he told Dr. John Curtis of the British Museum that among the artifacts that have been stolen are the sacred vase of Warka, a 5,000-year-old golden vessel found at Ur, an Akkadian statue base, and an Assyrian statue. It was, said Dr. Curtis, ?Like stealing the Mona Lisa.? It was only almost a week after the museum was originally looted that Dr. George was able to alert archaeologists worldwide to what had been stolen. The American military authorities had made no effort to prevent the objects leaving Baghdad or to put in process an international search for the stolen artifacts. The US reluctance to act cannot be explained by any lack of warning. Professional archaeologists and art historians had told the Pentagon of the danger of looting beforehand. Dr. Irving Finkel of the British Museum told Channel 4 that the looting was ?entirely predictable and could easily have been stopped.? The museum was the victim of a carefully planned assault. The thieves who took the most valuable material came prepared with equipment to lift the heaviest objects, which the staff could not move from the galleries, and had keys to the vaults where the most valuable items were stored. Not since the Nazis systematically stripped the museums of Europe has such a crime been committed. The US online publication of BusinessWeek magazine reiterated the theme of premeditation and conspiracy in the looting of Iraq?s museums in an April 17 article headlined ?Were Baghdad?s Antiquity Thieves Ready?? The article carries the subtitle: ?They may have known just what they were looking for because dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance.? BusinessWeek writes: ?It was almost as if the perpetrators were waiting for Baghdad to fall to make their move. Gil J. Stein, a professor of archaeology at the University of Chicago, which has been conducting digs in Iraq for 80 years, believes that dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance. ?They were looking for very specific artifacts,? he says. ?They knew where to look.?? Since the last Gulf War in 1991 Iraqi antiquities have flooded onto the market from the museums that were looted then and from archaeological sites that have been attacked with bulldozers. At such locations ancient statues have been sawed apart so they could be exported. This plundering of Iraq?s cultural heritage has only whetted the appetite of collectors who are already responsible for looting Far Eastern, Latin American and Italian archaeological sites. With the collapse of global stock markets, works of art and antiquities have come to be regarded even more highly as a secure investment, fuelling an already huge underground market. The illegal trade in antiquities is thought to be as lucrative as drugs trafficking, to which it is often linked. According to a report by the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, ?The Trade in illicit Antiquities: the Destruction of the World?s Archaeological Heritage,? produced in 2001, London and New York are the main markets for this trade. Switzerland, which allows an art work that has been in the country for five years to be granted a legal title, is a key trans-shipment point. Professor Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, director of the McDonald Institute at Cambridge, told a press conference at the report?s launch that the trade continued because ?The government is in the pocket of the art market, which wants to keep the flow of antiquities.? He added, ?It?s a scandal.? As news of the latest looting broke, the Labour government of British Prime Minister Tony Blair organised a hasty press conference in the British Museum, at which Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell promised official support to protect Iraqi antiquities. Even as she spoke, the National Library of Iraq was being looted. Home to rare, centuries-old illuminated copies of the Koran and other examples of Islamic calligraphy, as well as irreplaceable historical documents from the Ottoman Empire, the building was set on fire, destroying an untold number of texts. Reporter Robert Fisk, who saw the flames, ran to get US marines in an attempt to save some of the collection, but they refused to help. Fisk wrote in the Independent, ?I gave the map location, the precise name in Arabic and English. I said the smoke could be seen from three miles away and it would take only five minutes to drive there. Half an hour later, there wasn?t an American at the scene and the flames were shooting 200 feet into the air.? After the fate of Baghdad museum, it can only be concluded that the generalised looting and arson at the library served to cover up a more systematic crime, in which select manuscripts were stolen for wealthy collectors. In the process they connived in the burning of books?another Nazi practice. The role of the ACCP In the aftermath of these two devastating attacks on culture, attention has focused on the activities of the American Council for Cultural Policy. Even the British press that works under some of the toughest libel laws in the world has been willing to suggest that the ACCP may have influenced US government policy on Iraqi cultural artifacts. The ACCP was formed in 2001 by a group of wealthy art collectors to lobby against the Cultural Property Implementation Act, which attempts to regulate the art market and stop the flow of stolen goods into the US. It has defended New York art dealer Frederick Schultz, who was convicted under the National Stolen Property Act, and opposes the use of the 1977 US v. McClain decision as a legal precedent in cases concerning the handling of stolen art objects. In the McClain case a US judge accepted that all pre-Columbian art or jewellery brought into the US without the express consent of the Mexican government was stolen property. Mexican law regards all archaeological artifacts as state property and bans their export. Mexico is one of a number of countries that has such legislation. Ashton Hawkins, a leading art lawyer and founder of the ACCP, regards such legislation as ?retentionist?. He has condemned the archaeologically rich ?source? countries for attempting to protect their archaeological sites and museums by such measures, and has argued that under the Clinton administration such ?retentionist? policies came to dominate US government policy. Hawkins has his sights set on the great Middle Eastern museums. He has called for the Egyptian antiquities that are held in the Cairo Museum to be dispersed. ?I would like to propose,? he said, ?that the Cairo Museum offer museums around the world the opportunity to acquire up to 50 objects for their collections. In return, the museums would make a very substantial contribution for the construction of the new museum under the Giza plateau?$1 million each, for example.? The ACCP?s inaugural meeting took place at the Fifth Avenue apartment of Guido Goldman, a collector of Uzbek textiles. Among those present were Arthur Houghton, the former curator of the Getty Museum at Malibu in California, which is notorious for displaying works of suspicious provenance. Hawkins himself retired in 2000 as vice president of the trustees of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, an institution that, according to its own former director, Thomas Hoving, holds many artifacts looted from Etruscan tombs. Before the war began, the ACCP met with Pentagon officials, declaring their great concern for Iraqi antiquities. What that concern means is evident from the remarks of William Pearlstein, the group?s treasurer, who also describes Iraqi laws on antiquities as ?retentionist?. The ACCP deny that they want Iraqi laws changed, but the looting of the museum and library will effectively circumvent that problem if US law on stolen art objects and archaeological material can be changed. Professor John Merryman of Stanford Law School and a member of the ACCP has called for a ?selective international enforcement of export controls? in US courts. In other words, it should be perfectly legitimate to import the objects looted from Baghdad if a US court chooses not to recognise Iraqi legislation. Merryman set out the organisation?s principles in a 1998 paper in which he argued that the fact that an art object had been stolen did not in itself bar it from lawful importation into the US. He went on to claim, ?The existence of a market preserves cultural objects that might otherwise be destroyed or neglected by providing them with a market value. In an open, legitimate trade cultural objects can move to the people and institutions that value them most and are therefore most likely to care for them? ( International Law and Politics, vol. 31: 1). This is a self-justifying argument that reeks of hypocrisy. Wealthy collectors can now point to the chaos on the streets of Baghdad, the looting of the museum and the burning of the library as evidence that the Iraqis are unable or unwilling?too poor or too ignorant?to look after their treasures, which would be better housed in American museums or private collections. The ACCP?s ideas represent the interests of particularly rapacious sections of the US ruling class, who operate on the principle that everything?even an object of priceless artistic or scientific value?is defined by its ?market value?. What they mean is price, since the real value of the objects stolen from the Museum of Baghdad and the Iraqi National Library is incalculable. These are quite literally people who understand the price of everything and the value of nothing. The prescription for the market to determine possession of and access to works of art and archaeological material would place these artifacts in the hands of a rich minority and make public access to them depend on the good will of their wealthy owners. Despite the fact that many of the ACCP members have been associated with major public institutions, their agenda is profoundly opposed to the public dissemination of art and archaeology. They are not only trying to change the law in other countries, but are working against the most progressive traditions of American society, which has always prized its public museums. A scientific tradition The development of public museums went hand in hand with the development of a scientific understanding of archaeological artifacts and the societies that produced them. Publicly funded museums represented a break with the tradition of private treasure hunting. Their exhibits aimed to display the material artifacts of the past in a rational and scientific manner. The accumulation of archaeological artifacts in private hands tends to disrupt scientific work, since material becomes scattered, is difficult to catalogue and much of it remains unknown to scholars working in the field. Public museums are public not only in their funding and because they open their galleries to visitors, but in the sense that they make knowledge available to all?something that has been recognised as a primary requisite of the scientific process since the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century. One of the effects of the looting of the Baghdad museum has been to destroy the card catalogue and computer records of the museum?s holdings. This has not only made tracking down its treasures more difficult, but has also undermined generations of patient archaeological work. To destroy such a catalogue is, both in a symbolic and practical sense, to make a collection private, because its contents become unknown to the outside world. While the major objects are well known internationally, a museum?s records goes far beyond these spectacular works of art. It includes all the minor finds of archaeological excavations that, in themselves, are not eye-catching, but when studied together produce a picture of a society that cannot be gained from its art alone. Archaeologists spend their time sifting the detritus of past civilisations, often literally. They may sieve tons of earth looking for beetle wing cases or seeds. Cess pits and rubbish heaps produce a wealth of knowledge. What is thrown away and discarded provides a context for the relics of great temples and palaces, or royal tombs. Petr Charvat?s recent book Mesopotamia before History [1] contains lovingly photographed images of pieces of mud impressed with rush matting. This is not the stuff to grace a collector?s cabinet, but reveals vital information about the craft skills and way of life of ancient Mesopotamians. A blow to world scholarship The Baghdad museum was more than a place to display artifacts. All excavations carried out in Iraq by international teams of archaeologists were reported to it. The museum therefore possessed a database of knowledge that was accessible to researchers internationally, and was the hub of a vast cooperative endeavour. Its looting and the destruction of its records are a blow to world scholarship. It threatens to turn the clock back more than 150 years to the period before scientific archaeology in Mesopotamia. Early excavations were by modern standards unscientific, as excavators were still learning their discipline by a process of trial and error. One of the most elementary lessons of that learning process was that context is everything in archaeology. An artifact can only tell its full story if its context is known. By context, an archaeologist means the physical position of an artifact in the ground, its relationship to other artifacts and to the layers of earth around it. From this information it is possible to determine an artifact?s relative date and considerable information about its practical use and social significance. Ripped out of this context, it loses much of its meaning. Even the finest work of art can be better appreciated when its context and the social conditions of its creators are understood. In its widest sense, understanding an artifact?s context means understanding its relationship to the entire archaeological site at which it was found, to other sites round about it, and to the historic landscape in which it belongs. While national feelings are often evoked to justify keeping archaeological artifacts in their country of origin, the more important scientific reason for doing so is that the context of the artifact is preserved by keeping it close to where it was found. It is still possible to see in modern Iraq houses built by similar methods to those employed by ancient builders and to see boats built to similar designs. The full significance of Mesopotamian artifacts can only be appreciated by seeing them in the context of the extraordinary landscape of modern Iraq?a country where every hill that rises above the plain has been built up from layers of mud brick representing generations of occupation. The American colonial administrator, retired general Jay Garner, tried to co-opt the emotional impact of that landscape for his own political purposes by holding his big tent meeting within view of the 4,000-year-old ziggurat of Ur, which was the temple platform for the moon god Nanna. But by allowing the museum of Baghdad to be looted, the US authorities have shown they have no regard for the real importance of Iraq to human history. When the medieval European cartographers who drew the thirteenth century Hereford map of the world set out to represent the planet on which they lived, they put Asia at the top because to them it was the most important continent. There lay the lands of the Bible. Jerusalem was at the very centre of their world view, and beyond it lay Babylon, the scene of the Jewish captivity, the Tower of Babel and Abraham?s home in the city of Ur. So deeply impressed on the European mind was the Biblical image of the world that the first excavators of ancient sites in this region were looking for confirmation of the Bible. Even in the twentieth century, Leonard Woolley referred to his excavations at Warka by the Biblical name of Ur of the Chaldees. Yet the material that came out the excavations carried out by Woolley, and others such as Layard, Botta and Hormuzd Rassam, shook the Biblical view of the world. Not the least important discovery was that familiar Bible stories such as Noah and the Flood had their origin in Mesopotamia long before the Bible was written. As the cuneiform writing of thousands of clay tablets was deciphered, it was realised that numerous complex and highly developed civilisations had existed in Mesopotamia of an antiquity never before guessed. The full extent of this history only became apparent as the technique of Carbon 14 dating and other scientific methods were refined. Only in the second half of the twentieth century was it realised that settled farming could be traced back to the mid-eleventh millennium BC in the Middle East. The cradle of civilization The earliest farming communities do not occur in the area that is present-day Iraq, but in the better watered highlands of the Zagros Mountains, Anatolia, the Levant and the Deh Luran Plain. Nevertheless, Iraq was the centre of the second phase of the protracted Neolithic Revolution that began with the domestication of animals and cereal crops. In Iraq that revolution went a significant step further with the development of irrigation, a technique that vastly increased agricultural productivity. The surplus produced by irrigation allowed the first urban civilisation on the planet to emerge in the very region that the combined military forces of the US and the UK are reducing to a wasteland. By 5800 BC, small farming communities were appearing along the Euphrates. Within a few centuries they had coalesced into dense urban settlements, each of several thousand people centred on a temple which was largely responsible for managing the irrigation system, distributing food, and importing stone, minerals and timber from the neighbouring highlands. Over two millennia these Mesopotamian cities developed the art of copper smelting, alloying bronze and, most importantly, writing. Writing was essential to the administration of cities that depended on a largely artificial ecosystem created by irrigation, and which needed to import even the most vital raw materials.[2] Writing enabled a dramatic intellectual development to take place. What began as a method of recording stores and deliveries became a medium for writing poetry, stories and history. Science and mathematics flourished. Modern research has revealed evidence of multiplication tables, tables of reciprocals, squares, square roots, cubes and logarithms to bases 2 and 16. Other texts show volumes and areas, linear and quadratic equations. Babylonian mathematicians calculated the value of pi to 3.125, close to its true value. Astronomy was highly developed and if it was understood in terms of omens and prophecy, its predictions of eclipses and the movement of the planets were nonetheless accurate.[3] The social and political structure of Mesopotamian society cannot be traced directly from its material remains, and archaeologists differ about its character and the course of its development, but Petr Charvat finds in Mesopotamian society to 3000 BC that ?in all spheres of society the principle of universality and equality comes to the fore ... the material standard of living is equalised by redistribution ... people meet in assemblies to discuss and decide matters of common interest.... All receive the same treatment in life and death? ( Mesopotamia Before History, pp. 158-59). >From 3000 BC there is some evidence of social stratification and the emergence of a political elite or ruling class in the ?royal burials? of Ur, but some archaeologists dispute this characterisation of those burials. In this period two great civilisations emerge: in the south of present-day Iraq is the Sumerian civilization, and in the north the Akkadian, which are both based on a collection of city states that preserve many of the cultural traditions of the earlier period. Not until 2334 BC does the first empire appear under the rule of Sargon of Agade, who unites these two confederations. Sargon?s short-lived empire was replaced by that of Ur Nammu in 2112 BC. The thousands of clay tablets that survive from this period testify to the careful management of resources that kept this empire alive until 1990 BC, when it was replaced by the Babylonian empire, which reached its high point under Hammurabi in 1792 BC. The mid-fourteenth century BC saw the rise of the first Assyrian empire. The Assyrians were to dominate Mesopotamia again, and the whole region from the Gulf to the Mediterranean in the ninth century BC. In 612 BC the Babylonian empire was established. It most outstanding ruler, Nebuchadnezzar, built the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the double walls of the city, the great ziggurat and the processional way. He was responsible for sacking Jerusalem and taking many of the Jews into captivity. This succession of empires and the Persian empire that followed were sustained by the immense productivity of the irrigation system and the complex system of administration that maintained it. The sophisticated concepts that had been developed in the process fed into the intellectual systems of later societies. Even the Greeks, from whom we derive the name for the land between the rivers, stood in awe of Mesopotamia?s achievements. One of the ministries that has been systematically destroyed in the recent days of looting is the Ministry of Irrigation. We might say that by this act the US administration seeks to drive Iraq back to the dark ages, except that Iraq has never known a dark age in the sense that Europe has. Empires might rise and fall, but as long as the irrigation system continued to function the land between the rivers could produce more food than it needed. By attacking the irrigation system, the US administration is causing more damage in a few weeks than any other previous invader. Iraq?s cultural significance did not end with the close of the Persian empire. Throughout the European dark ages it remained a haven of learning, preserving under the Caliphs of Baghdad classical texts lost in the West. Islamic scholarship was to prove vital to the re-emergence of Aristotelian philosophy in thirteenth century Europe and to the Renaissance. The full extent of the losses in this respect will only become apparent when the looting at the National Library is itemised. That account is yet to come. What is already clear is that a great crime has been committed against not only the Iraqi people, but against the whole of humanity, since it is the history of humanity that has been attacked. For this reason the sack of Baghdad marks a significant point on the trajectory of the Bush administration as it attempts to plunge the world into a new barbarism that would outstrip anything that history can show from the past. Notes: 1. Petr Charv?t, Mesopotamia before History, Routledge, 2002. 2. Brian M. Fagan, People of the Earth, Prentice Hall, 2001. 3. Michael Roaf, Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia, Equinox books, 1990 See Also: The sacking of Iraq?s museums: US wages war against culture and history [16 April 2003] How and why the US encouraged looting in Iraq [15 April 2003] _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Thu May 1 12:26:50 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:26:50 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] korcok CP special Message-ID: ok smart guy, we know your line by line is weak and your best will be to refer to the CP as from the hand of a monkey even though your grand eloquence on why liberating iraq is somehow a good debate arg has been defeated GAME OVER. how bout liberate iraq without the niger forgery, the plagiarized british dossier and spying on the UN a la the koza memo (all things you have signed up for on the rove petition so already you endorse these planks of this special exclusionary CP)? or was your public signing of the rove petition ungenuine? deliberately skewing public debate is unacceptable and you know it. add planks which you probably can't agree to because you are ideologically opposed and bush is as much your wetdream hero as he is hyland's. 1) no "shoving chalabi down our throats" to quote Powell. an iraqi referendum on what leaders they would want to see head the government and hey democratically decide what kind of government they want to have. this is basic democratic practice that is being intentionally suppressed by your boyz. 2) no iraqi oil to pay for US military expenses. all of the profits go to the iraqi people. congress appropriated taxpayer $$$ and that's the way it should be. no iraqi oil ends up in US or british petro pockets. true democracy and self-determination. the iraqis don't get a check from domestic US oil production or am i monkey to even suggest such a thing? 3) let out secrets about republican guard/saddam fly out from the airport so that we can know what really happened and why baghdad fell quicker than nassiriya as well as what the bush admin's real position on the evilness of the saddam regime w its repressive henchmen that dipped people in acid and stuff is. oh the moral outrage of saddam and the republican guard who'll take cash and safety like any thug on the run!!! 4) no halliburton clean up deal w cheney taking checks technically profiting off the war. the obvious conflict of interest was as unnecessary as the moral repugnance of starting a war to make money. 5) no deal w ACCP to loot the museums. instead military guards the museum as if they are as important as the oil fields. resignation of bush culture aids and concomitant embarassment become unnecessary. no blatant disrespect for the cultural heritage of the iraqi people to swing the rich art dealer vote. 6) no firing on the palestine hotel killing journalists and then lying to say that "journalist snipers" fired first when french TV video coverage shows a quiet calm before the tank aimed and murdered. this is just the beginning of the CP. i know. the mission was a success and we are all better for it since not one single mistake has ever been made by the cocky hardballer bush and his cabinet. their total arrogance that has alienated the majority of the world population is forever justified and korcok is ready to recite a nazi poem for us about it. stromboli/kolakowski films _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dagii Thu May 1 12:55:29 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] good ole ACCP+Culture Implementation Act Message-ID: <20030501175529.3FA1E3E04@xmxpita.excite.com> Jack writes: "this is a fucking disgrace to the iraqi people and their cultural heritage. BUSH MEANT IT WHEN HE SAID "CRUSADE" IN HIS SHITTY POST 9-11 SPEECH. good ole skull and bones knights templar imperial theft of cultures with a more rich heritage than the diseased white race!!! today they call it wealthy republican white collar crime." Ummm... What cultural heritage? You mean the one responsible for totalitarian dictators, oppressive governments, subjugation of women, poverty, and hatred? If it were gone (which it is not) I think that celebration would be a more appropriate reaction than profound regret. If you're referring to the culture that the European knights brought home post-crusade that led to advancements like deodorant, I'd agree that losing such a culture would be a real loss. Of course, you haven't displayed how taking Iraqi artifacts and putting them where people can see them is somehow a denegration of culture. I think that before we lament the loss of culture, there needs to be some warrant as to: 1. How the culture has been damaged AND 2. Why that's a particularly bad thing. I take offense to your comments regarding the "diseased white race." Considering your profound respect for culture, it would be only proper for you to show some respect for European culture (or even the culture of White Americans). If I were to make some comment regarding the "deseased [insert minority group here] race," I have no doubt that half the list would be jumping up my ass. The double-standard is absurd, and if we want some sort of equality and respect than abolishing double standards is the first thing to do. To quote Ayn Rand, "A genius is a genius no matter how many morons belong to his race." Finally, it's kind of weird that you imply that Republicans have no respect for art, and then turn around to imply that it's Republicans that own art museums. I'm not a Republican, but neither am I capable of that kind of double-think. I suppose only liberals are. Yours in Debate, Chad Henson _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From epmr Thu May 1 13:09:55 2003 From: epmr (Michael Roston the eminently practical) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:09:55 +0200 Subject: [eDebate] flames for Chad Henson Message-ID: <1051812595.3eb162f3998fc@www.omnimail.sm> "Ummm... What cultural heritage? You mean the one responsible for totalitarian dictators, oppressive governments, subjugation of women, poverty, and hatred? If it were gone (which it is not) I think that celebration would be a more appropriate reaction than profound regret." oh, you know, like the tablets that contained the earliest examples of the use of writing ever found that were either destroyed or stolen. that is, the human cultural heritage that preceded the ability of your ill-informed, racist ass to compose those lines of text above. I hope you catch fire. -- Michael Roston -what was your name, anyway? "Multinational life is cheap Soldiers, workers, maggots meat Get on up, protest right And use collateral damage at a legitimate target" -Primal Scream ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attiva la tua mail gratuita con Omnimail all'indirizzo http://www.omnimail.sm Il servizio ? offerto da Intelcom San Marino S.p.a. http://www.intelcom.sm From jackattack7 Thu May 1 13:12:14 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:12:14 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] good ole ACCP+Culture Implementation Act Message-ID: we are referring to the ws burroughs theory derived from brion gysin of the word virus. a long time ago there was a nuclear explosion in the gobi desert that altered the skin color of people in the immediate area and caused them to develop the throat capacity to enunciate words and concomitantly a rational capacity for the extermination of other cultures. it only takes 10,000 years for humans to evolve from the pick axe to bomb so that it is entirely conceivable that humanity already evolved to our current predicament once before. for a more detailed account see the essay "from watergate to eden" in the electronic revolution. i was kind of making an inside joke for those of us who think burroughs is really funny. i forgot to mention the great european achievements like the conquest and genocide of the americas and the technological advancement necessary for such cultural progress. the giving of the blankets with small pox so that they didn't have to shoot them with guns --- one of the earliest recorded uses of biological warfare otherwise known as evil WMD's to achieve racist geopolitical aims. i guess there were some pagan achievements before the Christians started inculcating obedience but even those show symptoms of disease from the word virus. easy to focus on my anti-white spin in the face of evidence of premeditated culture theft organized with the bush administration. don't go for the decoys --- call the president and ask him what happened in the meetings prior to the invasion w the rich art dealers operating under the auspices of the ACCP. duh. stromboli/kolakowski films on your stupid republican art argument. there is a distinction between owning art and creating art. hence, the inferiority of the white culture thieves with a relatively impoverished cultural heritage. grant --- feeds the "Crusade" link. thanks a lot. it is disrespectful and racist to steal art from cultures that precede our own in the name of 'liberation", the red herring of red herrings. >From: "Chad Henson" >Reply-To: Dagii at excite.com >To: jackattack7 at hotmail.com, edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: RE: [eDebate] good ole ACCP+Culture Implementation Act >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:55:29 -0400 (EDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from xmxpita.excite.com ([207.159.120.57]) by >mc10-f37.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 10:55:31 -0700 >Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110)id 3FA1E3E04; >Thu, 1 May 2003 13:55:29 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from [136.160.144.175] by xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; >Thu, 01 May 2003 13:55:29 EST >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Q1OJDRSDidP >X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with >any abuse report >X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7578f7805711529739bcbadb27375434 >X-Sender: dagii at excite.com >X-Mailer: PHP >Message-Id: <20030501175529.3FA1E3E04 at xmxpita.excite.com> >Return-Path: dagii at excite.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 17:55:31.0772 (UTC) >FILETIME=[DBAC37C0:01C3100A] > > >Jack writes: "this is a fucking disgrace to the iraqi people and their >cultural heritage. BUSH MEANT IT WHEN HE SAID "CRUSADE" IN HIS SHITTY POST >9-11 SPEECH. good ole skull and bones knights templar imperial theft of >cultures with a more rich heritage than the diseased white race!!! today >they call it wealthy republican white collar crime." > >Ummm... What cultural heritage? You mean the one responsible for >totalitarian dictators, oppressive governments, subjugation of women, >poverty, and hatred? If it were gone (which it is not) I think that >celebration would be a more appropriate reaction than profound regret. If >you're referring to the culture that the European knights brought home >post-crusade that led to advancements like deodorant, I'd agree that losing >such a culture would be a real loss. Of course, you haven't displayed how >taking Iraqi artifacts and putting them where people can see them is >somehow a denegration of culture. I think that before we lament the loss >of culture, there needs to be some warrant as to: 1. How the culture has >been damaged AND 2. Why that's a particularly bad thing. > >I take offense to your comments regarding the "diseased white race." >Considering your profound respect for culture, it would be only proper for >you to show some respect for European culture (or even the culture of White >Americans). If I were to make some comment regarding the "deseased [insert >minority group here] race," I have no doubt that half the list would be >jumping up my ass. The double-standard is absurd, and if we want some sort >of equality and respect than abolishing double standards is the first thing >to do. To quote Ayn Rand, "A genius is a genius no matter how many morons >belong to his race." > >Finally, it's kind of weird that you imply that Republicans have no respect >for art, and then turn around to imply that it's Republicans that own art >museums. I'm not a Republican, but neither am I capable of that kind of >double-think. I suppose only liberals are. > >Yours in Debate, > >Chad Henson > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From kkuswa Thu May 1 13:26:03 2003 From: kkuswa (Kevin Kuswa) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:26:03 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] the spiders welcome shawn powers Message-ID: <00ff01c3100f$1f5601f0$2774a68d@richmond.edu> Richmond is WAY PSYCHED to announce that Shawn Powers will be joining us next year as the Assistant Debate Coach. We are very excited to have such a talented debater and awesome person join the spiders. Welcome, Shawn, and congrats. sincerely, Kevin Kuswa (u) Spide(r)bate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/1283569b/attachment.html From jackattack7 Thu May 1 14:26:18 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:26:18 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: concerned democrats and others to the left or even internally disaffected republicans, http://extremecampaigns.com/draftwesley/news.htm a grassroots organization in new york city is encouraging people to contact clark to run because the other candidates got little chance. kerry blows and looks like a softy w his heinz money, a veritable dukakis new englander repeat w no southern states to show. kucinich is great but his odds of getting the nomination are low because he is so fringe. hopefully he will force compromise on the democratic agenda. the number one priority is to oust bush and reverse the patriot act and restore some sanity to foreign policy in the short-term. extreme campaigns is making the poignant suggestion w foresight that clark is only potential candidate with a chance. forward to all relevant concerned parties. clark has til nov 21 technically to declare but the sooner the better since it takes millions of dollars to compete. www.draftwesleyclark.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ccooper Thu May 1 14:46:13 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143088@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Um....what about Howard Dean? -----Original Message----- From: jack stroube [mailto:jackattack7 at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:26 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark concerned democrats and others to the left or even internally disaffected republicans, http://extremecampaigns.com/draftwesley/news.htm a grassroots organization in new york city is encouraging people to contact clark to run because the other candidates got little chance. kerry blows and looks like a softy w his heinz money, a veritable dukakis new englander repeat w no southern states to show. kucinich is great but his odds of getting the nomination are low because he is so fringe. hopefully he will force compromise on the democratic agenda. the number one priority is to oust bush and reverse the patriot act and restore some sanity to foreign policy in the short-term. extreme campaigns is making the poignant suggestion w foresight that clark is only potential candidate with a chance. forward to all relevant concerned parties. clark has til nov 21 technically to declare but the sooner the better since it takes millions of dollars to compete. www.draftwesleyclark.com _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/abd63588/attachment.htm From rrach Thu May 1 14:57:41 2003 From: rrach (rrach at juno.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:57:41 GMT Subject: [eDebate] Crosby (texas) HS 2003 New Topic Tournament Invite Message-ID: <20030501.125749.2521.171438@webmail01.lax.untd.com> Fourth Annual Crosby High School New Topic Tournament Invitation Crosby Speech and Debate cordially invites you to celebrate the oceans topic with us at the Fourth Annual Crosby High School New Topic Tournament. The tournament date is set for Saturday, May 17, 2003. We are offering four rounds of cross-examination debate, followed by a final exhibition round between the top two teams for first and second place and an awards ceremony for the top teams and speakers. All debaters and judges present at the exhibition round will be allowed to cast a ballot to determine the champions of the tournament. A panel of judges will be selected to share their thoughts briefly after the round. Cross-Examination Debate Topic The CX Debate Topic will be the resolution for 2003/2004 debate season, which is Resolved: That the United States federal government should establish an ocean policy substantially increasing protection of marine natural resources. A Community Learning Event and Sharing of Evidence/Ideas Once again, we will offer an original, fully cut case on the new topic, including a 1AC, extensions, supplemental readings, and negative to the case for all schools participating. A packet will be mailed to you as soon as we receive confirmation of your entry. We request disclosure from schools that are preparing to run any different cases by May 10 so we can notify all competing schools by fax and email on May 13 of any additional cases that are going to be advocated. The idea we are working towards is to allow competing schools to prepare specific negative arguments so that more specific, quality debate can occur. A rolling list of schools and cases will be emailed to participants periodically from now until the date of the tournament to keep you posted on the ideas that are being generated. We also encourage schools that are running different cases to submit a negative against their own case at registration that we will distribute to all teams by Round II at the tournament to ensure quality, case-specific debate, and to give teams that participate a jump-start on researching the new topic. We will also try to generate negatives to the cases that will be run at the tournament so that everyone will have quality evidence and arguments to make starting with Round I. We may have to get help this year from other squads to create good, case specific negatives. If you would like to volunteer your squad to cut a negative against another school, please indicate so on the entry form. Last year fourteen schools and thirty-four teams participated, and twelve different affirmatives besides the tournament affirmative were generated and discussed. Everyone who participated received a copy of twelve different negatives when they walked in the door, and much more evidence was copied and distributed by the beginning of Round II. We hope that this year?s tournament will be even more successful. Schedule of Events 7:30 Registration 8:00 Debate Round I 10:00 Debate Round II 11:30-12:30 Lunch 12:30 Debate Round III 2:30 Debate Round IV 4:30 Debate Exhibition Round 6:00 Oral Criticisms. Announcement of Awards Judging and Fees Participating schools are required to bring enough judges to cover their entry (1 judge for every 2 CX entries). Your varsity debaters are invited to judge if they are not participating. We will also provide some judges, including former students, seniors, parents, and coaches, but we will need your help to cover all rounds. ***If covering your teams/entries is a problem, we will work with you. ***Also, experienced debaters from schools who are not planning on actually debating are more than welcome to come and lend their expertise as judges. The entry fee is twenty dollars per team. Awards Contestants will be awarded for first, second, and third place showings. CX winners will be determined by cumulative record after four rounds. Speaker awards will be given for first, second, and third place. A special exhibition round will be held before the awards ceremony between the two top-most ranked CX teams for first and second place. Directions >From South and West Houston: I-10 East, Beltway 8 North, New Highway 90 East, Exit 2100, North on 2100, High School is on the left. >From North Houston: 1960 West, South on 2100, High School on the right. >From the East: I-10 West, exit 2100, North on 2100 past Highlands, Highway 90, High School is on the left. Deadlines We are asking that all entries be faxed, called, or mailed in by May 12 for adequate planning time. We encourage RSVP?ing your entry by May 5 so that 1) we can guarantee shipment of your research packet, and 2) so we can guarantee entry as our facilities are limited. RSVP FORM CROSBY HIGH SCHOOL NEW TOPIC DEBATE TOURNAMENT To reserve an entry and/or receive your research packet, fax, email or call in the following information by May 5th , if not sooner: School: _____________________________ Coach (es): _____________________________ School Address: _________________________ _________________________ School Phone: __________________________ Home Phone: __________________________ Fax Number: __________________________ Email Address: _________________________ Estimated entries in: ____ CX Debate Do you want to volunteer your squad to be the primary researchers / case negative generators against another case besides the tournament affirmative? ( __ ) yes, please notify us of the other case ideas being generated and contact us to see which case(s) we would like to help research the negative. Will your squad run any other case besides the tournament case? If so, please describe preliminary details: ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Send information to: Russell Rach Crosby High School 14703 FM 2100 Crosby, TX 77532 School: (281) 328-9237 Direct Line: (281) 462-3153 Fax: (281) 328-9219 Home: (281) 839-2888 Email: RRach at Juno.com Entry Form, Crosby High School New Topic Tournament CX Teams Aff Case Planned ___________________________ _________________ ___________________________ _________________ ___________________________ _________________ ___________________________ _________________ ___________________________ _________________ Judges # of debate judges required: __________ (1 for every 2 debate entries) Names of judges: Experience (student, former student, parent, teacher) _____________________ __________________________________________ _____________________ __________________________________________ _____________________ __________________________________________ _____________________ __________________________________________ _____________________ ___________________________________________ Duplicate Forms as Necessary Please fax to or mail or email to: Russell Rach, Crosby High School, 14703 FM 2100, Crosby, TX 77532 phone: 281-462-3153, fax: 281-328-9219, email: RRach at Juno.com ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From jackattack7 Thu May 1 15:47:36 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:47:36 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] klemz's bottom $$$ DA -- the lowdown -- straight dope -- mothafuckas Message-ID: mr. klemz who does in fact roll on shabbas and other edebate readers, call this an investigation into the red herring of red herrings, operation 'iraqi freedom', disguised to conceal deliberate attempts to smash OPEC in a last ditch effort to prevent the decline of the dollar and the collapse of US economic hegemony post WWII. and we're not even addressing the whole venezeluan coup question which is subpoint in the william clark article below. 1) klemz is right. the left is missing out on their critique of the war. saddam hussein had already switched to the euro for oil pricing and the article below speculates that this is as an underplayed reason for the urgency of the invasion. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles4/Monbiot_Bottom-Dollar.htm quote: "Almost 70% of the world's currency reserves - the money which nations use to finance international trade and protect themselves against financial speculators - takes the form of US dollars. The dollar is used for this purpose because it is relatively stable, it is produced by a nation with a major share of world trade, and certain commodities, in particular oil, are denominated in it, which means that dollars are required to buy them. ? The United States does very well from this arrangement. In order to earn dollars, other nations must provide goods and services to the US. When commodities are valued in dollars, the US needs do no more than print pieces of green paper to obtain them: it acquires them, in effect, for free. Once earned, other nations' dollar reserves must be invested back into the American economy. This inflow of money helps the US to finance its massive deficit. (2) ? The only serious threat to the dollar's international dominance at the moment is the euro. Next year, when the European Union acquires ten new members, its gross domestic product will be roughly the same as that of the US, and its population 60% bigger. If the euro is adopted by all the members of the union, which suffers from none of the major underlying crises afflicting the US economy, it will begin to look like a more stable and more attractive investment than the dollar. Only one further development would then be required to unseat the dollar as the pre-eminent global currency: nations would need to start trading oil in euros. ? Until last week, this was already beginning to happen. In November 2000, SaddamHussein insisted that Iraq's oil be bought in euros. (3) ?When the value of the euro rose, the country's revenues increased accordingly. As the analyst William Clark has suggested, the economic threat this represented might have been one of the reasons why the US government was so anxious to evict Saddam. (4) ?But it may be unable to resist the greater danger. " unquote 2) yes, critics of the war have been too vague on the oil "conspiracy" which has been sidestepped by studies from places like the James Baker Institute of Rice University demonstrating that the disrepair of the iraqi oil infrastructure means relatively low levels of oil profits in the short-term AND, yes, one of the reasons why post-saddam iraq may have to pull out of OPEC is to make sure the payments are in dollars. quote: "Last year, Javad Yarjani, a senior official at OPEC, the oil producers' cartel, put forward several compelling reasons why his members might one day start selling their produce in euros. (5) ?Europe is the Middle East's biggest trading partner; it imports more oil and petrol products than the US; it has a bigger share of global trade; and its external accounts are better balanced. One key tipping point, he suggested, could be the adoption of the euro by Europe's two principal oil producers: Norway and the United Kingdom, whose Brent crude is one of the "markers" for international oil prices. "This might", Yarjani said, "create a momentum to shift the oil pricing system to euros." (6) ? If this happens, then oil importing nations will no longer need dollar reserves in order to buy oil. The demand for the dollar will fall, and its value is likely to decline. As the dollar slips, central banks will start to move their reserves into safer currencies, such as the euro and possibly the yen and the yuan, precipitating further slippage. The US economy, followed rapidly by US power, could then be expected to falter or collapse. ? The global justice movement, of which I consider myself a member, has, by and large, opposed accession to the euro, arguing, correctly, that it accelerates the concentration of economic and political power, reduces people's ability to influence monetary policy and threatens employment in the poorest nations and regions. (7) ?Much of the movement will have drawn comfort from the new opinion polls suggesting that almost 70% of British voters now oppose the single currency, and from the hints dropped by the Treasury last week that British accession may now be delayed until 2010. (8) ? But it seems to me that the costs of integration are merely a new representation ofthe paradox of sovereignty. Small states or unaffiliated tribes have, throughout history, found that the only way to prevent themselves from being overrun by foreign powers was to surrender their autonomy and unite to fight their common enemy. To defend our sovereignty - and that of the rest of the world - from the US, we must yield some of our sovereignty to Europe. ? That we have a moral duty to contest the developing power of the United States is surely evident. That we can contest it by no other means is equally obvious. Those of us who are concerned about American power must abandon our opposition to the euro." unquote 3) other censored excerpts from the Yarjani speech. let's look at actual statements from the head of OPEC's petroleum market analysis department unheard of in the USA that went to war to delay the transition. i think this will shirley be a DA on the college resolution next year even though an underanalyzed component of operation iraqi liberation. the article is entitled "The Real But Unspoken Reasons for the Iraq War" by William Clark cited in the subpoint 2 evidence just above. shove this one up your ass, korcok and hyland, w no answer. planet debate should sell this as a uniqueness card for the DA they don't got for sale because they's losas compared to phallus jerkins and the rising freedom of information movement in academic debate. http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm quote: "Especially interesting is a speech given by Mr Javad Yarjani, the Head of OPEC's Petroleum Market Analysis Department, in a visit to Spain (April 2002). He speech dealt entirely on the subject of OPEC oil transaction currency standard with respect to both the dollar and the euro. The following excerpts from this OPEC executive provide insights into the conditions that would create momentum for an OPEC currency switch to the euro. Indeed, his candid analysis warrants careful consideration given that two of the requisite variables he outlines for the switch have taken place since this speech in early 2002. These vital stories are discussed in the European media, but have been censored by our own mass media (14) ? ? "The question that comes to mind is whether the euro will establish itself in world financial markets, thus challenging the supremacy of the US dollar, and consequently trigger a change in the dollar's dominance in oil markets. As we all know, the mighty dollar has reigned supreme since 1945, and in the last few years has even gained more ground with the economic dominance of the United States, a situation that may not change in the near future. By the late 90s, more than four-fifths of all foreign exchange transactions, and half of all world exports, were denominated in dollars. In addition, the US currency accounts for about two thirds of all official exchange reserves. The world's dependency on US dollars to pay for trade has seen countries bound to dollar reserves, which are disproportionably higher than America's share in global output. The share of the dollar in the denomination of world trade is also much higher than the share of the US in world trade. ? Having said that, it is worthwhile to note that in the long run the euro is not at such a disadvantage versus the dollar when one compares the relative sizes of the economies involved, especially given the EU enlargement plans. Moreover, the Euro-zone has a bigger share of global trade than the US and while the US has a huge current account deficit, the euro area has a more, or balanced, external accounts position. One of the more compelling arguments for keeping oil pricing and payments in dollars has been that the US remains a large importer of oil, despite being a substantial crude producer itself. However, looking at the statistics of crude oil exports, one notes that the Euro-zone is an even larger importer of oil and petroleum products than the US." ? "From the EU's point of view, it is clear that Europe would prefer to see payments for oil shift from the dollar to the euro, which effectively removed the currency risk. It would also increase demand for the euro and thus help raise its value. Moreover, since oil is such an important commodity in global trade, in term of value, if pricing were to shift to the euro, it could provide a boost to the global acceptability of the single currency. There is also very strong trade links between OPEC Member Countries (MCs) and the Euro-zone, with more than 45 percent of total merchandise imports of OPEC MCs coming from the countries of the Euro-zone, while OPEC MCs are main suppliers of oil and crude oil products to Europe." ? "Of major importance to the ultimate success of the euro, in terms of the oil pricing, will be if Europe's two major oil producers ???" the United Kingdom and Norway join the single currency. Naturally, the future integration of these two countries into the Euro-zone and Europe will be important considering they are the region's two major oil producers in the North Sea, which is home to the international crude oil benchmark, Brent. This might create a momentumto shift the oil pricing system to euros." ? "In the short-term, OPEC MCs, with possibly a few exceptions, are expected to continue to accept payment in dollars. Nevertheless, I believe that OPEC will not discount entirely the possibility of adopting euro pricing and payments in the future. The Organization, like many other financial houses at present, is also assessing how the euro will settle into its life as a new currency. The critical question for market players is the overall value and stability of the euro, and whether other countries within the Union will adopt the single currency." ? Should the euro challenge the dollar in strength, which essentially could include it in the denomination of the oil bill, it could be that a system may emerge which benefits more countries in the long-term. Perhaps with increased European integration and a strong European economy, this may become a reality. Time may be on your side. I wish the euro every success." ? Based on this important speech, momentum for OPEC to consider switching to the euro will grow once the E.U. expands in May 2004 to 450 million people with the inclusion of 10 additional member states. The aggregate GDP will increase from $7 trillion to $9.6 trillion. This enlarged E.U. will be an oil consuming purchasing population 33% larger than the U.S., and over half of OPEC crude oil will be sold to the EU as of mid-2004. This does not include other potential entrants such as the U.K., Norway, Denmark and Sweden. I should note that since this speech the euro has been trading at parity or above the dollar since late 2002, and analysts predict the dollar will continue its downward trending in 2003 relative to the euro." unquote 4) the relative success of the blair iraq ploy may precipitate a euro referendum before the next election and polls show that post-saddam public opposition to the euro is softening in great britain. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38481-2003Apr16.html quote: "Pro-euro campaigners hope Blair will be emboldened by a swing in public opinion, which was overwhelmingly against war in Iraq before the shooting started but has since supported the campaign to oust Saddam Hussein by almost two-to-one. Opinion polls have consistently shown most Britons would prefer to have pounds rather than euros in their pockets. But public opposition softened in April, according to Barclays Capital's monthly eurotrack survey, produced by pollsters NOP. It showed 45 percent of Britons would vote against euro membership even if the government recommended joining, compared with 39 percent who would support it, a rounded net seven percent against the euro compared with nine in March and 13 in February. With the end-game approaching, both sides of the euro debate are jockeying for position -- 92 pro-euro MPs, most from Blair's Labour Party, have signed a parliamentary motion urging him to hold a referendum before the next election, stating that Britain cannot lead in Europe while outside its currency club. "I think there's a strong likelihood that...there will be a referendum during this parliament," said Labour MP Chris Bryant, who sponsored the motion. Anti-euro MPs say Blair would be mad to tie Britain closer into Europe while relations with France remain fraught over the Iraq war and the eurozone economy lags so far behind the UK. Relations with France and Germany have soured over Iraq but aides say that has made Blair even more convinced Britain should adopt the euro to become an equal partner with Paris and Berlin. (Additional reporting by Sumeet Desai)" unquote 5) OPEC euro switch inevitable by end of decade/logical by 2005 -- swedish lynchpin, etc. http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm quote: "Further, if or when the U.K. adopts the euro currency, that development could provide critical motivation for OPEC to the make the transition to euros. It appears the final two pivotal items that would create the OPEC transition to euros will be based on if and when Norway's Brent crude is re-dominated in euros, and when the U.K. adopts the euro. Regarding the later, Tony Blair is lobbying heavily for the U.K. to adopt the euro, and their adoption would seem imminent within this decade. Again, I offer the following information from my astute acquaintance who analyzes these matters very carefully regarding the euro: ? "The pivotal vote will probably be Sweden, where approval this next autumn of adopting the euro also would give momentum to the Danish government's strong desire to follow suit. Polls in Denmark now indicate that the euro would pass with a comfortable margin and Norwegian polls show a growing majority in favor of EU membership. Indeed, with Norway having already integrated most EU economic directives through the EEA partnership and with their strongly appreciated currency, their accession to the euro would not only be effortless, but of great economic benefit. ? As go the Swedes, so probably will go the Danes & Norwegians. It's the British who are the real obstacle to building momentum for the euro as international transaction & reserve currency. So long as the United Kingdom remains apart from the euro, reducing exchange rate costs between the euro and the British pound remains their obvious priority. British adoption (a near-given in the long run) would mount significant pressure toward repegging the Brent crude benchmark - which is traded on the International Petroleum Exchange in London - and the Norwegians would certainly have no objection whatsoever that I can think of, whether or not they join the European Union." ? Finally, the maneuvers toward reducing the global dominance of the dollar are already well underway and have only reason to accelerate so far as I can see. An OPEC pricing shift would seem rather unlikely prior 2004 - barring political motivations (ie. motivations of OPEC members) or a disorderly collapse of the dollar (ie. prolonged high oil prices due to Iraq war causes Japanese bank collapse)- but appears quite viable to take place before the end of the decade." ? In otherwords, around 2005, from an economic and monetary perspectivem, it will be logical for OPEC to switch to the euro for oil pricing. Of course that will devalue the dollar, and hurt the US economy unless it begins making some structual changes - or use its massive military power to force events upon the OPEC states... "unquote 6) the only way to stop the transition to the euro as the fiat currency for oil is to destroy OPEC via iraqi overproduction and other terrorist activities conducted against OPEC countries. "toppling saddam designed to remove the juggernaut" arg -- a whole new perspective on "pre-emptive strike" that makes more sense than WMDs, al-qaeda, or liberation. http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm quote: "Facing these potentialities, I hypothesize that President Bush intends to topple Saddam in 2003 in a pre-emptive attempt to initiate massive Iraqi oil production in far excess of OPEC quotas, to reduce global oil prices, and thereby dismantle OPEC'sprice controls. The end-goal of the neo-conservatives is incredibly bold yet simple in purpose, to use the "war on terror" as the premise to finally dissolve OPEC's decision-making process, thus ultimately preventing the cartel's inevitable switch to pricing oil in euros. ? How would the Bush administration break-up the OPEC cartel's price controls in a post-Saddam Iraq? First, the newly installed regime (apparently a U.S. General for the first several months) will convert Iraq back to the dollar standard. Next, with the U.S. military protecting the oil fields, the Bush junta will undertake the necessary steps to rapidly increase production of Iraq oil, quintupling Iraq's current output - and well beyond OPEC's 2 million barrel per day quota. ? Dr. Nayyer Ali offers a succinct analysis of how Iraq's underutilized oil reserves will not be a "profit-maker" for the U.S. government, but it will serve as the crucial economic instrument used by the Bush junta to leverage and hopefully dissolve OPEC's price controls, thus causing the neo conservative's long sought goal of collapsing the OPEC cartel (15): ? ? "Despite this vast pool of oil, Iraq has never produced at a level proportionate to the reserve base. Since the Gulf War, Iraq's production has been limited by sanctions and allowed sales under the oil for food program (by which Iraq has sold 60 billion dollars worth of oil over the last 5 years) and what else can be smuggled out. This amounts to less than 1 billion barrels per year. If Iraq were reintegrated into the world economy, it could allow massive investment in its oil sector and boost output to 2.5 billion barrels per year, or about 7 million barrels a day. ? Total world oil production is about 75 million barrels, and OPEC combined produces about 25 million barrels. ? What would be the consequences of this? There are two obvious things. ? First would be the collapse of OPEC, whose strategy of limiting production to maximize price will have finally reached its limit. An Iraq that can produce that much oil will want to do so, and will not allow OPEC to limit it to 2 million barrels per day. If Iraq busts its quota, then who in OPEC will give up 5 million barrels of production? No one could afford to, and OPEC would die. This would lead to the second major consequence, which is a collapse in the price of oil to the 10-dollar range per barrel. The world currently uses 25 billion barrels per year, so a 15-dollar drop will save oil-consuming nations 375 billion dollars in crude oil costs every year." ? "The Iraq war is not a moneymaker. But it could be an OPEC breaker. That however is a long-term outcome that will require Iraq to be successfully reconstituted into a functioning state in which massive oil sector investment can take place." ? The American people are largely oblivious to the economic risks regarding President Bush's upcoming war. Not only is Japan's economy at grave risk from a spike in oil prices, but additional risks relate to Iran and Venezuela as well, either of whom could move to the euros, thus providing further momentum for OPEC to act on their "internal discussions" and switch to the euro as the fiat currency for oil. The Bush administration believes that by toppling Saddam they will remove the juggernaut, thus allowing the US to control Iraqi's huge oil reserves, and finally break-up and dissolve the 10 remaining countries in OPEC." unquote 7) Turn OPEC Busting Scheme Backfires -- OPEC Will Not Commit Suicide and Instead Will Switch to the Euro to Head Off Bush Admin Last Ditch to Prevent Global Decline Paradoxically Producing the Outcome that the Invasion Was Designed to Preempt -- HA HA HA -- mass media censorship even corporate planet debate dickheads are out of it -- HA HA HA!!! quote: "This last issue is undoubtedly a significant gamble even in the best-case scenario of a quick and relatively painless war that topples Saddam and leaves Iraq's oil fields intact. Undoubtedly, the OPEC cartel could feel threatened by the Bush junta's stated goal of breaking-up OPEC's price controls ($22-$28 per barrel). Perhaps the Bush administration's ambitious goal of flooding the oil market with Iraqi crude may work, but I have doubts. Will OPEC simply tolerate quota-busting Iraqi oil production, thus delivering to them a lesson in self-inflicted hara-kiri (suicide)? ? Contrarily, OPEC could meet in Vienna and in an act of self-preservation re-denominate the oil currency to the euro. Such a decision by OPEC would mark the end of U.S. dollar hegemony, and thus the end of our precarious economic superpower status. Again, I offer the astute analysis of my expert friend regarding the colossal gamble this administration is about to undertake: ? "One of the dirty little secrets of today's international order is that the rest of the globe could topple the United States from its hegemonic status whenever they so choose with a concerted abandonment of the dollar standard. This is America's preeminent, inescapable Achilles Heel for now and the foreseeable future. ? That such a course hasn't been pursued to date bears more relation to the fact that other Westernized, highly developed nations haven't any interest to undergo the great disruptions which would follow - but it could assuredly take place in the event that the consensus view coalesces of the United States as any sort of 'rogue'nation. In other words, if the dangers of American global hegemony are ever perceived as a greater liability than the dangers of toppling the international order (or, alternately, if an 'every man for himself' crisis as discussed above spirals out of control and forces their hand). The Bush administration and the neo conservative movement has set out on a multiple-front course to ensure that this cannot take place, in brief by a graduated assertion of military hegemony atop the existent economic hegemony. ? The paradox I've illustrated with this one narrow scenario is that the quixotic course itself may very well bring about the feared outcome that it means to preempt. We shall see!" ? Under this administration we have returned to massive deficit spending and the lack of strong SEC enforcement has further eroded investor confidence. Regrettably, the flawed economic and tax policies of the Bush administration may be exacerbating the weakness of the dollar, if not outright accelerating some countries to diversify their central bank reserve funds with euros as an alternative to the dollar. From a foreign policy perspective, the terminations of numerous international treaties and disdain for international cooperation via the UN and NATO have angered even our closest allies. ? Lastly, and despite President Bush's attempt to use the threat of applying military force to OPEC producers who may wish to switch to the euro for their oil payments, it appears their belligerent neo conservative policies may paradoxically bring about the dire outcome they hope to prevent - an OPEC currency switch to euros. ? The American people are not aware of such information due to the U.S. mass media, which has been reduced to a handful of consumption/entertainment and profit-oriented conglomerates that filter the flow of information in the U.S. Indeed, the Internet provides the only source of unfiltered "real news." " unquote jacob stromboli/kolakowski films good shabbas tomorrow evening to all!!! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cpwiii Thu May 1 16:29:09 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:29:09 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets Message-ID: <000601c31028$b4f72d60$6bfd4cd8@cpwiii> If the testimony has appeared on the floor of Congress, how is it 'secret?' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/857ba797/attachment.html From cpwiii Thu May 1 16:30:39 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:30:39 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets Message-ID: <000601c31028$ea11d7c0$6bfd4cd8@cpwiii> By the way, what is a "normal president", and what qual's do you have to define the term??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030501/c97ec1f3/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Thu May 1 18:06:06 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:06:06 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets Message-ID: a normal president would be one who the media doesn't dumb themselves down to and instead ask the tough questions like clinton got and blair got during the iraq war. my quals don't matter since many experts agree that bush has gotten special attention from the media. remember when bush first got inaugurated he appeared infrequently because he appeared extremely unintelligent and unable to spontaneously respond to c-x. he got a later confidence boost but still he sticks to stupid cop talk like "bin laden is wanted dead or alive" "the vice is tightening". he's a rather stupid guy implementing policies of cheney, rumsfeld, et al. you never get any thing that expands your perspective or gets you to look at something in a novel light. the best high school debaters in the country are more fun to listen too than our sophisticated neo-conservative PR puppet. >From: >To: >Subject: Re: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:30:39 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc3-f36.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.171]) by >mc3-s17.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 14:32:55 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc3-f36.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May 2003 14:32:54 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41LV7w23359;Thu, 1 May 2003 >17:31:07 -0400 >Received: from imf62bis.bellsouth.net (mail149.mail.bellsouth.net >[205.152.58.109])by www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id >h41LUMw23229for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 17:30:22 -0400 >Received: from cpwiii ([216.76.253.107]) by imf62bis.bellsouth.net >(InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP >id <20030501213252.HJGA1459.imf62bis.bellsouth.net at cpwiii> for >; Thu, 1 May 2003 17:32:52 -0400 >X-Message-Info: 3az4pzJSlzFGsemEfivbiY5ZpSiXj7Z5 >Message-ID: <000601c31028$ea11d7c0$6bfd4cd8 at cpwiii> >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 21:32:54.0929 (UTC) >FILETIME=[3A000810:01C31029] > >By the way, what is a "normal president", and what qual's do you have to >define the term??? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Thu May 1 18:20:01 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:20:01 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets Message-ID: the question has been asked: "If the testimony has appeared on the floor of Congress, how is it 'secret?'" well read the article, dipshit, or do you need spectacles to better read the fine print --- RECLASSIFICATION... quote: " In some cases, these sources say, the administration has even sought to ?reclassify? some material that was already discussed in public testimony?a move one Senate staffer described as ?ludicrous.?" your question is exactly the question that should be directed to the president and the veep @ 202-456-1111. TURN BIG TIME BABY -- the white house is fucking up. trying to reclassify public testimony is a CONFESSION OF GUILT. hence, the criticism from people who are normally cheney supporters. the idea is that you can't RECLASSIFY public testimony and get away with it. it's better just to let the information indicting the administration for gross negligence and salient incompetence out and try to spin it than it is to illegally suppress, get busted, and then be stuck trying to spin it later. the illegal suppression is a damning act that irreparably damages the inevitable spin job. good luck on that nyc rnc. this fiasco is going to turn the whole thing into a joke. quote: "Graham?s stand may not be terribly surprising, given that the Florida Democrat is running for president and is seeking to use the issue himself politically. But he has found a strong ally in House Intelligence Committee Chairman Goss, a staunch Republican (and former CIA officer) who in the past has consistently defended the administration?s handling of 9-11 issues and is considered especially close to Cheney. ? ? ? ??I find this process horrendously frustrating,? Goss said in an interview. He was particularly piqued that the administration was refusing to declassify material that top intelligence officials had already testified about. ?Senior intelligence officials said things in public hearings that they [administration officials] don?t want us to put in the report,? said Goss. ?That?s not something I can rationally accept without further public explanation.? ? ? ? ?Unlike Graham, Goss insists there are no political ?gotchas? in the report, only a large volume of important information about the performance and shortcomings of U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement agencies prior to September 11. And even congressional staffers close to the process say it is unclear whether the administration?s resistance to public disclosure reflects fear of political damage or simply an ingrained ?culture of secrecy? that permeates the intelligence community?and has strong proponents at the highest levels of the White House." unquote it's clear enough to me that reclassifying public testimony has nothing to do with a culture of secrecy as my interlocutor has poignantly asserted in her question but about ineffective political damage control that will fail. maybe we should call the white house and ask them why they are "reclassifying" public testimony that indicts their handling of 9-11. this may be an unprecedented compromise of democratic practice in the USA. stromboli/kolakowski films >From: >To: >Subject: Re: [eDebate] urgent: MSNBC 9-11 secrets >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:29:09 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc4-f12.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.147]) by >mc4-s3.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 14:32:33 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc4-f12.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May 2003 14:31:50 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41LTBw23008;Thu, 1 May 2003 >17:29:11 -0400 >Received: from imf62bis.bellsouth.net (mail149.mail.bellsouth.net >[205.152.58.109])by www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id >h41LSrw22955for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 17:28:53 -0400 >Received: from cpwiii ([216.76.253.107]) by imf62bis.bellsouth.net >(InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP >id <20030501213123.HGGG1459.imf62bis.bellsouth.net at cpwiii> for >; Thu, 1 May 2003 17:31:23 -0400 >X-Message-Info: ngC3EoqT0TNTXprgYIsDZr2YuO6Fs7Zf >Message-ID: <000601c31028$b4f72d60$6bfd4cd8 at cpwiii> >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 21:31:50.0921 (UTC) >FILETIME=[13D92F90:01C31029] > >If the testimony has appeared on the floor of Congress, how is it 'secret?' _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jackattack7 Thu May 1 18:35:38 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:35:38 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: already posted as "Clark crushes Dean" to edebate. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2003_03_09_digbysblog_archive.html#90475454 "pussies" wouldn't be my word of choice but i agree w the residual sentiment especially the idea that dean or kerry would be a dukakis/mondale southern shutout repeat (before karl rove texas used to vote democrat with kennedy and georgia peach carter riding that but we're talkin bout losin florida, texas, and almost the whole south). don't get me wrong, i ain't crazy about clark and will definitely go after him if he gets elected but he's a hell of alot better than bush and maybe the only shot at regime change. we should at least draft him into the primaries and see if he beats the northerners. forward relevant info to concerned parties. quote: "I hope that the Democrats face up to the reality that national security is going to be the foremost issue in the coming Presidential campaign and find a way to deal with the fact that we are considered to be complete losers on the issue. This is a HUGE problem and it's not going to magically disappear no matter how badly they manage to fuck up the economy. They are going to keep asserting that the economy is in the ditch because of the "war" on evil and there is nothing to be done but to keep cutting taxes and invading countries that might threaten us someday. They are committed to this and they aren't going to budge. And we are going to lose if we don't find a way to answer the charge that Democrats are pussies. I like Dean's feisty iconoclasm and I've always thought that Kerry is a good man. Hart is one of the smartest politicians, ever. But, all of these guys are going to be going up against a guy whose hagiography has turned him into a cross between Winston Churchill and Stonewall Jackson. It's bullshit, but you have to picture the flagwaving, near hysterical cheering crowds that will be seen every single day on the whore media for the next two years as President AWOL begins his re-election campign in earnest. And they will consistently portray him as resolute, strong, manly, etc., etc., etc., while Kerry will be seen as a creature of the Senate debating society and Dean as an obscure northern Governor with no foreign policy experience. Hart = Monkey Business. And, to ignore the importance of the southern constituency at a time when the public is very evenly divided is folly. As Michael Lind pointed out in his fascinating article called "America's Tribes", the martial tradition in the south is a fundamental, defining issue in american politics and we Democrats ignore it at our peril. I have held off really looking closely at this guy until now because I had no idea of his domestic positions and I wasn't sure if he was going to be a reliable Democrat. This article , called "Mr Credibility" by Michael Tomasky went a long way toward allaying those concerns, at least in the short term. (I also noticed that he has quite a bit of education and some political experience ('75-'76 White House Fellow OMB) in economics.) Think Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) looks good because he fought in a war? Well, check Clark out. Clark, now 58, fought in Vietnam, too, of course, but that was just his stretching routine. He won a war. He was NATO commander during the Kosovo operation. Granted, this may not be the military equivalent of beating back Adolf Hitler. But it arguably is something of a moral equivalent in that it led to the downfall of a Hitler manqu? in the person of Slobodan Milosevic. It was, however sliced, a successful, multilateral mission that largely achieved its objectives, both military and political. And the Kosovo campaign was merely the most recent in a long line of Clark's feats. After graduating from high school in Little Rock, Ark., in 1962, he went to West Point, where he finished first in his class; after that, to Oxford University, where he earned a master's degree in philosophy, politics and economics as a Rhodes Scholar (an Arkansas Rhodes Scholar, eh?); to Vietnam in the late 1960s; thence up the ladder, all the way to NATO command, which Bill Clinton bestowed on him in 1997. Although both from Arkansas, Clinton and Clark first met, Clark says, at a 1965 student leadership conference while both were in college. Since then, Clark has won the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, a Silver Star, a Purple Heart, and more accolades and decorations than Secretariat. So there's all that. And there's this: He votes Democratic. In Arkansas most voters enroll with no party affiliation; you show up on primary day and select the ballot of whichever party you want to support. Clark told me he voted in the Democratic primary in last year's state elections. He seriously considered seeking the Democratic nomination for governor of Arkansas in 2002, challenging Republican incumbent Mike Huckabee. He told me in an interview that he favors both abortion rights and affirmative action. We spoke just after the Bush administration filed its brief against the University of Michigan's admissions policy, and Clark said he was "surprised and dismayed" by the president's decision. He has "tremendous regard" for the Clintons. And, just as a little sweetener for the culture department, he quotes Bob Dylan toward the end of his book, Waging Modern War, and writes affectionately about the protest folk music that he used to love to listen to as a young man. A lot of this is still sketchy, but I am gravely concerned that we are going to be in a campaign framed as if it is between John Wayne and Michael Jackson and if that is so, we are going to be in deep shit. I think he could be the one --- and I mean at the top of the ticket, not the bottom." unquote >From: Christopher Cooper >To: "'jack stroube'" , edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: RE: [eDebate] draft wesley clark >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:46:13 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc4-f30.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.165]) by >mc4-s18.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 12:44:57 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc4-f30.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May 2003 12:44:57 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41Jh8w06771;Thu, 1 May 2003 >15:43:08 -0400 >Received: from exm01c.apac.planning.org ([216.1.122.17])by www.cross-x.com >(8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41JgJw06655for ; Thu, 1 >May 2003 15:42:19 -0400 >Received: by exm01c.apac.planning.org with Internet Mail Service >(5.5.2653.19)id <2DWQZ3P9>; Thu, 1 May 2003 14:46:15 -0500 >X-Message-Info: awofoN/YbiWVQpgV4nK0nTlzfKS3pUsG >Message-ID: ><0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143088 at exm01w.apac.planning.org> >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 Sender: >edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 19:44:57.0469 (UTC) >FILETIME=[252212D0:01C3101A] > >Um....what about Howard Dean? > >-----Original Message----- >From: jack stroube [mailto:jackattack7 at hotmail.com] >Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:26 PM >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark > > >concerned democrats and others to the left or even internally disaffected >republicans, > >http://extremecampaigns.com/draftwesley/news.htm > >a grassroots organization in new york city is encouraging people to contact >clark to run because the other candidates got little chance. kerry blows >and looks like a softy w his heinz money, a veritable dukakis new englander >repeat w no southern states to show. kucinich is great but his odds of >getting the nomination are low because he is so fringe. hopefully he will >force compromise on the democratic agenda. the number one priority is to >oust bush and reverse the patriot act and restore some sanity to foreign >policy in the short-term. extreme campaigns is making the poignant >suggestion w foresight that clark is only potential candidate with a >chance. > > forward to all relevant concerned parties. clark has til nov 21 >technically to declare but the sooner the better since it takes millions of >dollars to compete. > >www.draftwesleyclark.com > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Thu May 1 18:44:26 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:44:26 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] more doctored documents 4 rove petition Message-ID: http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-04/30/article04.shtml the latest is the famous paper found talking about a 1998 bin laden visit to iraq. if WMD's and al-qaeda don't matter then why has the president waited so long to announce that the war is over and why are they desperately trying to prove both counts to avoid embarassment. it will be interesting to see if the president refers to piece of paper with all kinds of erasure marks on it as his key piece of evidence of al-qaeda links and 9/11 foreknowledge as puppet chalabi has indicated. another joke speech just like the powell UN delivery squandering public democratic debate. stromboli/kolakowski films please shut down my email account. i am a cyber free speech criminal kicking your ass!!! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mardigras23 Thu May 1 20:44:57 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 01:44:57 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA winners who still need bios Message-ID: The following people still need biography authors: Jonah Feldman Raja Gaddipati Goof Garen Andrew Leong Calum Matheson Tejinder Singh Please send me an e-mail if you are willing to write a bio for one of the above people. ideally, a bio author will know scandalous things about one of the above debaters and not mind sharing them with the rest of the debate community. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dagii Thu May 1 21:16:48 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] Answering Jack and my Flamer + Clarification Message-ID: <20030502021648.B7976299FF@xmxpita.excite.com> Jack: Sorry I missed the inside joke. That aside, I think you seriously undervalue major European achievements. We can start with formal logic, move to rights, and end up somewhere discussing the massive quality of life disparity between the West and the East/South. I still don't see what the impact of kultur theft is OR why there is some loss of kultur. More importantly, I'm not sure why protecting artifacts is worth the potential loss of life of our military personell. Flamer: Wow. Stone tablets. I assume that these are valuable for some scientific reason (btw, scientific epistemology is widely regarded as a WESTERN achievement). I'll agree that the loss of private property is bad, so if you know who those tablets belong to then I think it's horrible that they were stolen. Of course, in a regime where regard for rights is questionable at best, I think there's some defense for not bothering to go to all the trouble. That aside, you proved my point about the double standard pretty well. Nobody launches a flame when European kultur is attacked, but God forbid (which you apparently think he does, considering your desire that I burn) somebody say that there's something wrong with a kultur that is a minority group in the US. Clarification: I honestly think that the comparative value of kultures is a secondary issue at best. What bothers me is the value placed on any kultur at all independent of the quality of life that kultur provides for its adherents and its contribution to the quality of life for those who encounter it. Apparently, this collectivistic idea of kultur is to be valued above the individuals harmed by it. That's really sad. And if I'm ever oppressed, I hope my kultur is not valued above my individuality, and someone restores my rigits and quality of life. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From jackattack7 Thu May 1 22:53:00 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 03:53:00 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] henson's stupid crusade Message-ID: turn the human rights achievement w the hammurabi code of law of which human rights were merely an evolution. how come your boyz is tellin the brown iraqis what the rights is and draftin their constitution for them? because white law is superior and needs to be shoved down brown peoples throats once you liberated dem from the dictator you propped up and gave chemical weapons? are iraqis too stupid to draft their own constitution w/o rummy watching over their shouldas? burroughs cities of the red night turns your human rights achievement. the ideals of liberty originate from pirate enclaves -- particularly captain mission who drafted a constitution that was later ripped off by imperialist, crusading freemason societies trying to reconstitute authority around an elite, aristocratic group once da kings and queens was beheaded. the human rights achievement that you's talkin bout was a deliberate attempt to stifle the democratic experiment. how bout the combustion engine and the white man's ingenuous idea to not run more efficient diesel engines on biofeul like cottonseed oil as they were presented at the 1900 world's fair? whoo, what an achievement or how bout the LA highway scheme developed by general motors and ford to bankrupt LA public transportation? we're talking about some of the earliest known examples of human writing in cuneiform. the 5000 year old vase. come on dipshit, two top cultural advisors have resigned due to admitted negligence and cultural insult. straight up the resignees say that there is no excuse for not protecting the museums w troops. of course, you think that the iraqi oil fields are more worthy of troop lives than iraqi civilization because YOU ARE A FUCKING RACIST ASSHOLE. the FBI has dispatched agents to return milestones in human cultural evolution back to the non-white culture that created them. you are showing the disrespect that is typical of racist, ignorant american culture, yeah, the stupid white fuckers who didn't flinch when bush dropped the word 'crusade' in his historic, idiotic post-9-11 speech. the white house admits the mistake but you can't. FUCK YOU!!! come on asshole, the ACCP met w the pentagon and the state dept prior to the invasion and was protesting iraqi protections against exporting cultural artifacts in an attempt to leverage open saddam's nationalization of babylonian history. we're talking about rich white art dealers that prize the cultural achievements that you arrogantly downplay. typical whitey who won't take responsibility. you dis the value of the artifacts but we know that that is an arrogant lie since rich white dealers plan to make millions off it. archaeological experts are saying that the artifact market is more lucrative than the drug trade while you disrespect "stone tablets". the comparison is to nazi looting of egypt etc. what planet are you on, white boy? stromboli/kolakowski films >From: "Chad Henson" >Reply-To: Dagii at excite.com >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] Answering Jack and my Flamer + Clarification >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:16:48 -0400 (EDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc8-f32.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.168]) by >mc8-s9.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 19:19:34 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc8-f32.law1.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May 2003 19:19:33 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h422HEw06318;Thu, 1 May 2003 >22:17:14 -0400 >Received: from xmxpita.excite.com (nn3.excitenetwork.com >[207.159.120.57])by www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id >h422GUw06184for ; Thu, 1 May 2003 22:16:30 -0400 >Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110)id B7976299FF; >Thu, 1 May 2003 22:16:48 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from [63.141.144.252] by xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; >Thu, 01 May 2003 22:16:48 EST >X-Message-Info: 3az4pzJSlzFGsemEfivbiY5ZpSiXj7Z5 >X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with >any abuse report >X-AntiAbuse: ID = f9ede8e0111606b3b3d49001be139e90 >X-Sender: dagii at excite.com >X-Mailer: PHP >Message-Id: <20030502021648.B7976299FF at xmxpita.excite.com> >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2003 02:19:33.0421 (UTC) >FILETIME=[4519A5D0:01C31051] > > >Jack: Sorry I missed the inside joke. That aside, I think you seriously >undervalue major European achievements. We can start with formal logic, >move to rights, and end up somewhere discussing the massive quality of life >disparity between the West and the East/South. I still don't see what the >impact of kultur theft is OR why there is some loss of kultur. More >importantly, I'm not sure why protecting artifacts is worth the potential >loss of life of our military personell. > >Flamer: Wow. Stone tablets. I assume that these are valuable for some >scientific reason (btw, scientific epistemology is widely regarded as a >WESTERN achievement). I'll agree that the loss of private property is bad, >so if you know who those tablets belong to then I think it's horrible that >they were stolen. Of course, in a regime where regard for rights is >questionable at best, I think there's some defense for not bothering to go >to all the trouble. That aside, you proved my point about the double >standard pretty well. Nobody launches a flame when European kultur is >attacked, but God forbid (which you apparently think he does, considering >your desire that I burn) somebody say that there's something wrong with a >kultur that is a minority group in the US. > >Clarification: I honestly think that the comparative value of kultures is a >secondary issue at best. What bothers me is the value placed on any kultur >at all independent of the quality of life that kultur provides for its >adherents and its contribution to the quality of life for those who >encounter it. Apparently, this collectivistic idea of kultur is to be >valued above the individuals harmed by it. That's really sad. And if I'm >ever oppressed, I hope my kultur is not valued above my individuality, and >someone restores my rigits and quality of life. > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cpwiii Fri May 2 01:00:03 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 01:00:03 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] henson's stupid crusade Message-ID: <000601c31070$13b53490$49fe4cd8@cpwiii> CANNOT follow ya'lls thread-- Seems to me, 1 (one to stripe) human life matters more than the Mona Lisa, or ancient garbage from Iraq--Or, would you like to be that life????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/eaf2cdc2/attachment.html From dagii Fri May 2 06:34:31 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] RE: henson's stupid crusade Message-ID: <20030502113431.42B453CE1@xmxpita.excite.com> <<>> No, rights supersede law. The achievement was discovering that the individual is more important than the collective's whim. <<>> Maybe because they screwed up so badly the last time? That aside, I imagine the reason is to ensure that the US will have access to oil. For all our trouble, I hope that's the case, anyway. <<>> 1. Democracy is primarily a Western value. 2. Democracy isn't inherently valuable; the value of democracy is based on the RIGHT to self-determination (liberty). 3. I'll check the book to see if there's any warant for these outlandish claims of a freemason conspiracy. But frankly, I'm glad that the uneducated weren't making decisions earlier in our country's history. <<>> You really need to look at what you're writing. You claim that choosing a less efficient fuel was really bad. However, you've ignored the achievements of the combustion engine! It allows for the rapid transfer of goods (to mutual benefit), increased opportunities for education and travel, massive increases in the amount of goods that can be produced, etc. I'd say the combustion engine was one of Western society's great achievements. The highway system of our country has allowed for rapid expansion into areas that were previously unpopulated or sparsely populated. As for LA specifically, I think you need to show some benefit of public transportation. Naturally, without the government interfering in the economic sphere, there wouldn't even be this conflict. But I digress. <<>> We're talking about old pottery. Protecting old pottery with human lives. Protecting old pottery that will bring no value to our country and make nobody's life easier while diverting valuable manpower from the oil fields, which contain a substance that makes our lives easier. <<>> [sarcasm=medium]Government officials said it. It must be true. Who would have thought that CULTURAL ADVISORS would scream for the protection of museums? That's so out of character, there must be a reason![/sarcasm] <<>> That's kind of non sequitor. You DO realize that you acuse me of being racist for saying that some old pottery from an ancient civilization is not worth human lives, but you are unwilling to accept the label for your attacks on white European culture. I think it's pretty clear who's the REAL racist. But even if we ignore that, I can think of many ways my life will benefit from oil. I will never see the vase or the tablets. Naturally, I think that if we're going to protect the oil fields or the museums, I'll go for the oil fields. <<>> So what? Who owns them now? Did they own them originally? <<>> There's a difference between "crusade" and "Crusade". Bush's remark was clearly the first. The word "crusade" has become a part of normal language. And since you're apparently male, and I'm not into sodomy, I'll decline your offer to fuck. Please stop suggesting it, or I may turn liberal and file a random, pointless, unwarranted sexual harassment charge. <<>> Which would put your precious artifacts into the hands of people with an incentive to protect them, while simultaneously dealing a blow to the nationalization of property. <<>> Somebody is foolish enough to pay for anything. Ayn Rand said, "A genius is a genius, regardless of the number of morons who belong to the same race - and a moron is a moron, regardless of the number of geniuses who share his racial origin." I have no clue what race you are, but those who share your origin should be thankful she was right. Because you, Jack, are a moron. Good night. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From grindy22 Fri May 2 08:13:25 2003 From: grindy22 (matt grindy) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 13:13:25 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/8b87a41b/attachment.htm From ccooper Fri May 2 08:50:39 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:50:39 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A733707114308E@exm01w.apac.planning.org> None of this is "Clark crushes Dean." At best it is "Dean can't pick up southern votes" and "Clark won a lot of battles." I dunno. I think you have to prove that Clark can win southern votes. Or that they matter. Momentum coming out of Iowa and New Hamp. will be more important (as will fundraising...which will be Dean's big challenge...Oh...and Dean polls VERY well in New Hamp.)...and then if they can sustain that momentum through S.Carolina. In the end, the party will fall behind the front-runner and only AFTER the nomination will the southern states be key (and the game is entirely different by then). What, exactly, is your beef with Dean? -----Original Message----- From: jack stroube [mailto:jackattack7 at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:36 PM To: ccooper at planning.org; edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: RE: [eDebate] draft wesley clark already posted as "Clark crushes Dean" to edebate. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2003_03_09_digbysblog_archive.html#90475454 "pussies" wouldn't be my word of choice but i agree w the residual sentiment especially the idea that dean or kerry would be a dukakis/mondale southern shutout repeat (before karl rove texas used to vote democrat with kennedy and georgia peach carter riding that but we're talkin bout losin florida, texas, and almost the whole south). don't get me wrong, i ain't crazy about clark and will definitely go after him if he gets elected but he's a hell of alot better than bush and maybe the only shot at regime change. we should at least draft him into the primaries and see if he beats the northerners. forward relevant info to concerned parties. quote: "I hope that the Democrats face up to the reality that national security is going to be the foremost issue in the coming Presidential campaign and find a way to deal with the fact that we are considered to be complete losers on the issue. This is a HUGE problem and it's not going to magically disappear no matter how badly they manage to fuck up the economy. They are going to keep asserting that the economy is in the ditch because of the "war" on evil and there is nothing to be done but to keep cutting taxes and invading countries that might threaten us someday. They are committed to this and they aren't going to budge. And we are going to lose if we don't find a way to answer the charge that Democrats are pussies. I like Dean's feisty iconoclasm and I've always thought that Kerry is a good man. Hart is one of the smartest politicians, ever. But, all of these guys are going to be going up against a guy whose hagiography has turned him into a cross between Winston Churchill and Stonewall Jackson. It's bullshit, but you have to picture the flagwaving, near hysterical cheering crowds that will be seen every single day on the whore media for the next two years as President AWOL begins his re-election campign in earnest. And they will consistently portray him as resolute, strong, manly, etc., etc., etc., while Kerry will be seen as a creature of the Senate debating society and Dean as an obscure northern Governor with no foreign policy experience. Hart = Monkey Business. And, to ignore the importance of the southern constituency at a time when the public is very evenly divided is folly. As Michael Lind pointed out in his fascinating article called "America's Tribes", the martial tradition in the south is a fundamental, defining issue in american politics and we Democrats ignore it at our peril. I have held off really looking closely at this guy until now because I had no idea of his domestic positions and I wasn't sure if he was going to be a reliable Democrat. This article , called "Mr Credibility" by Michael Tomasky went a long way toward allaying those concerns, at least in the short term. (I also noticed that he has quite a bit of education and some political experience ('75-'76 White House Fellow OMB) in economics.) Think Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) looks good because he fought in a war? Well, check Clark out. Clark, now 58, fought in Vietnam, too, of course, but that was just his stretching routine. He won a war. He was NATO commander during the Kosovo operation. Granted, this may not be the military equivalent of beating back Adolf Hitler. But it arguably is something of a moral equivalent in that it led to the downfall of a Hitler manqu? in the person of Slobodan Milosevic. It was, however sliced, a successful, multilateral mission that largely achieved its objectives, both military and political. And the Kosovo campaign was merely the most recent in a long line of Clark's feats. After graduating from high school in Little Rock, Ark., in 1962, he went to West Point, where he finished first in his class; after that, to Oxford University, where he earned a master's degree in philosophy, politics and economics as a Rhodes Scholar (an Arkansas Rhodes Scholar, eh?); to Vietnam in the late 1960s; thence up the ladder, all the way to NATO command, which Bill Clinton bestowed on him in 1997. Although both from Arkansas, Clinton and Clark first met, Clark says, at a 1965 student leadership conference while both were in college. Since then, Clark has won the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, a Silver Star, a Purple Heart, and more accolades and decorations than Secretariat. So there's all that. And there's this: He votes Democratic. In Arkansas most voters enroll with no party affiliation; you show up on primary day and select the ballot of whichever party you want to support. Clark told me he voted in the Democratic primary in last year's state elections. He seriously considered seeking the Democratic nomination for governor of Arkansas in 2002, challenging Republican incumbent Mike Huckabee. He told me in an interview that he favors both abortion rights and affirmative action. We spoke just after the Bush administration filed its brief against the University of Michigan's admissions policy, and Clark said he was "surprised and dismayed" by the president's decision. He has "tremendous regard" for the Clintons. And, just as a little sweetener for the culture department, he quotes Bob Dylan toward the end of his book, Waging Modern War, and writes affectionately about the protest folk music that he used to love to listen to as a young man. A lot of this is still sketchy, but I am gravely concerned that we are going to be in a campaign framed as if it is between John Wayne and Michael Jackson and if that is so, we are going to be in deep shit. I think he could be the one --- and I mean at the top of the ticket, not the bottom." unquote >From: Christopher Cooper >To: "'jack stroube'" , edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: RE: [eDebate] draft wesley clark >Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:46:13 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc4-f30.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.165]) by >mc4-s18.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May >2003 12:44:57 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc4-f30.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 1 May 2003 12:44:57 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41Jh8w06771;Thu, 1 May 2003 >15:43:08 -0400 >Received: from exm01c.apac.planning.org ([216.1.122.17])by www.cross-x.com >(8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h41JgJw06655for ; Thu, 1 >May 2003 15:42:19 -0400 >Received: by exm01c.apac.planning.org with Internet Mail Service >(5.5.2653.19)id <2DWQZ3P9>; Thu, 1 May 2003 14:46:15 -0500 >X-Message-Info: awofoN/YbiWVQpgV4nK0nTlzfKS3pUsG >Message-ID: ><0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143088 at exm01w.apac.planning.org> >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 Sender: >edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2003 19:44:57.0469 (UTC) >FILETIME=[252212D0:01C3101A] > >Um....what about Howard Dean? > >-----Original Message----- >From: jack stroube [mailto:jackattack7 at hotmail.com] >Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:26 PM >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark > > >concerned democrats and others to the left or even internally disaffected >republicans, > >http://extremecampaigns.com/draftwesley/news.htm > >a grassroots organization in new york city is encouraging people to contact >clark to run because the other candidates got little chance. kerry blows >and looks like a softy w his heinz money, a veritable dukakis new englander >repeat w no southern states to show. kucinich is great but his odds of >getting the nomination are low because he is so fringe. hopefully he will >force compromise on the democratic agenda. the number one priority is to >oust bush and reverse the patriot act and restore some sanity to foreign >policy in the short-term. extreme campaigns is making the poignant >suggestion w foresight that clark is only potential candidate with a >chance. > > forward to all relevant concerned parties. clark has til nov 21 >technically to declare but the sooner the better since it takes millions of >dollars to compete. > >www.draftwesleyclark.com > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/f5e3aae1/attachment.html From ccooper Fri May 2 09:27:21 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:27:21 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Ans. Henson - Coop Rants About Internal Combustion Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143092@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Okay...without getting into the whole "kultur" debate, I have to take issue with this claim: "The highway system of our country has allowed for rapid expansion into areas that were previously unpopulated or sparsely populated. As for LA specifically, I think you need to show some benefit of public transportation. Naturally, without the government interfering in the economic sphere, there wouldn't even be this conflict." While the internal combustion engine may have increased the mobility of goods and services, you have to prove that its crowding out of other alternatives (which would have done the same) is somehow beneficial. In any case...your "rapid expansion" into sparsely populated areas arg. is just plain ludicrous. The highway system is one huge government subsidy of a particular consumer choice (largely dictated by a white populace...from the 1930's until now) that sucks money from urban taxpayers, increases sprawl which leaches more taxes for expanded infrastructure, increases the service area of first responders (which decreases response times), and promotes socio-economic segregation (mostly along racial lines) as white suburanites are subsidized to flee the city into gated suburban enclaves of large lot McMansions. Even the conservative CATO institute has found: "To be sure, user charges and gasoline taxes approximately equal the construction and maintenance costs of major highways. But the financing of urban beltways and radial expressways from the Federal Highway Trust Fund represents a subsidy to suburban sprawl -- because all highway users pay taxes in proportion to their gasoline usage, but urban beltways and expressways are the most expensive to build and maintain. And because the number of lanes of urban highways is based on peak-period rather than off-peak travel needs, the cost of constructing and maintaining urban expressways should be paid by peak users only. For example, a 1975 study showed that urban interstate highway costs averaged about 1.3 cents per vehicle-mile; however, the cost of serving peak-hour users in Boston and San Francisco was as high as 10 to 30 cents per vehicle-mile. If the users of such roads during peak times had to pay for their costs, the supply of and demand for such roads would be much less." A kind of tyranny of the majority has set in. And it's getting worse. The Surface Transportation Policy Project (STPP) has documented an emerging trend away from funding transportation projects through gas taxes (which gas users pay) and toward using general revenue taxes (which we all pay). In 2002, of 41 state ballot measures to finance transportation, only one proposed increasing gas taxes to pay for highway improvements - and voters rejected that suggestion overwhelmingly. The long-term effects are ominous. By shifting the cost from users to all of us who pay local property and sales taxes, drivers displace resources needed for other core functions of local government - inner-city schools, police, fire protection, affordable housing, parks and recreation, welfare and poverty reduction, job training. Your choice of Gods costs all of us. And I spit upon it. =P~~ COOP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/c1d1b198/attachment.htm From les_phillips98 Fri May 2 09:45:51 2003 From: les_phillips98 (Les Phillips) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] LEXINGTON SEEKS ASSISTANT COACHES Message-ID: <20030502144551.71826.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> The annual call: Lexington seeks excellent high school and college graduates (and postgraduates, for that matter) who are headed for the Boston area this fall and would like to do some coaching and/or traveling. We need people who like to stay home and hear practice as well as people who want to be out on the week3ends. A friendly program with lots of interesting kids; never boring. Large and small commitments all welcome. Respond to this address, or see me at TOC. Many thanks! Les Phillips ===== WGTBWLEO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Samnelson4 Fri May 2 10:09:38 2003 From: Samnelson4 (Samnelson4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:09:38 EDT Subject: [eDebate] University of Rochester coaching positions! Message-ID: <12a.2900773a.2be3e432@aol.com> The University of Rochester will be hiring a number of new coaches for this coming year. The squad is large. The work is hard. The pay is not enough. Almost everyone who has held one of these positions has said it was one of the best jobs they have ever had. If you love debate and are interested, send a letter expressing your interest and a resume listing three references to: Sam Nelson Director of Forensics Department of English Morey Hall, Fourth Floor University of Rochester Rochester, NY 14627 Best, Sam From Candyass075 Fri May 2 11:08:48 2003 From: Candyass075 (Candyass075 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:08:48 EDT Subject: [eDebate] DAVE FROM BAKERSFIELD Message-ID: <12e.292d762c.2be3f210@aol.com> hey this is candice.....i tried to get my email address to you before i left from phi rho pi but i don't know if you got it but you should email me at candyass075 at aol.com...i just had some questions for you...oh and give loriann my email i wanted to talk to her too...talk to you later.. candice from jccc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/f22abd55/attachment.html From BERCHNORTO Fri May 2 13:28:06 2003 From: BERCHNORTO (BERCHNORTO at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 14:28:06 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] novice debate online? Message-ID: <45C7C62D.575F3913.09C05152@aol.com> Can anyone tell me if there is somewhere on the Web where you can find a video/audio version of a novice debate? Thanks. --Neil Berch West Virginia University From alfred.snider Fri May 2 13:37:33 2003 From: alfred.snider (Alfred C. Snider) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 14:37:33 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] novice debate online? In-Reply-To: <45C7C62D.575F3913.09C05152@aol.com> References: <45C7C62D.575F3913.09C05152@aol.com> Message-ID: >Can anyone tell me if there is somewhere on the Web where you can >find a video/audio version of a novice debate? Thanks. >--Neil Berch >West Virginia University > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate On DEBATE CENTRAL, of course. At http://debate.uvm.edu/watchdebate.html there are three "for new debater" debates. The one I like best is... SCHOOL UNIFORMS SAMPLE DEBATE ON 1999-2000 USA NATIONAL HIGH SCHOOL DEBATE TOPIC A debate on school uniforms and academic achievement designed for novices and those unfamiliar with policy debating. The speech times are shortened and the delivery is slow so that new debaters can follow the issue throughout the debate. Staged by University of Vermont students and staff. 80kps Connection Part One 20:11 Part Two 20:51 -- --------------------------- Alfred C. Snider, AKA Tuna Edwin W. Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont 475 Main, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA World Debate Institute; World Debate Organization 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-0097 office; 802-656-4275 fax http://debate.uvm.edu/; http://debate.uvm.edu/tuna.html; http://debate.uvm.edu/ldu.html ; http://debate.uvm.edu/wdo.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/65cec27f/attachment.htm From jeradfor Fri May 2 13:59:58 2003 From: jeradfor (James Edgar Radford Jr.) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [eDebate] UGA law; Athens, GA Message-ID: <8263714.1051901998881.JavaMail.cpadmin@cp.samford.edu> Any debate types going to UGA next semester? Planning to live in Athens for any reason at all? Jamie Radford is looking for a roommate. Hit me up. Peace the flying j From jackattack7 Fri May 2 14:35:35 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 19:35:35 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] henson's crusade gets stupider Message-ID: you went for the decoys so that you could expose your deep-seated racism but you got crushed on the line by line about the looting. you have no evidence of your own and no answers to the documented evidence that crushes your straw man args. 1) no evidence from you at all particularly on the claim that troops lives would have been at stake. no govt proclamation that they consciously chose not to protect the museum because lives would have been at stake. instead just govt confessions that they made a mistake despite forewarning. you guys main defense is a blatant, manufactured lie that has nothing to do with anything. shirley the looters would not have sophisticated military equipment and training to even threaten troop lives deterring any actions that they might have taken against military personnel. all the troops would have to do is fire their guns like they do on protesters on the streets of iraq. 2) actually the ONLY evidence presented indicates that no gun firing would have been necessary since it was experts sent in by the ACCP who looted the museum. this is a turn that you have no answer to -- the US troops were ordered not to protect the museum so that experts could get the choice pieces worth the most money. NO FORCE NECESSARY UNLESS YOU OR BELLSOUTHWHOEVER CAN PRODUCE A CARD. a) previously highlighted citation quote "The museum was the victim of a carefully planned assault. The thieves who took the most valuable material came prepared with equipment to lift the heaviest objects, which the staff could not move from the galleries, and had keys to the vaults where the most valuable items were stored. Not since the Nazis systematically stripped the museums of Europe has such a crime been committed. The US online publication of BusinessWeek magazine reiterated the theme of premeditation and conspiracy in the looting of Iraq?s museums in an April 17 article headlined ?Were Baghdad?s Antiquity Thieves Ready?? The article carries the subtitle: ?They may have known just what they were looking for because dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance.? BusinessWeek writes: ?It was almost as if the perpetrators were waiting for Baghdad to fall to make their move. Gil J. Stein, a professor of archaeology at the University of Chicago, which has been conducting digs in Iraq for 80 years, believes that dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance. ?They were looking for very specific artifacts,? he says. ?They knew where to look.??unquote b) also previously quoted -- ACCP MEETING W PENTAGON AND STATE DEPT PRIOR TO INVASION quote: "It has emerged that a coalition of antiquities collectors and arts lawyers, calling itself the American Council for Cultural Policy (ACCP), met with US defence and state department officials prior to the start of military action to offer its assistance in preserving the country's invaluable archaeological collections. ? The group is known to consist of a number of influential dealers who favour a relaxation of Iraq's tight restrictions on the ownership and export of antiquities. Its treasurer, William Pearlstein, has described Iraq's laws as 'retentionist' and has said he would support a post-war government that would make it easier to have antiquities dispersed to the US. ? Before the Gulf war, a main strand of the ACCP's campaigning has been to persuade its government to revise the Cultural Property Implementation Act in order to minimise efforts by foreign nations to block the import into the US of objects, particularly antiques. ? News of the group's meeting with the government has alarmed scientists and archaeologists who fear the ACCP is working to a hidden agenda that will see the US authorities ease restrictions on the movement of Iraqi artefacts after a coalition victory in Iraq." unquote c) new evidence -- a northern californian collector was alerted prior to the invasion that iraqi artifacts would soon be available according to the LA Times. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/muse-a16.shtml quote: "The Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday a Northern California collector of Iraqi art had been "contacted surreptitiously before the war and told that Iraqi antiquities would soon become available. He speculated that the thieves acted in accordance with a plan, but no such design has been revealed." ? Appeasing a group of millionaires with a taste for Oriental curiosities would certainly fit the profile of the Bush administration. Much more fundamental, however, is the political value for the American ruling elite of allowing such repositories of Iraq's history and culture to be destroyed." unquote 3) the violence that ensued was part of a planned cover up. again you have zero answers to the arguments on the flow. "After the fate of Baghdad museum, it can only be concluded that the generalised looting and arson at the library served to cover up a more systematic crime, in which select manuscripts were stolen for wealthy collectors. In the process they connived in the burning of books?another Nazi practice." 4) turn -- any violence was ENCOURAGED by US troops complicit in the racist culture destruction -- more proof that any violence could have been prevented if US troops had been properly ordered to protect iraqi treasures http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/iraq-a15.shtml quote: "The widespread looting in Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Kirkuk and other Iraqi cities, following the collapse of the Ba'athist regime of President Saddam Hussein, was not merely an incidental byproduct of the US military conquest of Iraq. It was deliberately encouraged and fostered by the Bush administration and the Pentagon for definite political and economic reasons... ? The US military stood by and permitted the ransacking of the museum, an incalculable blow to Iraqi and world culture, just as they allowed and even encouraged the looting of hospitals, universities, libraries and government social service buildings. The occupation forces protected only the Ministry of Oil, with its detailed inventory of Iraqi oil reserves, as well as the Ministry of Interior, the headquarters of the ousted regime's secret police... General Tommy Franks, the overall commander of all US and British forces in Iraq, issued an order to unit commanders that specifically prohibited the use of force to prevent looting. This instruction was only modified after several days because of mounting protests by Iraqi citizens over the destruction of their social infrastructure... ? The role of the US military went beyond simply standing by, and extended to actually encouraging and facilitating looting. According to a report in the Washington Post, after the US military reopened two bridges across the Tigris River to civilian traffic, "the immediate result was that looters raced across and extended their plundering to the Planning Ministry and other buildings that had been spared." ? Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, published an interview April 11 with a Swedish researcher of Middle Eastern ancestry who had gone to Iraq to serve as a human shield. Khaled Bayoumi told the newspaper, "I happened to be right there just as the American troops encouraged people to begin the plundering." "unquote _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dagii Fri May 2 16:16:50 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] henson's crusade gets stupider Message-ID: <20030502211650.63148133D1@xmxpita.excite.com> The quality of your evidence didn't require a response. Let's look at your "flow". For the sake of simplicity, I'll grant that a meeting between the ACCP and the Administration took place. There's no evidence pointing to what was actually decided at that meeting. I'll also grant that antique dealers want the laws against transferring antiques relaxed. That's common sense. new evidence -- a northern californian collector was alerted prior to the invasion that iraqi artifacts would soon be available according to the LA Times. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/muse-a16.shtml quote: "The Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday a Northern California collector of Iraqi art had been "contacted surreptitiously before the war and told that Iraqi antiquities would soon become available. He speculated that the thieves acted in accordance with a plan, but no such design has been revealed." Appeasing a group of millionaires with a taste for Oriental curiosities would certainly fit the profile of the Bush administration. Much more fundamental, however, is the political value for the American ruling elite of allowing such repositories of Iraq's history and culture to be destroyed." unquote Your evidence says that someone said that Iraqi artifacts would be available after the war. Who would have suspected chaos and looting after a bombing campaign? Only anyone w/ half a brain. 3) the violence that ensued was part of a planned cover up. again you have zero answers to the arguments on the flow. "After the fate of Baghdad museum, it can only be concluded that the generalised looting and arson at the library served to cover up a more systematic crime, in which select manuscripts were stolen for wealthy collectors. In the process they connived in the burning of books?another Nazi practice." This evidence (predictably) lacks a warrant or a citation. It takes two occurrances - general looting and stealing by collectors - and completely ignores the Razor by suggesting that the two are connected by a vast conspiracy. 4) turn -- any violence was ENCOURAGED by US troops complicit in the racist culture destruction -- more proof that any violence could have been prevented if US troops had been properly ordered to protect iraqi treasures http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/iraq-a15.shtml quote: "The widespread looting in Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Kirkuk and other Iraqi cities, following the collapse of the Ba'athist regime of President Saddam Hussein, was not merely an incidental byproduct of the US military conquest of Iraq. It was deliberately encouraged and fostered by the Bush administration and the Pentagon for definite political and economic reasons..." What reasons? How do they know this? "The US military stood by and permitted the ransacking of the museum, an incalculable blow to Iraqi and world culture, just as they allowed and even encouraged the looting of hospitals, universities, libraries and government social service buildings. The occupation forces protected only the Ministry of Oil, with its detailed inventory of Iraqi oil reserves, as well as the Ministry of Interior, the headquarters of the ousted regime's secret police..." Right. How is looting a museum a blow to Iraqi and world culture? I've asked that question several times now. "General Tommy Franks, the overall commander of all US and British forces in Iraq, issued an order to unit commanders that specifically prohibited the use of force to prevent looting. This instruction was only modified after several days because of mounting protests by Iraqi citizens over the destruction of their social infrastructure..." Maybe the order was to avoid killing Iraqi civilians... who WERE doing most (if not all) of the looting, after all. Had he ordered troups to fire on looters, you'd come on here condemning the harsh actions of our government! "The role of the US military went beyond simply standing by, and extended to actually encouraging and facilitating looting. According to a report in the Washington Post, after the US military reopened two bridges across the Tigris River to civilian traffic, 'the immediate result was that looters raced across and extended their plundering to the Planning Ministry and other buildings that had been spared.' IRAQI CIVILIANS looted and plundered as soon as they had the opportunity! If they don't respect their culture, even granting you an actual HARM to culture when artifacts end up in Western museums, why the hell should we? "Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, published an interview April 11 with a Swedish researcher of Middle Eastern ancestry who had gone to Iraq to serve as a human shield. Khaled Bayoumi told the newspaper, 'I happened to be right there just as the American troops encouraged people to begin the plundering.'"unquote First, Bayoumi is hardly credible. He DID volunteer to be a human shield, after all. You can't get much more moronic than going TO someplace that explosives will be discharged knowing that the country you're trying to stop has no objection to going ahead with or without you there. His stupidity aside, his actions demonstrated a hostility to US military forces. Anything he says is suspect. Second, an article from a socialist website decrying the US and the Bush Administration is even less credible than an article in an NRA publication bashing Ted Kennedy without evidence. NOW that we've established that all your evidence is crap, try to actually come up with responses on how kultur is harmed by artifacts staying in Western museums and why this kultur loss would be a bad thing. Yours in Debate, Chad Henson _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From jackattack7 Fri May 2 17:34:11 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:34:11 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] henson's crusade gets stupider Message-ID: good job -- no response needed -- you dropped the key evidence that experts were responsible for the looting. that's the business week card which is of better quality than your NON EVIDENCE. in the card which you dropped because you can't answer it, an archaeological expert on iraq assesses that it must have been experts since they knew what to look for. this provides credibility to the claim that the ACCP rigged the whole thing. the business week card says that items were ordered by rich white dealers in advance. also see the slate.msn card below where 9 british archaeologists corroborate the allegations of this U of Chicago archaeologist. the warrant behind the card which you can't answer takes out any idea that iraqi civilians would have been protected since the military let experts go in and get the goods for the rich dealers according to the ACCP plan arranged w the pentagon and the state department. you have no evidence that the museum was not protected in an effort to save lives. you throw that shit out there as your own hypothesis w no warrants except bush style common sense. the only possible argument you could have but you are too stupid to make is that the military did not guard the museum to save lives of experts hired by rich art dealers. further the card that business week card gives credibility that looters were let in after the experts to cover up the work that they did for the ACCP. the card says that this the only logical conclusion. the business week evidence concludes that experts went in first. you have no answer. all of the key pieces were alredy taken. it only makes sense that iraqi street looters were encouraged to go in next. all of your evidentiary take outs and nitpicking fall when you drop the business week card. you need some evidence to say that the reason behind not protecting the museums was to protect iraqi lives (like the US military gives a shit about iraqi lives firing on peaceful protesters everyday to intimidate the movement to expel occupiers). HEY DIPSHIT, YOUR THE ONE WITH NO WARRANT FOR YOUR BIG STUPID ARGUMENT. THE US MILITARY LINE DUMBFUCKER IS THAT THE LOOTING WAS NOT FORSEEABLE DESPITE REPEATED WARNINGS. GET IT STRAIGHT AND STOP THE PROTECT LIVES NONSENSE THAT NO ONE IS SAYING ANYWHERE HENCE YOUR NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CRAPPY CLAIM. here's the business week card one more time. let's see if you can drop it again because you suck so bad at debate: "The US online publication of BusinessWeek magazine reiterated the theme of premeditation and conspiracy in the looting of Iraq?s museums in an April 17 article headlined ?Were Baghdad?s Antiquity Thieves Ready?? The article carries the subtitle: ?They may have known just what they were looking for because dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance.? BusinessWeek writes: ?It was almost as if the perpetrators were waiting for Baghdad to fall to make their move. Gil J. Stein, a professor of archaeology at the University of Chicago, which has been conducting digs in Iraq for 80 years, believes that dealers ordered the most important pieces well in advance. ?They were looking for very specific artifacts,? he says. ?They knew where to look.??unquote more evidence: 9 british archaeologists agree with the claim that dipshit can't answer -- more mainstream press -- it's call NOT CARING which is the main sentiment that you convey in your sophistry -- YOU ARE A RACIST AND YOU DON"T GIVE A SHIT -- protecting lives is warrantless bullshit http://slate.msn.com/id/2081647/ quote: "Why didn't anyone act? How hard would it have been for someone to call Tommy Franks and say, "This is getting out of hand"? Put bluntly, it seems like the administration just didn't care enough to stop it?an indifference that's part and parcel with its general attitude toward anything other than its military objectives. Rumsfeld appeared genuinely annoyed even to have to answer questions about the ransacking of the museum and library: "We didn't allow it to happen. It happened," he said. This ham-fisted diplomacy immediately gave rise to anti-American conspiracy-mongering: Nine British archaeologists suggested that, in turning a blind eye to the looting, the Bush administration was succumbing to pressure from private collectors to allow treasures to be traded on the open market." unquote where's your evidence, asshole who can't answer the good evidence? stromboli >From: "Chad Henson" >Reply-To: Dagii at excite.com >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: RE: [eDebate] henson's crusade gets stupider >Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:16:50 -0400 (EDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.24]) by >mc1-s19.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 2 May >2003 14:20:19 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 2 May 2003 14:19:26 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h42LHPw28781;Fri, 2 May 2003 >17:17:25 -0400 >Received: from xmxpita.excite.com (nn2.excitenetwork.com >[207.159.120.56])by www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id >h42LGVw28686for ; Fri, 2 May 2003 17:16:31 -0400 >Received: by xmxpita.excite.com (Postfix, from userid 110)id 63148133D1; >Fri, 2 May 2003 17:16:50 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from [136.160.144.175] by xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com via HTTP; >Fri, 02 May 2003 17:16:50 EST >X-Message-Info: 3az4pzJSlzFGsemEfivbiY5ZpSiXj7Z5 >X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with >any abuse report >X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7578f7805711529739bcbadb27375434 >X-Sender: dagii at excite.com >X-Mailer: PHP >Message-Id: <20030502211650.63148133D1 at xmxpita.excite.com> >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2003 21:19:26.0919 (UTC) >FILETIME=[82CD3D70:01C310F0] > > >The quality of your evidence didn't require a response. Let's look at your >"flow". For the sake of simplicity, I'll grant that a meeting between the >ACCP and the Administration took place. There's no evidence pointing to >what was actually decided at that meeting. I'll also grant that antique >dealers want the laws against transferring antiques relaxed. That's common >sense. > >new evidence -- a northern californian collector was alerted prior to the >invasion that iraqi artifacts would soon be available according to the LA >Times. >http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/muse-a16.shtml quote: "The Los >Angeles Times reported Tuesday a Northern California collector of Iraqi >art had been "contacted surreptitiously before the war and told that Iraqi >antiquities would soon become available. He speculated that the thieves >acted in accordance with a plan, but no such design has been revealed." >Appeasing a group of millionaires with a taste for Oriental curiosities >would certainly fit the profile of the Bush administration. Much more >fundamental, however, is the political value for the American ruling elite >of allowing such repositories of Iraq's history and culture to be >destroyed." unquote > >Your evidence says that someone said that Iraqi artifacts would be >available after the war. Who would have suspected chaos and looting after >a bombing campaign? Only anyone w/ half a brain. > >3) the violence that ensued was part of a planned cover up. again you >have zero answers to the arguments on the flow. >"After the fate of Baghdad museum, it can only be concluded that the >generalised looting and arson at the library served to cover up a more >systematic crime, in which select manuscripts were stolen for wealthy >collectors. In the process they connived in the burning of books?another >Nazi practice." > >This evidence (predictably) lacks a warrant or a citation. It takes two >occurrances - general looting and stealing by collectors - and completely >ignores the Razor by suggesting that the two are connected by a vast >conspiracy. > >4) turn -- any violence was ENCOURAGED by US troops complicit in the racist >culture destruction -- more proof that any violence could have been >prevented if US troops had been properly ordered to protect iraqi treasures >http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/iraq-a15.shtml > >quote: "The widespread looting in Baghdad, Basra, Mosul, Kirkuk and other >Iraqi cities, following the collapse of the Ba'athist regime of President >Saddam Hussein, was not merely an incidental byproduct of the US military >conquest of Iraq. It was deliberately encouraged and fostered by the Bush >administration and the Pentagon for definite political and economic >reasons..." > >What reasons? How do they know this? > >"The US military stood by and permitted the ransacking of the museum, an >incalculable blow to Iraqi and world culture, just as they allowed and even >encouraged the looting of hospitals, universities, libraries and government >social service buildings. The occupation forces protected only the Ministry >of Oil, with its detailed inventory of Iraqi oil reserves, as well as the >Ministry of Interior, the headquarters of the ousted regime's secret >police..." > >Right. How is looting a museum a blow to Iraqi and world culture? I've >asked that question several times now. > >"General Tommy Franks, the overall commander of all US and British forces >in Iraq, issued an order to unit commanders that specifically prohibited >the use of force to prevent looting. This instruction was only modified >after several days because of mounting protests by Iraqi citizens over the >destruction of their social infrastructure..." > >Maybe the order was to avoid killing Iraqi civilians... who WERE doing most >(if not all) of the looting, after all. Had he ordered troups to fire on >looters, you'd come on here condemning the harsh actions of our government! > >"The role of the US military went beyond simply standing by, and extended >to actually encouraging and facilitating looting. According to a report in >the Washington Post, after the US military reopened two bridges across the >Tigris River to civilian traffic, 'the immediate result was that looters >raced across and extended their plundering to the Planning Ministry and >other buildings that had been spared.' > >IRAQI CIVILIANS looted and plundered as soon as they had the opportunity! >If they don't respect their culture, even granting you an actual HARM to >culture when artifacts end up in Western museums, why the hell should we? > >"Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, published an interview April >11 with a Swedish researcher of Middle Eastern ancestry who had gone to >Iraq to serve as a human shield. Khaled Bayoumi told the newspaper, 'I >happened to be right there just as the American troops encouraged people to >begin the plundering.'"unquote > >First, Bayoumi is hardly credible. He DID volunteer to be a human shield, >after all. You can't get much more moronic than going TO someplace that >explosives will be discharged knowing that the country you're trying to >stop has no objection to going ahead with or without you there. His >stupidity aside, his actions demonstrated a hostility to US military >forces. Anything he says is suspect. Second, an article from a socialist >website decrying the US and the Bush Administration is even less credible >than an article in an NRA publication bashing Ted Kennedy without evidence. > >NOW that we've established that all your evidence is crap, try to actually >come up with responses on how kultur is harmed by artifacts staying in >Western museums and why this kultur loss would be a bad thing. > >Yours in Debate, > >Chad Henson > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From XenLove Fri May 2 19:23:19 2003 From: XenLove (XenLove at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:23:19 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Paging UC-Fullerton Message-ID: <50.1c1a94b1.2be465f7@aol.com> Hi, I was just asking if I could get the tags and cites of your Chaloupka/Baudrillard 1AC, its the aff talking about nuclear will never happen, and nuclear weapons are signs invested with a political economy, etc. I watched you run it against MSU SS @ NU. Thanx for anything -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030502/5c075b1d/attachment.html From dagii Fri May 2 19:48:35 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] RE: My crusade - an apology and an ending Message-ID: <20030503004835.E542D299BE@xmxpita.excite.com> All your Business Week card says is that art dealers knew where artifacts were, and were prepared to lift them out when the chaos allowed for looting. I submit that knowing where artifacts are is the JOB of art dealers, while anyone with half a brain would know that there would be chaos after a bombing campaign. The entirity of your argument is based on bad evidence by (mostly) biased sources, over-tagging your cards, and drawing non sequitor conclusions. You falsely assume I have a burden of proof when all I've asked for is a good case proving your point and addressing the issue of impacts. If this is uncaring, all I can say is that what I feel about a situation can only be based on what I know - and if something can't be proven and explained, I can hardly claim to know it. I will no longer continue this discussion with you over edebate. I think that name-calling and cursing in a public forum, particularly one dedicated to an activity as noble as the one we both share, is disrespectful and a disgrace to the activity. I apologise to you (Jack) and to the community for my part in that. Since this thread has gone beyond the bounds of civility, the only thing to do is stop it. Yours in Debate, Chad Henson We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 2 20:24:37 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:24:37 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] korcok Message-ID: oh korcok, korcok, korcok, again showing his crass ignorance on the history of the iraq conflict. there were hundreds of 'solvency advocates' who've been calling for the support of iraqi opposition groups for over a decade - it was wolfowitz and pearl who were arguing for twenty years that the usa must stop proping up client states and use all available tools to unseat dictators. the question is, how is this done?, and there were heated debates both within the administration, in conservative think-tanks, and even among intelligent people as well. did you just start reading newspapers, korcok? where have you been for the last fifteen years? the past four administrations have been either cozying up to saddam or refusing to fund/train/arm the opposition forces which would remove him from power. early in 2001 there were like nine prominent congress-persons (i remember john mccain and joe lieberman and i think henry hype) calling for more assistance to the opposition, directly criticizing the past and present administrations for trying to turn the opposition into 'armchair insurgents' by continually funding conferences but never giving them what they really need, full-fledged support. pre-9/11 this bush administration was doing the exact same thing, neglecting to provide combat training, lethal aid, or any commitment whatsoever of direct military help (they even eliminated the office for 'coordinator for the transition in iraq' that (i believe) clinton set up). that's how much they care(d) about iraqi liberation. this is why a situation was CREATED where only an invasion/occupation would've worked in an immediate time-frame (the urgency of which was also created by the administration), BUT don't stop reading there, because it STILL wouldn't have taken that long to make this solution a plausible reality if a president was truly dedicated to it at anytime in the past two decades. you've got to see the entire imperial plan here in all its brillance and brutality, and this requires having an attention span longer than one week: first you bomb the crap out of the iraqi people and hussien's military, so as to scare them shitless and degrade their capacity to repel invasion, second you starve them for ten years while making sure that no opposition force is strong enough to overthrow saddam, and then you create a pretext centered around violations of international law, sending so many troops into the region that there's absolutely no turning back. this is how imperialism works: you eliminate all the alternatives and then claim that only you can provide an alternative. and i know i've been parcing out my criticisms, but really they're all connected: the fact that populated areas were bombarded is directly linked to the insufficient number of ground troops which is directly linked to the security failure of looting hospitals and museums which is directly linked to the unilateral nature of the post-conflict occupation, and it is the iraqi people who suffer ... not that you give one flying fuck about them. you're as fake as ari fleisher, and not as skilled at deflecting criticism, korcok, so if you really believe all the bullshit you're thowing at me, then perhaps you should just leave the propaganda to the professionals, and shut up. .k p.s. saddam hussien and his inner circle should be tried for war crimes, and if the reports about high-level ba'ath party members being granted leave are true, then this is yet another indication that this was not a war fought with any moral purpose whatsoever, but yet another neo-colonial intervention in a long list of them since the usa's colonization of native american territories, mexico, the phillipenes, cuba, and on and on and on and on. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 2 20:34:00 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:34:00 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Debate Criticism (part 1 of 3): On Foucault, Genealogy, and Skooling. Message-ID: ___(all asterik-emphasis mine.) "[On debate teams and at debate institutes,] [l]ife was partitioned, therefore, according to an absolutely strict time-table, under constant supervision; each moment of the day was devoted to a particular type of activity, and brought with it its own obligations and prohibitions[.] ... The[se] prison[s], though an administrative apparatus, will at the same time be *a machine for altering minds*. On first entering the prison, the prisoner will be read the regulations[.] ... ['The inspectors'] then *make ['the prisoner'] promise* to their duty gladly, to behave decently[.] ... As for the instruments used, these are ... forms of coercion, schemata of constraint, applied and repeated. Exercises ... time-tables, compulsory movements, regular activities, ... work in common, ... application, respect, good habits. And, ultimately, what one is trying to restore in this technique of correction is ... the *obedient subject*, the individual subjected to habits, rules, orders, an authority that is exercised continually around them and upon them, and which they must allow to function *automatically in* them. ... Secrecy is imperative, and so too is autonomy, at least in relation to this technique of punishment: it must have its own functioning, its own, rules, its own techniques, its own knowledge; it must fix its own norms, decide its own results. ... [A] power to punish exercised *in the shadows*, ... a meticulous assumption of responsibility {or liability} for the body and the time of the convict, a regulation of their movements and behavior by a system of authority and knowledge[,] ... an autonomous administration of th[e] power [to punish] that is isolated both from the social body and from the judicial power in the strict sense." [Discipline & Punish, p124, 125, 128, 129, 130.] This is why the skool models of 'team' and 'institute' form enclosed and protected spaces of displinary monotony. This is why each tournament-competitor is sectioned off, assessed and judged, ranked and tabulated, dropped or advanced. This is why debate operates as an isolated learning machine for supervising, measuring, and rewarding students. This is why the instructed (and their parents) must sign contracts promising to be on their bestest behavior. This is why petty curfews and/or restrictions on leaving designated areas are strictly enforced. This why debate bureacracies hide from public scrutiny, why they're embarrased about their disciplinary records and why they levy punishments in relative secrecy with virtually no legal accountability (and with a hyper-paraniod fear of lawsuits). "And, although the universal juridicism of modern society seems to fix limits on the exercise of power, its universally widespread panopticism enables it to operate, on the *underside of the law*, a machinery that is both immense and minute, which supports, reinforces, multiples the asymmetry of power and undermines the limits that are traced around the law. The minute disciplines, the *panopticisms of every day*[,] ... the importance that has been given for so long to ... those *apparently insignificant tricks* that it has invented, and even to those 'sciences' that give it a respectable face[.]" [p223] Forensics is such a 'science' - it is not a matter of subjective educational philosophies between a diverse number of coaches or principals, but a matter of mainstream pedagogical practice, the concrete arrangements of buildings, rooms, furniture, files, and institutional organizations: novices separated from varsities, the merit of the slightest gestures and tasks measured according to their efficiency, every lenciency calculated, every performance rated, repetitive curriculums drawn up, ritual exercises imposed, detailed mechanisms of control used to quarantine and to supervise young people, the famalial and correctional model used to mold the young with an ideal of productivity, to punish and to normalize them while maintaining and eliciting smiles. "Place the bodies in a little world of signals to each of which is attached a single, obligatory response: it is a technique of training, of *dressage*, that ... the disciplined soldier 'begins to obey whatever he is ordered to do; his obedience is prompt and blind; an appearance of indocility, the least delay would be a crime.'" [p166] 'Cut the cards', 'get the tubs', 'get to your round on time', 'flow the speech', 'spread faster', 'speak slower', 'shake your opponent's hand', 'assign speaker-points here and turn the ballot in there', 'add up the results', 'subtract the losers', 'come up and accept your award', 'applaud', 'dont' smoke', 'don't drink', 'don't be rowdy', 'dress nicely', 'don't leave campus', 'be here by 8', 'no teacher-student fraternizing allowed', 'stop that', 'listen', 'behave', 'or else ...' - automatic docility&utility ... [p228] "Is it suprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons?" Or is it surprising that teachers resemble cops, bosses, military officers, shrinks, which all resemble teachers? So what to do? Perhaps Foucault's investigations and interventions can serve as a good example (specifically his work with the GIP): provoke debate professionals to protest the power structures in which they are implicated, aim at specific administrative targets, name the people in charge, refuse to tolerate reformism, publicize what happens to students and teachers as it happens and in their own words, form loose coalitions for watch-dogging and mutiny, write press releases, create outrages, and so forth. bottom-line: make the price of controlling students and teachers higher than the potential liability-costs, prevent coercion from being exercised ... 'You may consider that no part of the Empire is without surveillance.' And so to is no part of the Empire without local resistance. .k ___ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 2 20:34:57 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:34:57 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Debate Criticism (Part 2 of 3): On Deleuze&Guattari, Schizoanalysis, and Cards. Message-ID: ___(all asterik-emphasis mine.) "*People are co-opted, not works*, which will always come to *awake a sleeping youth*, and which never cease extending their flame. As for ideology, it is the most confused notion because it keeps us from seizing the relationship of the literary machine with a field of production, and the moment when the emitted sign breaks through this 'form of the content' that was attempting to maintain the sign without the order of the signifier. ... [A]n author is great because they cannot prevent themelf from tracing flows and causing them to circulate, flows that split asunder the catholic and despotic signified of their work, and that necessarily *nourish a revolutionary machine on the horizon*. That is what style is, or rather the absence of style - asyntactic, agrammatical: the moment when language is *no longer defined by what is says*, even less by what makes it a signifying thing, but by *what causes it to move, to flow, to explode* - desire. For literature is like schizophrenia: *a process and not a goal*, a production and *not an expression*. Here again, oedipalization is one of the most important factors in *the reduction of literature to an object of consumption* conforming to the established order, and *incapable of causing anyone harm*. It is not a question here of the personal oedipalization of the author and their readers, but of the Oedipal form to which one attempts to enslave the work itself, to make of it this minor expressive activity that secretes ideology according to the dominant codes." [Anti-Oedipus. p133.] This explains why debaters are always asking what a card 'means' - its a way to avoid being deeply affected by it, to prevent any engagement with the work itself; the 'content'-based question always being: 'What is the minor expressive activity that can underwrite our pre-arranged ideological position?' And this is why debate literature is not a field of production, not something one allows to disrupt one's conscience or struggle with in the real-world, but a field of 'evidence', something that entails neurotically obsessing over the technicalities of what the card can prove to a judge. This is why card-cutters and handbook publishers package&commodify tubs full of this blank ammunition ... 'Don't think about the connection between Deleuze&Guattari's works and the way you're taught to look at literature; just cut the cards and link all affirmative cases with your kritik-chic position' - 'Don't use the tools Foucault gives you against skool authorities; just freeze-dry his work into anti-statist ideology, abstractified from any reality except winning debate rounds' - 'Be expressive/performative' - "the reduction of literature to an object of consumption ... incapable of causing anyone harm". ... Deleuze&Guattari suggest something different [p134-135.] : "[A]ll writing is so much pig shit - that is to say, any literature that takes itself as an end or sets ends for itself, instead of being a process that [in Artaud's words] 'ploughs the crap of being and its language,' transports the weak, the aphasiacs, the illiterate. ... Every writer is a sellout. The only literature is that which places *an explosive device in its package*, fabricating a counterfeit currency, causing the superego and its form of expression to explode, as well as the market value of its form of content. ... Very few accomplish what Laing calls the breakthrough ... 'quite ordinary people,' nevertheless. But the majority draw near the wall and back away horrified. Better to fall back under the law of the signifier[.]" There's lots of missions here for those few who choose to accept them: refuse to cut/read cards, steal cards from the rich skools and give to the poor via internet piracy, fabricate/plagarize cards, disseminate anti-debate cards, etc. ... [p137] "What is at stake is not merely art or literature. For either the artistic machine, the analytical machine, and the revolutionary machine will remain in extrinsic relationships that make them function in the deadening framework of the system of social and psychic repression, or they will become parts and cogs of one another in the flow that feeds one and the same desiring-machine, so many *local fires* patiently kindled for a *generalized explosion*[.]" And in contrast to all those selling you shit you don't need, remember ... 'To sing doesn't cost you a penny.' .k ___ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 2 20:37:57 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 20:37:57 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Debate Criticism (part 3 of 3): On Nietzsche, Agonism, and Competitive Success. Message-ID: ___ Nietzsche loved the heat of competition. He writes that what saved Greek civilization from wars of anniliation were sports, various fights which are contests (once again, all asterik-emphasis mine) : "*Every talent must unfold itself in fighting*: that is the command of Hellenic popular pedagogy, whereas modern educators dread nothing more than the unleashing of so-called ambition. ... And just as the youths were educated through contests, their educators were also engaged in contests with each other. The great musical masters, Pindar and Simonides, stood side by side, mistrustful and jealous; in the spirit of contest, the sophist, the advanced teacher of antiquity, meets another sophist; even the most universal type of instruction, through the drama, was meted out to the people only in the form of a tremendous wrestling among the great musical and dramatic artists. How wonderful! 'Even the artist hates the artist.' Whereas modern man fears nothing in an artist more than the emotion of any personal fight, the Greek knows the artist only as *engaged in a personal fight*. Precisely where modern man senses the weakness of a work of art, the Hellene seeks the source of its greatest strength. What, for example, is of special artistic significance in Plato's dialogues is for the most part the result of a contest with the art of orators, the sophists, and the dramatists of his time, invented for the purpose of enabling him to say in the end: '... Only the contest made me a poet, a sophist, an orator.' ... [W]ithout envy, jealousy, and ambition in the contest, the Hellenic city, like the Hellenic individual, degenerates. They become evil and cruel; they become vengeful and godless; in short, they become 'pre-Homeric.'" [Kaufmann's Nietzsche Reader. p37-38,39.] One can trace back so much of Lyotard's and Baudrillard's interesting game theories {see first two quotes here, www.ndtceda.com/archives/200206/0250.html} to the above work, 'Homer's Contest'. And in this context, Nietzsche reflects on the original meaning of *ostracism* [p36.] ... "as it is pronounced by the Ephesians when they banished Hermodorus: 'Among us, no one shall be the best; but if someone is, then let him be elsewhere and among others.' Why should no one be the best? Because then the contest would come to an end[.]" Imagine a debate community where the winners of the tournamnet were automatically disqualified from further competition, where only those with losing records in prelims could advance, where no ballot went to 'the best' debater - instead of ostracizing the losers in the interests of pyramidal hierarchy, the winners would be ostracized for the good of equal competition. In his Notes (1873), Nietzsche writes [p39] the "Deification of success is truly commensurate with human meanness. Whoever has closely studied *even a single success* knows what factors (stupidity, wickedness, laziness, etc.) have always helped - and not as the weakest factors either. **It is mad that success is supposed to be worth more than the beautiful possibility which was still there immediately before**." This 'beautiful possibility' is the intrinsically-valauble experience of free play, in this case, argumentative war. How many thousands of dollars are wasted on dinky trophies, and how many hundreds of long-hours are wasted on boring awards ceremonies? Debaters are constantly reminded of the 'incentives' of competition - but what if the competition itself is incentive enough? 'One has renounced the great life when one renounces war.' .k ___ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Twocute4u63 Sat May 3 11:03:21 2003 From: Twocute4u63 (Twocute4u63 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:03:21 EDT Subject: [eDebate] looking for ADI roommate! Message-ID: <54.106bcd69.2be54249@aol.com> Hey...my name is Mandy Trood, and I debated for Johnson County Community College in Kansas last semester, and am transfering to debate at the University of Central OK this summer. I am going to ADI, and was filling out the form deal, and I don't know anyone who is going, but I figured I would post and see if anyone was else was looking for a roommate. I like to have fun, and am ready to have a good time at camp. Write me back if your interested. Thanks, Mandy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030503/6297a164/attachment.htm From mmk_savant Sat May 3 12:29:35 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:29:35 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: step 1: counterplan text (Sanchez now has one, more or less. it only took until war's end for him to state it. sorta like after the 2ar "oh wait! i know! we could...") step 2: counterplan advocate and solvency/net benefit EVIDENCE (Sanchez wrote something less entertaining than "you ignorant slut! solvency evidence was written by everyone all the time in all the newspapers! everyone knows that, silly!" well, at this rate, i think i'll convince that resident skaalur to present evidence sometime during Gulf War 3 (coming to a theater of war near you in Spring 2006)) so... Sanchez is on step 2 of engaging the US liberation of Iraq in debate. as frikkin pitiful as that is, it is STILL further along than rach, newnam, stroube, or any other of the arm-chair kritikz. only 10 1/2 steps to go, Sanchez! here is the linexline since i wouldn't wanna be accused by some assjack of being weak on it. before i group the Sanchez slop, remember, that the counterplan is just a DIFFERENT way to do US military liberation of Iraq. 1. Sanchez has NO EVIDENCE not 1 card that training and arming and having US air support for a Kurdish military liberation of Northern Iraq and/or invasion of Baghdad would have succeeded in creating an independent Kurdish State, much less REMOVED Saddam and Sons from power. furthermore, not 1 card that such would have resulted in FEWER casualties than actually occurred in Tommy Franks' Shock and Awe, a monumentally successful campaign. that means all the rest below is unnecessary pre-emption. but since i am bored this morning... one more "reality check" comment for Sanchez: you and i both know why you aren't presenting evidence. you aren't presenting evidence because only Dr. Ahmad Chalabi, yes THE Chalabi thought that arming, training, and providing air support for the Kurds would have had a chance of succeeding. you read his comments at some point and were convinced enough to present your counterplan. much to your chagrin, you later found out that people like stroube and 60 Minutes had problems with Chalabi. so now you've GOT NO EVIDENCE because you refuse to endorse Chalabi. here, Kevin, let me post the card you read a while back and won't post now before i crush it. i have underlined that all-important "solvency" claim for you. from the PBS Frontline "The Survival of Saddam" 1999 interview of Dr. Ahmad Chalabi found at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/chalabi.html : "Because we made a challenge to Saddam, and they thought they're going to face a Bay of Pigs situation where Saddam would massacre us. And of course that didn't happened, because we managed to knock out two of Saddam's divisions, and we had over a thousand officers and men who defected over to our side. We took every battalion of every brigade of their 38th Division. Later, senior officers said the whole Fifth Corps was in total disarray as a result of our effort. In the next year, Saddam's tanks did come. After 18 months, and seven meetings chaired by the U.S. to solve the Kurdish problem--where we had a peace plan, which depended on U.S. commitment to solve the Kurdish problem--the commitment never came. It was not a matter of funds. There were plenty of funds generated in the area to take care of peacekeeping. But the commitment of the U.S. was reduced to giving a million dollars for peacekeeping. They wouldn't do it. It was beyond me to see why they didn't do it. It was such an easy thing to do. If that had been done, Saddam would not have invaded the north. If that had been done Saddam would have not thrown out UNSCOM. If that had been done, probably Saddam would not be in power. I really never understood why this did not happen. The people who are dealing with it from the State Department did a great job in bringing the sides together. It depended on the U.S. giving a million dollars. They said that the money was coming. I stayed there, and nothing doing, the money did not show up. They would only come back again when the fighting would restart and the tensions rise again. We had brought the Kurds together. It took four years and the efforts of the Secretary of State to bring them back together again. I never understood, until this day, why the United States government refused to provide a million dollars and a commitment to assist in this process to solve the Kurdish dispute." Sanchez won't present that card as solvency. the problem is he has NOTHING else. come on Kevin, defend Chalabi. it's either that or take the BIG L. 2. even the leftleftleft admits no regime change without US military liberation. the apparently mind-reading up-and-coming editor of the leftleft Middle East Review, Chris Toensing wrote after taking a couple random pot-shots in January 2003 for Foreign Policy in Focus, a Think Tank Without Walls (which means they have lots of raccoons wandering through their offices at night peeing on their furniture) at http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2003/0103opposition.htm . "In the hearts of the numerous Iraqi exiles who have kept their distance from the U.S.-backed opposition, apparent U.S. determination to achieve regime change in Iraq creates agonizing ambivalence. Few welcome the prospect of a U.S. invasion or have illusions about the imperial vision that animates the war party in the White House. Many worry about communal strife erupting during or after a war. Such concerns moved 23 independent Iraqi exiles to issue a statement repudiating the London conference's de facto support of U.S. war plans. But many also feel that the regime cannot be dislodged without external intervention, and that whatever government accedes to power after Saddam Hussein is gone cannot possibly be worse than his dictatorship. Even Hamid Majid Musa, secretary general of the Iraqi Communist Party, who opposes the war, says that "there is no way to get rid of Saddam Hussein without the Americans." did ya catch that last line? that had to make yer eyes bleed. in particular, the only solvency advocate that Sanchez could read (and won't) said post-the-1996-fiasco, NOT THE SANCHEZ COUNTERPLAN. Chalabi said it in the same Frontline interview referenced above ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/chalabi.html ): "If you got military support, where would you launch an attack from? >From inside Iraq. Which party would let you do that? We will not do it. The north is not the area to launch an attack against Saddam. The north will support an effort that starts somewhere else. We cannot call upon the Kurds to make a move against Saddam, knowing that there are three and a half million people living there will be under immediate attack by Saddam. We must not make the security of the Kurdish people into the enemy of operating against Saddam. No, we must launch the attack against Saddam from another part of Iraq, in the south and the west. Let us not get into details of military scenarios. There are possibilities." 3. empirical evidence Sanchez's Counterplan is Suck the US tried to do the KurdCoup once before and it was a disaster because Barzani's KDP screwed Talabani's PUK by feeding Saddam and Sons the plans and inviting Saddam's forces up north. Clinton and Friends, ever appeasers, tried to wish away the treachery and wooed Barzani again but refused to release any mo' money for the Kurds. I'm still roaming around the LeftWing BlameAmericaFirst clowns, quoting Sarah Graham-Brown and Chris Toensing's essay "Why Another War? A Backgrounder on the Iraq Crisis" from December 2002 published by the leftleft Middle East Research and Information Project http://www.merip.org/iraq_backgrounder_102202/iraq_background2_merip.pdf p.11 "The Kurds - the part of the INC with forces and a base within Iraq - were engaged in internecine warfare fromthe end of 1993 until 1997. A CIA-backed effort to use northern Iraq as a base for an assault on the regime in 1995-1996 ended in catastrophe when Washington aborted an INC challenge to Iraqi forces along the de-facto border and a planned coup in Baghdad failed. At the invitation of one Kurdish faction, the Kurdish Democratic Party, the Iraqi army moved into Erbil within the no-fly zone soon thereafter, killing many INC cadres and military defectors, and helping the KDP to defeat its rivals, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. This episode reinforced the message of the 1991 uprisings, which still resonates among those seeking to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime, that the US is not a reliable ally. Pressure from the INC's Republican allies in Congress pushed Clinton to sign the Iraq Liberation Act in late 1998, which appeared to signal more active support for the opposition and made regime change official US policy. But the State Department continued to have little trust in the effectiveness of the INC, and only $8 million of the $97 million allotted by the bill was disbursed by the time Clinton left office." and a less leftleft, more contemporary to the events Reuters report of October 17, 1996 explains that Barzani of the KDP invited Saddam to help him fight the Iran-backed PUK forces, which kicked in the knee-jerk cowardice of the Clinton Administration to flee like a Frenchman confronted by a loud "boo!( http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurdistanobserve/Newso17.htm ) "Fighting which erupted between the two groups in August has seriously weakened the U.S. position in northern Iraq, forcing the evacuation of U.S. aid, military and intelligence operations and threatening to draw in Iraq and Iran. The KDP invited in regular Iraqi forces to help it capture the key city of Arbil at the end of August. The KDP took control of most of the region, but a recent PUK counter-offensive has recaptured much of the territory." and after the 1996 debacle, nothing much changed which is why there wasn't another attempt at backing the Kurds. James Risen and Barbara Crossette commented in the New York Times article "Even U.S. Sees Iraq Opposition as Faint Hope" of November 19, 1998: "Despite the new American interest, many American officials have grown wary of investing too much time or resources into groups that often seem more intent on fighting each other than toppling Hussein. Since the end of the Persian Gulf War, Hussein has exploited their differences and managed to subvert them, rather than the other way around. American options have been so limited that the Central Intelligence Agency has been secretly funding one group that agency officials know has been betrayed by Iraqi agents, U.S. officials said. The Iraqi National Accord, a group made up of former military officers and other defectors from the Bagdhad regime, is still receiving C.I.A. backing more than two years after Iraq revealed that it knew all about the I.N.A.'s covert efforts to subvert Hussein's rule. In June, 1996, Iraq rounded up and executed about 100 army officers and others suspected of involvement with the group, making it clear that he had agents inside the group. Wednesday, United States officials say they strongly suspect that the I.N.A., with offices in Amman, Jordan and London, is still riddled with double agents." 4. and the TURN of course: all the moral imperatives that Sanchez runs are net benefits for the PLAN. because the US won and ACTUALLY kicked Saddam and Sons and the Baath Party out of power and will expand on the previous independence achieved for the Kurds with a relatively autonomous Kurdish State within a federal Iraq. you know, the 30 million Kurds of the world, the largest ethnic group on the planet without a state, will finally get one. the counterplan would have had, at best, some miniscule chance of achieving a fraction of that goodness at the cost of many more casualties. this is a link to the Kurdish Media story about Jay Garner's meeting with Barzani and Talabani last week. those damn capitalists at Kurdish Media won't let me cut and past the text because they set the browser to pop up a copyright notice instead. made me smile. here is the link: http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=3741 5. and the whole "CRISIS WAS CREATED!!!!" by the US crap is more Sanchez paranoid garbage yes, Kevin, the GLOBAL OVERLORDS, a division of Savant Enterprises, set the whole war up. my kids engineered events so that a US invasion was the only course of action that appeared rational to US policy makers like George W. Bush. but the worst is that we ALSO CREATED your stupid answers, deftly maneuvering you to write embarrassing slop to discredit the Left in the eyes of the American electorate in order to re-elect W so that we could get our hands on those ancient artifacts from Baghdad's museums. bwahahaha... the alternative theory is that you are just a dumbass. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030503/dab658d2/attachment.html From oguevara Sat May 3 14:19:38 2003 From: oguevara (Omar G Guevara) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:19:38 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark Message-ID: Well, I think Jack is on the money here: Clark needs to be part of the ticket, maybe even at the top. His televised-arm-chair analysis on CNN went over well: he sounded competent without being too critical of the Bush Adm (not my ideal position but compromise will be essential in 2004). I really like Dean alot, His stance of gay and lesbian issues is brave and just.. But Stroube is right, no NE liberal is going to produce a big ticket victory. I wish it were different, but that plausible scenario died with Bobby. Perhaps Dean could be persuaded to take a cabinet position, maybe HHS? Graham. Maybe. But can he even deliver Florida? If Dean is unknown to the vaergae American household, I suspect Graham may not be much better. So my pick is Edwards/Clark. Again, I am contemplating who should be at the top of the ticket (I am naturally averse to putting x-generals in charge of the Casa Rosada, but that tactical concession may be required). Last three democratic victories for the white house were southerns (Clinton, Carter, LBJ). Might as well be realistic rather than greedy, OG PS? What about the Nader wild card? Or a Buchanan one (the "America-first" camp of the Republican party is getting upset with Bush's internationalism and nation-building). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030503/e83e0ed5/attachment.htm From let_the_american_empire_burn Sat May 3 14:50:33 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:50:33 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: i'm not really sure if you want people to take you seriously, with all the debate terminology you use, but since you're stuck on it, i'll try to respond with language you can understand. up top note that i've been calling for reliable support to the opposition forces since before the war began, and what i'm exactly not suggesting is that toppling Saddam Hussien would've been possible without American military assistance (so i agree with Hamid Majid Musa of the Iraqi Communist Party that "there is no way to get rid of Saddam Hussein without the Americans")- the USA has a special ethical obligation to clean up messes it helped to make, as Christopher Hitchens has argued so eloquently. again to use your lingo, any net benefits of plan are captured by the counter-plan - all the evidence you read against the counter-plan assume either no outside assistance or a solely Kurdish-led attack on Baghdad, and all your diaster scenarios are emprically disproven by what you refer to as the overwhelming success of 'shock and awe'. what i've been arguing for a while now is that the USA military should give as much support as is needed to the opposition - that's what being a reliable ally means, and that is precisely what four administrations have failed to do for the Iraqi people for the last two decades. the Kurdish role in such a plan would be to hunker down and expel any invaders from their territory, not primarily to topple the regime (though i'm sure they could spare some troops, they should never have been asked to liberate a country that was not their own) - that's what independence means. the main thrust, as happened in this war, would come from the south and the west, but if the already existent democratic shi'a groups were armed, trained, and ready to fight alongside coalition troops, then this wouldn't have created any quagmires (and you haven't provided any all-important 'EVIDENCE' that it would've) but it would mitigate many problems the campaign had, namely, the occupation being a higher priority than the genuine liberation/welfare of Iraqis. ... (the only gamble here is one of self-determination - the USA administrations have been incredibly weary of 'creating another Iran', even though all evidence suggests that this would not occur, and this has been the reason they gave little to no support to these groups, and also why Korcok's post concentrates on the Kurds (and a straw-person i never made).) ... there would've been more boots on the ground to make ariel bombardment of populated areas unnecessary as well as ensure that people didn't loot hospitals (meaning less innocent civilian deaths). i don't know on earth i'd need evidence to demonstrate such obvious facts. tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers were killed, as well as thousands of civilian by-standers, and more are being killed as we speak since it is the policy of the military to shoot entire groups of protesters when fired upon by a few individuals - can you really tell me with a straight face that these horrors couldn't have been minimized if the Iraqis thought from the first that they were liberating their own country with help from the Americans, instead of the Americans invading and occupying Iraq? i think you know you're trying to mischaracterize my position so that you have evidenciary responses - there's no Chalabi conspiracy on my part, and it isn't either him or the USA (idiot), but he does make a point that i didn't hear you respond to: "If that had been done [speaking of a USA committment to support the opposition], Saddam would not have invaded the north. If that had been done Saddam would have not thrown out UNSCOM. If that had been done, probably Saddam would not be in power. I really never understood why this did not happen." why? because of 'regional stability', that's why. it was in the USA interests to watch Hussien destroy and torture the opposition so that only the invasion/occupation solution could be left standing. is it any wonder that the CIA continued to fund the Iraqi National Accord? the officials who Korcok claims care so much for the Iraqi people are the same ones that didn't lift a finger to help the Kurds as they were continually massacred by the Hussien regime. what is scary is that there might just be a 'Gulf War 3 ... coming to a theater of war near you in Spring 2006' if this occupation can't quickly turn into a representative government. korcok: "you know, the 30 million Kurds of the world, the largest ethnic group on the planet without a state, will finally get one." uh, how does that fit into the 'one Iraq'-policy the administration is peddling? have you been reading what you're defending? any Kurdish rebels who now fight for their own state will be considered traitors and shot by the USA forces. they had relative autonomy under the no-fly-zones and there's only the risk that they'll lose what little they had, when there's no reason they shouldn't have their own homeland like the Israelis. this isn't a debate round, korcok, real lives have been needlessly killed by the policies of your government, and there isn't anything you're saying that i can't learn from press briefings by the defense establishment. say what you will of my supposedly evidence-less advocacies, but i try to think for myself and reach my own conclusions. do you have any critical circuits in your brain? is there any questions you have for your administration? or are you just another spin-doctor mindlessly repeating whatever they tell you to repeat? cuz we have enough of them on both the right and the left. .k _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Sat May 3 14:51:45 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:51:45 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: i'm not really sure if you want people to take you seriously, with all the debate terminology you use, but since you're stuck on it, i'll try to respond with language you can understand. up top note that i've been calling for reliable support to the opposition forces since before the war began, and what i'm exactly not suggesting is that toppling Saddam Hussien would've been possible without American military assistance (so i agree with Hamid Majid Musa of the Iraqi Communist Party that "there is no way to get rid of Saddam Hussein without the Americans")- the USA has a special ethical obligation to clean up messes it helped to make, as Christopher Hitchens has argued so eloquently. again to use your lingo, any net benefits of plan are captured by the counter-plan - all the evidence you read against the counter-plan assume either no outside assistance or a solely Kurdish-led attack on Baghdad, and all your diaster scenarios are emprically disproven by what you refer to as the overwhelming success of 'shock and awe'. what i've been arguing for a while now is that the USA military should give as much support as is needed to the opposition - that's what being a reliable ally means, and that is precisely what four administrations have failed to do for the Iraqi people for the last two decades. the Kurdish role in such a plan would be to hunker down and expel any invaders from their territory, not primarily to topple the regime (though i'm sure they could spare some troops, they should never have been asked to liberate a country that was not their own) - that's what independence means. the main thrust, as happened in this war, would come from the south and the west, but if the already existent democratic shi'a groups were armed, trained, and ready to fight alongside coalition troops, then this wouldn't have created any quagmires (and you haven't provided any all-important 'EVIDENCE' that it would've) but it would mitigate many problems the campaign had, namely, the occupation being a higher priority than the genuine liberation/welfare of Iraqis. ... (the only gamble here is one of self-determination - the USA administrations have been incredibly weary of 'creating another Iran', even though all evidence suggests that this would not occur, and this has been the reason they gave little to no support to these groups, and also why Korcok's post concentrates on the Kurds (and a straw-person i never made).) ... there would've been more boots on the ground to make ariel bombardment of populated areas unnecessary as well as ensure that people didn't loot hospitals (meaning less innocent civilian deaths). i don't know on earth i'd need evidence to demonstrate such obvious facts. tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers were killed, as well as thousands of civilian by-standers, and more are being killed as we speak since it is the policy of the military to shoot entire groups of protesters when fired upon by a few individuals - can you really tell me with a straight face that these horrors couldn't have been minimized if the Iraqis thought from the first that they were liberating their own country with help from the Americans, instead of the Americans invading and occupying Iraq? i think you know you're trying to mischaracterize my position so that you have evidenciary responses - there's no Chalabi conspiracy on my part, and it isn't either him or the USA (idiot), but he does make a point that i didn't hear you respond to: "If that had been done [speaking of a USA committment to support the opposition], Saddam would not have invaded the north. If that had been done Saddam would have not thrown out UNSCOM. If that had been done, probably Saddam would not be in power. I really never understood why this did not happen." why? because of 'regional stability', that's why. it was in the USA interests to watch Hussien destroy and torture the opposition so that only the invasion/occupation solution could be left standing. is it any wonder that the CIA continued to fund the Iraqi National Accord? the officials who Korcok claims care so much for the Iraqi people are the same ones that didn't lift a finger to help the Kurds as they were continually massacred by the Hussien regime. what is scary is that there might just be a 'Gulf War 3 ... coming to a theater of war near you in Spring 2006' if this occupation can't quickly turn into a representative government. korcok: "you know, the 30 million Kurds of the world, the largest ethnic group on the planet without a state, will finally get one." uh, how does that fit into the 'one Iraq'-policy the administration is peddling? have you been reading what you're defending? any Kurdish rebels who now fight for their own state will be considered traitors and shot by the USA forces. they had relative autonomy under the no-fly-zones and there's only the risk that they'll lose what little they had, when there's no reason they shouldn't have their own homeland like the Israelis. this isn't a debate round, korcok, real lives have been needlessly killed by the policies of your government, and there isn't anything you're saying that i can't learn from press briefings by the defense establishment. say what you will of my supposedly evidence-less advocacies, but i try to think for myself and reach my own conclusions. do you have any critical circuits in your brain? is there any questions you have for your administration? or are you just another spin-doctor mindlessly repeating whatever they tell you to repeat? cuz we have enough of them on both the right and the left. .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From let_the_american_empire_burn Sat May 3 15:22:36 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:22:36 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] draft wesley clark (my ideal ticket) Message-ID: i don't vote or anything, but purely from an entertainment perspective, i think the ticket should be as follows: on the Dems side: Al Sharpton, VP, and Ralph Nader, P on the Reps side: John McCain, VP, and Colin Powell, P wouldn't that be fucking something? but its probably gonna be Lieberman or Kerry and of course Bush and Cheney. watching molasses run is more exciting. .k _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mmk_savant Sat May 3 15:49:28 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:49:28 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez (2) Message-ID: okay, then. the right way to write what you just wrote is: "i, Kevin Sanchez, concede. my opposition to US military intervention in Iraq was stupid." what you actually wrote wasn't as obvious as the above, but most of us got your jist. thanks for playing, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030503/90078e57/attachment.html From jackattack7 Sat May 3 16:58:23 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:58:23 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] pope thinks 9-11 was an inside job Message-ID: the franklin graham card -- good friday sermons at the pentagon -- isn't that sweet? henson hurting bad and whining on his way out. the guy w only analytical presses and no take-outs tries to turn the debate into a moral issue because he got beat badly. the business week evidence says that the pieces were ordered in advance. only experts would know where they are so that when they were in the museums they could take the right pieces. duh. come on, your racism behind your "i don't care attitude" and inability to apologize are worse than any parody come your way. sorry, loser all around because you are a racist. this articles demonstrates a deep-seated racist ideology in the white house that would allow the museums and libraries to be destroyed in an effort to destroy the culture. http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_crime&Number=581880&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=1#Post581880 Bush's "Christian" Blood Cult Concerns Raised by the Vatican by WAYNE MADSEN George W. Bush proclaims himself a born-again Christian. However, Bush and fellow self-anointed neo-Christians like House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, John Ashcroft, and sports arena Book of Revelations carnival hawker Franklin Graham appear to wallow in a "Christian" blood lust cult when it comes to practicing the teachings of the founder of Christianity. This cultist form of Christianity, with its emphasis on death rather than life, is also worrying the leaders of mainstream Christian religions, particularly the Pope. One only has to check out Bush's record as Governor of Texas to see his own preference for death over life. During his tenure as Governor, Bush presided over a record setting 152 executions, including the 1998 execution of fellow born-again Christian Karla Faye Tucker, a convicted murderer who later led a prison ministry. Forty of Bush's executions were carried out in 2000, the year the Bush presidential campaign was spotlighting their candidate's strong law enforcement record. The Washington Post's Richard Cohen reported in October 2000 that one of the execution chamber's "tie-down team" members, Fred Allen, had to prepare so many people for lethal injections during 2000, he quit his job in disgust. Bush mocked Tucker's appeal for clemency. In an interview with Talk magazine, Bush imitated Tucker's appeal for him to spare her life - pursing his lips, squinting his eyes, and in a squeaky voice saying, "Please don't kill me." That went too far for former GOP presidential candidate Gary Bauer, himself an evangelical Christian. "I think it is nothing short of unbelievable that the governor of a major state running for president thought it was acceptable to mock a woman he decided to put to death," said Bauer. A former Texas Department of Public Safety officer, a devout Roman Catholic, told this reporter that evidence to the contrary, Bush was more than happy to ignore DNA data and documented cases of prosecutorial misconduct to send innocent people to the Huntsville, Texas lethal injection chamber. He said the number of executed mentally retarded, African Americans, and those who committed capital crimes as minors was proof that Bush was insensitive and a "phony Christian." When faced with similar problems in Illinois, Governor George Ryan, a Republican, commuted the death sentences of his state's death row inmates and released others after discovering they were wrongfully convicted. Yet the Republican Party is pillorying Ryan and John Ashcroft's Justice Department continues to investigate the former Governor for political malfeasance as if Bush and Ashcroft are without sin in such matters. Hypocrisy certainly rules in the Republican Party. Bush's blood lust has been extended across the globe. He has given the CIA authority to assassinate those deemed a threat to U.S. national interests. Bush has virtually suspended Executive Orders 11905 (Gerald Ford), 12306 (Jimmy Carter), and 12333 (Ronald Reagan) which prohibit the assassination of foreign leaders. Bush's determination to kill Saddam Hussein, his family, and his top leaders with precision-guided missiles and tactical nuclear weapon-like Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB) bombs is yet another indication of Bush's disregard for his Republican and Democratic predecessors. It now appears that in his zeal to kill Hussein, innocent civilian patrons of a Baghdad restaurant were killed by one of Bush's precision Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs). Like it or not, Saddam Hussein was recognized by over 100 nations as the leader of Iraq -- a member state of the United Nations. Hussein, like North Korea' Kim Jong Il, Syria's Bashir Assad, and Iran's Mohammed Khatami, are covered by Executive Order 12333, which the Bush mouthpieces claim is still in effect. Bush's "Christian" blood cult sees no other option than death for those who become his enemies. This doctrine is found no place in Christian theology. Bush has not once prayed for the innocent civilians who died as a result of the U.S. attack on Iraq. He constantly "embeds" himself with the military at Goebbels-like speech fests and makes constant references to God when he refers to America's "victory" in Iraq, as if God endorses his sordid killing spree. He makes no mention of the children, women, and old men killed by America's "precision-guided" missiles and bombs and trigger-happy U.S. troops. In fact, Bush revels in indiscriminate blood letting. Since he never experienced such killing in Southeast Asia, when he was AWOL from his Texas Air National Guard unit, Bush just does not seem to understand the horror of a parent watching one's children having their heads and limbs blown off in a sudden blast of shrapnel or children witnessing their parents burning to death with their own body fat nurturing the flames. Bush and his advisers, previously warned that Iraq's ancient artifacts and collection of historical documents and books were in danger of being looted or destroyed, instead, sat back while the Baghdad and Mosul museums and Baghdad Library were ransacked and destroyed. Cult leaders have historically attempted to destroy history in order to invent their own. The Soviets tried to obliterate Russia's Orthodox traditions, turning a number of churches into warehouses and animal barns. Cambodia's Pol Pot tried to wipe out Buddhism's famed Angkor Wat shrine in an attempt to stamp out his country's Buddhist history. In March 2001, while they were negotiating with the Bush administration on a natural gas pipeline, Afghanistan's Taliban blew up two massive 1600-year old Buddhas in Bamiyan. The Bush administration, itself run by fanatic religious cultists, barely made a fuss about the loss of the relics. It would not be the first time the cultists within the Bush administration ignored the pillaging of history's treasures. The ransacking of Iraq's historical treasures is explainable when one considers what the blood cult Christians really think about Islam. Franklin Graham, the heir to the empire built up by his anti-Semitic father, Billy Graham, has decided being anti-Muslim is far more financially rewarding than being anti-Jewish. Billy Graham, history notes from the Nixon tapes, complained about the Jewish stranglehold on the media and Jews being responsible for pornography. Franklin Graham continues to enjoy his father's unfettered and questionable access to the White House. But in the case of Bush, the younger Graham has a fanatic adherent. Graham has called Islam a "very evil and wicked" religion. He then announces he wants to go to Iraq. Graham obviously sees an opportunity to convert Muslims and unrepentant Eastern Christians, who owe their allegiance to Roman and Greek prelates, to his perverted form of blood cult Christianity. Graham says he is ready to send his Samaritan's Purse missionaries into Iraq to provide assistance. Muslims and mainstream Christians are wary that Graham wants to exchange food, water, and medicine for the baptism of Iraqis into his intolerant brand of Christianity. In the last Gulf War, Graham could not get away with his chicanery. The Desert Storm Commander, General Norman Schwarzkopf, stopped dead in the tracks Graham's plan to send 30,000 Arabic language Bibles to U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Today's Pentagon shows no such compunction to put a rein on Graham. It invited him to give a Good Friday sermon at the Pentagon to the consternation of the Defense Department's Muslim employees. To make matters worse, under Bush's "Faith Based Initiative," Graham's Samaritan's Purse stands to receive U.S. government funds for its proselytizing efforts in Iraq, something that should be an affront to every American taxpayer. Bush's self-proclaimed adherence to Christianity (during one of the presidential debates he said Jesus Christ was his favorite "philosopher") and his constant reference to a new international structure bypassing the United Nations system and long-standing international treaties are worrying the top leadership of the Roman Catholic Church. Well-informed sources close to the Vatican report that Pope John Paul II is growing increasingly concerned about Bush's ultimate intentions. The Pope has had experience with Bush's death fetish. Bush ignored the Pope's plea to spare the life of Karla Faye Tucker. To show that he was similarly ignorant of the world's mainstream religions, Bush also rejected an appeal to spare Tucker from the World Council of Churches - an organization that represents over 350 of the world's Protestant and Orthodox Churches. It did not matter that Bush's own Methodist Church and his parents' Episcopal Church are members of the World Council. Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs, and his constant references to "evil doers," in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations - the anti-Christ. People close to the Pope claim that amid these concerns, the Pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations. John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament. Before he became Pope, Karol Cardinal Wojtyla said, "We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel." The Pope, who grew up facing the evils of Hitler and Stalin, knows evil when he sees it. Although we can all endlessly argue over the Pope's effectiveness in curtailing abuses within his Church, his accomplishments external to Catholicism are impressive. According to journalists close to the Vatican, the Pope and his closest advisers are also concerned that the ultimate acts of evil - the September 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon - were known in advance by senior Bush administration officials. By permitting the attacks to take their course, there is a perception within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy that a coup d'etat was implemented, one that gave Bush and his leadership near-dictatorial powers to carry out their agenda. The Pope worked tirelessly to convince leaders of nations on the UN Security Council to oppose Bush's war resolution on Iraq. Vatican sources claim they had not seen the Pope more animated and determined since he fell ill to Parkinson's Disease. In the end, the Pope did convince the leaders of Mexico, Chile, Cameroon, and Guinea to oppose the U.S. resolution. If one were to believe in the Book of Revelations, as the Pope fervently does, he can seek solace in scoring a symbolic victory against the Bush administration. Whether Bush represents a dangerous right-wing ideologue who couples his political fanaticism with a neo-Christian blood cult (as I believe) or he is either the anti-Christ or heralds one, the Pope should know he has fought the good battle and has gained the respect and admiration of many non-Catholics around the world. Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and columnist. He wrote the introduction to Forbidden Truth. Madsen can be reached at: WMadsen777 at aol.com _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Sat May 3 16:59:27 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:59:27 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] clark has plenty of time Message-ID: http://www.dailykos.com/archives/002570.html _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From fharriso Sat May 3 17:39:22 2003 From: fharriso (Harrison, Frank) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:39:22 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ADA Annual Meeting Message-ID: <650F170108F10C4D9E2B08AFCEF92CE702C6A364@its-tarrant.trinity.local> Dear Colleague, Yesterday, I sent to all ADA members, by regular mail, copies of the proposal to amend the Constitution and the sixteen proposed amendments to the Standings Rules which I have received. If you have not received them by the middle of next week, please contact me and I will make sure a copy is FAXed to you. I look forward to seeing many of you in Annapolis. Frank Harrison ADA President From let_the_american_empire_burn Sat May 3 17:42:52 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:42:52 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez (2) Message-ID: Korcok, your every post indicates the gross disservice that debate gives so many of its participants; believe it or not, there are more than only two sides on an issue as complex as Iraqi liberation, and i'm not either a leftist pacifist or a right-wing hawk, as hard as that may be for you to grasp (or rebutt). yes, i support military intervention in Iraq to remove a brutal dicator from power, and have supported that since before this administration went on the war-path - this country gave military assistance to this man even after he invaded Iran and used chemical weapons against hundreds of thousands of people, and then this country launched bombs on Baghdad that may have killed tens of thousands of innocents unecessarily, and on top of that near a million civilians died thanks to the 'containment' backed by conservative 'realists', and so to me, yes, that means that Americans owe something to Iraqis. but no, i do not support the way the USA went about this campaign, for the reasons i've outlined and which you continue time and time again to mischaraterize and/or dodge: (a) bombing raids on populated areas, (b) insuffient ground forces due to no recruitment of existing opposition forces, (c) refusal to fight for an independent kurdistan, and (d) a unilateral occupation which has violated basic premises of self-determination and made Iraq less secure and less open to international humanitarian aid. i'm sorry if my position doesn't plunk into your binary categories, Korcok, but don't worry: i'm sure you can write a very scary theory-block against plan-inclusive counter-plans that would put the smack down on my position. ... it just won't bring back the child who got her head blown off thanks to your 'humanely targetted' bombs. .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mmk_savant Sat May 3 18:52:16 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:52:16 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper Message-ID: Cooper, finally, 2 weeks after the major fighting in the US liberation of Iraq ended, spelled out the alternative to the Bush Administration policy that he thinks should have been done instead. paraphrasing, Chris ( http://clown-forum.com/clown-links.htm ) now advocates the formation of Cooper's Troopers, a tightly-knit and international band of burly men trained in the arts of pursuit and handcuffery. Cooper's Troopers would wear sky-blue jumpsuits and helmets and carry out Chris's every command. Chris thinks that sending Cooper's Troopers after Saddam and Sons would have been better than what the Bush administration actually did. he also wrote some pablum nonsense like support democracy and increase support for international law, none of which he attempted to show would have done squat to remove Saddam and Sons. the way Cooper put the "direct action" part was: "The United States should establish and aquiesse to an international enforcement mechanism for international treaties against genocide, torture, and other various bad things. This enforcement mechanism should include an international S.W.A.T. team of highly-trained, and fully funded troops equipt with non-lethal weapons and urban pacification technology (you know...sonic, chems. in the water system, gas). International treaties on the development and use of CBW's should provide an exception for this team." well then. Cooper criticizes the Bush Administration's liberation of Iraq and his "creative BIG IDEA" is to send in a bunch of goons dressed like clowns ( http://www.scottsmind.com/evil_clown.html ) to dump tubs of acid ( http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/lsd09a.htm ) in the Tigris and then kidnap Saddam and Sons while 5 million Iraqis are tripping out to Belgium to stand trial or something. 1. Well the bad news is that though Krusty, Bozo, Blinko, Uncle Soapy, and Ronald McDonald ( http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_McDonald ) might get all the frikkin SWAT training and gear ( http://www.takemetoyourreaders.org/clown_camp.htm ), there isn't ONE damn reason to believe that they could have stolen into Baghdad to find, much less kidnap Saddam. as for Uday and that other one, the really really slippery son, fergetaboutit. this is what Mary Curtius staffwriter for the Boston Globe wrote about it on January 24, 2001 ( http://www.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/globe_stories/012491_hussein_target.htm): "The White House and the Pentagon have decided to refrain from targeting Saddam Hussein for attack because of the practical problem of finding him and not because of the executive order prohibiting assassination of foreign leaders, according to senior administration officials. The officials, who declined to be identified, dismissed the contention that the United States has been held back by the executive order, which has been in effect since the mid-1970s. They said Saddam Hussein's position during wartime as supreme commander of Iraq's military makes him a lawful target for assassination, whether by bombing mission or commando attack, but there is the problem of locating him. "The practical problem makes the philosophical problem nonexistent," said one administration official. "After all, in Panama, with several tens of thousands of soldiers on the ground, we had a hell of a time finding Noriega, and that was in one city." Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega, the Panamanian leader, escaped to the Vatican Embassy in Panama and eventually surrendered to US forces. A White House official, asked whether the assassination policy protected Saddam Hussein, said: "It's not a legal problem for us, it's a practical one. We just can't find the guy." Saddam Hussein, who has been seen publicly only rarely since the war began last week, is said to be hiding from US bombardment in a range of secure bunkers throughout Baghdad. One of the bunkers, according to a German newspaper, is a nuclear-proof facility, built with German technology, beneath the presidential palace. While not directly aiming at Saddam Hussein, US warplanes have struck at sites frequented by him in the past. According to official US accounts and unconfirmed reports, allied bombing attacks have hit Saddam Hussein's presidential palace and the Baath Party regional command headquarters in Baghdad, military targets in his home village of Tikrit and at least one of his many presidential retreats." and this is what Tom Raum of the Associated Press wrote about it on September 14, 2002: ( http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/091502/new_20020915002.shtml ) "That does not mean he will be easy to catch. An attempt in 1993 to capture Somalia warlord Mohammed Farrah Aidid ended with the deaths of 18 U.S. troops and hundreds of Somalis. In 1989, the United States sent 24,000 troops into Panama to oust Gen. Manuel Noriega. Even with a $1 million bounty on his head, it took 14 days to capture him. Panama then was a country of just 2.3 million people and included U.S. military bases. Iraq has a population of 20 million and a standing army of 400,000. Slobodan Milosevic, the former president of Yugoslavia, proved elusive in NATO's 78-day air war in 1999. Even though the United States offered a $5 million reward, he remained at large until his April 2001 arrest by Serbian police on war-crimes charges. In 1986, President Reagan ordered military jets to strike at Libya's president Moammar Gadhafi's compound and military headquarters in Tripoli. It was retaliation for the bombing of a night club in Germany frequented by U.S. servicemen. G.m.) of adhafi was uninjured and remains in power today. Efforts by the U.S. government in the 1960s to overthrow -- even assassinate -- Cuba's Fidel Castro were famously unsuccessful. Saddam emerged unscathed from devastating bombing of Baghdad in both the 1991 Gulf War and again in December 1998 during a four-day U.S.-British air bombardment. The first President Bush, who stopped the 1991 war short of overthrowing Saddam, wrote later that he actively considered going after him. ''None of us minded if he was killed in the course of an air attack. Yet it was extremely difficult to target Saddam, who was known to move frequently and under tight security,'' Bush wrote in a 1998 memoir. ''We had problems locating Noriega in Panama, a place we knew well. Saddam was far more elusive and better protected,'' he wrote. ''We later learned Saddam had been caught in one military convoy attacked by coalition aircraft, but escaped unharmed.'' and you know, the frikkin US shot 40 cruise missiles and 2 bunker busters on the man's frikkin house and maybe didn't get him and then 2 weeks later dropped 4 1-ton JDAMs on the restaurant he and his sons were eating in and maybe didn't get him. WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT COOPER'S TROOPERS HAVE A CHANCE OF CATCHING SADDAM AND SONS EVEN PEDALLING TOP SPEED ON THEIR LITTLE TRICYCLES? ESPECIALLY WEARING THOSE BIG FLOPPY CLOWN SHOES? 2. empirically FAILED. Joe Biden DID your dumb counterplan 5 years ago. the Senate passed it 93-0. unanimous. DIDN'T DO SQUAT. unless you have some kick-ass reason that Cooper's Troopers would be MUCH better than Biden's Brigadiers, shutupyou. from ( http://foreign.senate.gov/Democratic/press/98/980313.html ): "Sen. Joseph R. Biden, Jr., ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, today joined his Senate colleagues in supporting a resolution calling for the establishment of an international commission and criminal tribunal to investigate and prosecute Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials for war crimes and genocide. The Senate passed the indictment resolution by a vote of 93-0. Biden said, "Through his genocidal campaigns against the Kurds, the brutal treatment of Kuwaiti civilians, and the repeated use of chemical weapons, Saddam Hussein has earned his place as one of history's most cold-blooded dictators." "It is high time that the international community stop looking the other way when he commits these blatant crimes against humanity. We have to begin compiling the evidence of his atrocities and initiate criminal proceedings to deliver the punishment that he so richly deserves." The Resolution calls for the United Nations to set up a commission to record the criminal culpability of Saddam Hussein and to establish a criminal tribunal, similar to those created in Rwanda and Bosnia, to prosecute the charges. Biden acknowledged there are obstacles to bringing Saddam Hussein to justice in a court of law but noted that the Resolution would be an important statement of principle. "We should not underestimate the difficulty of physically delivering Saddam Hussein to a tribunal, but we cannot abandon the quest for justice. "The Kurds are not the only victims of Saddam's atrocities. Whenever international response to his crimes is weak, Saddam is emboldened. We cannot afford to keep our outrage to the realm of rhetoric any longer," Biden said. Since 1988, Saddam Hussein has launched numerous chemical weapons and military offensives against Kurdish settlements and has razed hundreds of "Marsh Arab" villages in southern Iraq. The offensives, marked by systematic killings and forcible relocations, have resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths. He has also used chemical weapons against and fired missiles at civilians in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain." 3. the French or the Russians would have prevented Cooper's Troopers from going in anyway. Cooper will answer that since there are no burly Frenchmen, that Cooper's Troopers wouldn't let them join. HELLLLLOOOOO!!!! can you say Marcel Marceu? ( http://www.marceau.org/ ). and that means NO GO for COOPER'S TROOPERS. Gary Younge and Jon Henley explained in The Guardian on Tuesday February 11, 2003 ( http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,893263,00.html ) "A cartoon in the same paper shows an ostrich with its head in the sand below the words: "The national bird of France." If such language is proving a headache for the diplomats, then spare a thought for the French translators, who have struggled for words to convey the full force of the venom. "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" - a phrase coined by Bart Simpson but made acceptable in official diplomatic channels around the globe by Jonah Goldberg, a columnist for the rightwing weekly National Review (according to Goldberg) - was finally rendered: " Primates capitulards et toujours en qu?te de fromages ". And the New York Post's "axis of weasel" lost much of its venom when translated as a limp " axe de faux jetons " (literally, "axis of devious characters")." ostrich ( http://www.jan.ne.jp/~kawabe/addo/img/ostrich_m.jpg ) weasel ( http://www.animalinyou.com/weasel.htm ) french cheese-eating surrender monkey ( http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-frenchsurrendermonkey.htm ) 4. PERM and TURN: send in Cooper's Troopers now to find and bring Saddam and Sons to justice. now that there is some chance that the counterplan can be made effective. 5. what the hell are you babbling about, Cooper? post at least 1 damn solvency card. just one semi-sane non-idiot that thinks your idea had any chance at all of actually WORKING to get rid of Saddam and Sons. otherwise, you got nothing. clown. thanks for laughing, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030503/e08a258e/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Sun May 4 00:23:41 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 05:23:41 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] US setback: cleric dead Message-ID: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3194.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jackattack7 Sun May 4 21:06:54 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 02:06:54 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] secret deal update Message-ID: http://www.american-reporter.com/2096W/1.html the article summarizes previous information that saddam made a deal w the russians to fold in the second week of the war and that the republican guard made a separate deal w rumsfeld that saved the top echelons for laying down arms. the new piece of information comes from the knight ridder service and is the first such internal republican guard confession of the secret deal. quote: "A recent story from the Knight Ridder news service contained an interview with Major Sallah Abdullah Mahdi al Jabouri, a 17-year Iraqi army veteran and a Republican Guard battalion commander. Even though U.S. airstrikes had killed one-third of his 4,000-man brigade, Jabouri said his men were prepared to defend Baghdad when he and his fellow field commanders received orders on April 8 to withdraw and return to their bases north of the city. When they arrived at their base, they were told go home. The next day, U.S. forces swept into central Baghdad unopposed. "We went to war expecting everybody was going to die; we imagined the worst," said Jabouri. "But to lose your country is bigger." unquote _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jackattack7 Sun May 4 21:28:05 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 02:28:05 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] perle's resignation Message-ID: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/27/214927.shtml "he may stay on in the capacity of an ordinary member" but that statement was back on march 28 when the story first hit the press. on april 2 on the world socialist web site, we find confirmation that he will stay on the board w "Perle is to remain as a member on the Defense Policy Board, an advisory panel to the Pentagon". http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/perl-a02.shtml _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mmk_savant Sun May 4 22:27:09 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:27:09 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube Message-ID: something special for the resident anti-semitic psychotic assmouth of edebate. Several cadets from the military academies asked a couple of months back who Jack Stroube was. i don't know if anyone backchannelled them an answer or if that answer was the right one. This is the inside-scoop, the straight-shit about Baghdad Jack. William S. Burroughs was there when Assjack was born and this is how he saw it: "Then it developed sort of teeth-like little raspy in- curving hooks and start eating. He thought this was cute at first and built an act around it, but the asshole would eat its way through his pants and start talking on the street, shouting out it wanted equal rights. It would get drunk, too, and have crying jags nobody loved it and it wanted to be kissed same as any other mouth. Finally it talked all the time day and night, you could hear him for blocks screaming at it to shut up, and beating it with his fist, and sticking candles up it, but nothing did any good and the asshole said to him: 'It's you who will shut up in the end. Not me. Because we don't need you around here any more. I can talk and eat AND shit.' and sure enough, two Tuesdays later, the asshole was in complete control of the entire body, the sphincter had swallowed the skull and cracked it in half, absorbing the gray matter into the small intestine. and Assjack kept talking and talking, pointless expulsions of rancid, poorly digested texts. talked until its cloaca began to bleed. and then it rested and thought. it thought silently for 2 weeks, just eating and shitting, eating and shitting, not talking. then it belch-farted a long, satisfied, pungent belch-fart of self-realization. Assjack had a plan. William S. Burroughs was there when Assjack came up with its big strategy and this is how he saw it: "To see how scrambling technique could work on a a mass scale, imagine that a news magazine like TIME got out a whole issue a week before publication and filled it with news based on predictions following a certain line, without attempting the impossible, giving our boys a boost in every story and the Commies as many defeats and casualties as possible, a whole new issue of TIME formed from slanted prediction of future news. Now imagine this scrambled out through the mass media. With minimal equipment you can do the same thing on a smaller scale. You need a scrambling device, TV, radio, two video cameras, a ham radio station and a simple photo studio with a few props and actors. For a start you scramble the news all together and spit it out every which way on ham radio and street recorders. You construct fake news broadcasts on video camera. For the pictures you can use mostly old footage. Mexico City will do for a riot in Saigon Chile you can use the Londonderry pictures. Nobody knows the difference. Fires, earthquakes, plane crashes can be moved around. for example, here is a plane crash in Toronto 108 dead. so move the picture of the Barcelona plane crash over to Toronto and Toronto to Barcelona. And you scramble your fabricated news in with actual news broadcasts. You have an advantage which your opposing player does not have. He must conceal his manipulations. You are under no such necessity. In fact you can advertise the fact that you are writing the news in advance and trying to make it happen by techniques which anybody can use. And that makes you NEWS. And TV personality as well, if you play it right. You want the widest possible circulation for your cut/up video tapes. Cut/up techniques could swamp the mass media with total illusion." and for the last few months Assjack has been scrambling the cuts, predicting the garble, trying to make it happen his way. remember, he strenuously opposed US military liberation of Iraq. he even bet $3,000 that the Bush Administration would be prevented from going into Iraq by the UN. during the 3 weeks of the war, Stroube creepily and gleefully posted every setback, each mistake, every US death on edebate, several times predicting imminent US defeat and retreat. if he hadn't chewed up his own brain, Assjack would have written, Abrams tanks rolling on the streets below, "There's not an American soldier within two hundred miles of Baghdad." and you are thinking, SO FUCKING WHAT, KORCOK? well, this is what: the sphincter doesn't get to advocate exclusion counterplans which contain any substantial portion of US military liberation of Iraq. Baghdad Jack doesn't get to spray cologne on the pile of excrement that was his text by arguing that he supported the liberation of Baghdad. hey assjack, defend your asshole advocacy: the US shouldn't attack, the US won't attack, it is good that US military personnel get killed, Saddam Hussein will defeat the US. that is ALL you get to defend. that pile of shit is the only thing that came out of your assmouth. oh and this too... William S. Burroughs is here for Assjack's funeral and this is how he sees it: "I have described here a number of weapons and tactics in the war game. Weapons that change consciousness could call the war game in question. All games are hostile. Basically there is only one game from here to eternity. Mr Hubbard says that Scientology is a game where everybody wins. There are no games where everybody wins. That's what games are all about, winning and losing ... The Versailles Treaty ... Hitler dances the Occupation Jig ... War criminals hang at Nuremberg ...It is a rule of this game that there can be no final victory since this mean the end of the war game. Yet every player must believe in final victory and strive for it with all his power. Faced by the nightmare of final defeat he has no alternative. So all technologies with escalating efficiency produce more and more total weapons until we have the atom bomb which could end the game by destroying all players. Now mock up a miracle. The so stupid players decide to save the game. They sit down around a big table and draw up a plan for the immediate deactivation and eventual destruction of all atomic weapons. Why stop there? Conventional bombs are unnecessarily destructive if nobody has them hein? Let's turn back the war clock back to 1917: Keep the home fires burning Though the hearts are yearning There's a long, long trail awinding ... Back to the American Civil War... "He has loosed the fatal lightning of this terrible swift sword." His fatal lightning didn't cost as much in those days. Save a lot on the defence budget this way on back to flintlocks, matchlocks, swords, armour, lances, bows and arrows, spears, stone axes and clubs. Why stop there? Why not grow teeth and claws, poison fangs, stingers, spines, quills, beaks and suckers and stink glands and fight in out in the muck hein? That is what this revolution is about. End of game. New games? There are no new games from here to eternity. END OF THE WAR GAME." that's right, Assjack, William S. Burroughs called it GAME OVER. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030504/33ac9036/attachment.html From privethedge Sun May 4 23:49:49 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505044949.1462.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah..is it possible that Jack and Baghdad Bob are one and the same? "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030504/6f7eb1d4/attachment.htm From let_the_american_empire_burn Mon May 5 00:47:39 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 00:47:39 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Textual Strategies (Part V): The 'Air-Conditioned Nightmare' Critique Message-ID: the previous four parts (of the formerly called 'textual performance' series) are here (in order, www.ndtceda.com/archives/200207/0039.html, www.ndtceda.com/archives/200207/0042.html, www.ndtceda.com/archives/200207/0138.html, www.ndtceda.com/archives/200207/0143.html), and congrats to the chicago team which won a tourney on the Chekhov critique (i certainly didn't see that one coming). _ The following is an excerpt from Henry Miller's 'The Air Conditioned Nightmare (Volume 1)', published in 1945. This speech is constructed from a string of 'cards' cut in sequence (about 2/3rds of which come from the 'Preface'), as if a debater had 'highlighted down' an entire book (and all asteriks here denote italicized words in the original). Miller's work is surprisingly timely for the (post-9/11) time in which we live and incredibly potent in questioning many of the assumptions promulgated in debate today. In terms of mental health, Miller sees war-mongerers and utilitarians as insane addicts and judges harshly those institutional forces that seek to straight-jacket artists and other common-folk. More generally, his critiques of the fake democracy of the 'national emergency' state, swamped by reformist compromises, materialist monomania, and exploitative drudgery, are sardonic and scathing; his appeals for a global democratic vision led by a genuinely renegade America are persausive and touching - not to mention that Miller's prophecy on page 41 (written before the dropping of atomic bombs) was impressively accurate. One might object that only professionals are qualified to speak on matters such as these, and that the "private citizen" should "hold [their] tongue" - but Miller has no intention of making free-thinking people "docile" in the interests of the "bungling of politicians". And to the 'impact scenario'-doomsayers who pervade academic debate, Miller responds, "If it takes a calamity ... to awaken and transform us, well and good, so be it." The call for a 'heart-conversion' that compels a "radical, sweeping change" appears to me a relevant argument (whether as a 1AC or a 1NC, and regardless of the topic under consideration). There are many other themes developed in this chronicle of Miller's travels in America (that i didn't quote), including car-maintence, Hollywood, flag-worship, the injustices inflicted on Southern and Indian cultures, the Grand Canyon, children's gift of detachment, and also many insightful concepts later picked up by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari (e.g: nomad, Varese's sonal energy, rhizome, Gobi desert, etc.), but a few messages resound persistently, poetically, and simply: fight your way out of the cave; escape the treadmill; enrich the world with the beauty of your voice. .k _____ The thought of writing a book on America came to me in Paris some years ago. ... It was a bad beginning. The sight of New York, of the harbor, the bridges, the skyscrapers, ... added a feeling of terror. ... I hate compromises, but that's America for you. 'Next time you will be able to do as you please' - that's the song. It's a dastardly lie, but to palliate it you are given hush money. ... It framed itself thus: *no hope for the artist*! The only artists who were not leading a dog's life were the commercial artists ... The others were living like ex-convicts. This impression was confirmed and deepened as I travelled along. America is no place for an artist: to be an artist is to be a moral leper, an economic misfit, a social liability. ... 'Aren't you glad to be back in the good old U.S.A.?' was the usual greeting. ... To this you were expected to say, 'You betcha!' Behind these remarks there was of course an unacknowledged feeling of disappointment; the American artist who had been obliged to seek refuge again in his native land was angry with his European friends for having deprived him of the privilege of leading the life he most desired. ... America is made up, as we all know, of people who ran away from ugly situations. America is the land par excellence of expatriates and escapists, *renegades*, to use a strong word. ... A brave, new world it might have become, had we had the courage to turn our back on the old, to build afresh, to eradicate the poisons which had accumulated through centuries of bitter rivalry, jealouisy and strife. A new world is not made simply by trying to forget the old. A new world is made with a new spirit, with new values. Our world may have begun that way, but to-day it is caricatural. Our world is a world of *things*. It is made up of comforts and luxuries, or else the desire for them. What we dread most ... is that we shall be obliged to give up our gew-gaws, our gadgets, all the little comforts which have made us so uncomfortable. There is nothing brave, chivalrous, heroic or magnanimous about our attitude. We are not peaceful souls; we are smug, timid, queasy and quaky. ... What I am getting round to is this - though I am a born American, though I became what is called an expatriate, I look upon the world not as a partisan of this country or that but as an inhabitant of the globe. That I happened to be born here is no reason why the American way of life should seem the best ... We are accustomed to think of ourselves as an emancipated people; we say that we are democratic, liberty-loving, free of prejudice and hatred. This is the melting-pot, the seat of a great human experiment. Beautiful words, full of noble, idealistic sentiment. Actually we are a vulgar, pushing mob whose passions are easily moblized by demagogues, newspaper men, religious quacks, agitators and such like. To call this a society of free peoples is blasphemous. What have we to offer the world beside the superabundant loot which we recklessly plunder from the earth under the maniacal delusion that this insane activity represents progress and englightenment? The land of opportunity has become the land of senseless sweat and struggle. The goal of all our striving has long been forgotten. We no longer wish to succor the oppressed and homeless; there is no room in this great, empty land for those who, like our forefathers before us, now seek a place of refuge. Millions of men and women are ... condemned like guinea pigs to a life of forced idleness. The world meanwhile looks to us with a desperation such as it has never known before. Where is the democratic spirit? Where are the leaders? ... The workers of the world *may* one day, if they cease listening to their bigoted leaders, organize a brotherhood of man. But men cannot be brothers without first becoming peers, that is, equals in a kingly sense. ... Slaves cannot unite; cowards cannot unite; the ignorant cannot unite. It is only by obeying our highest impulses that we can unite. The urge to surpass oneself has to be instinctive, not theoretical or believable merely. Unless we make the efforts to *realize* the truths which are in us we shall fall again and again. As Democrats, Republicans, Fascists, Communists, we are all on one level. That is one of the reasons why we wage war so beautifully. We defend with our lives the petty principles which divide us. ... We are frightened of any urge which would lift us out of the muck. We fight only for the status quo, our *particular status quo*. We battle with heads down and eyes closed. ... Those who are on the defensive are fighting phantoms. What is the greatest treason? To question what it is one may be fighting for. Here insanity and treason join hands. War is a form of insanity - the noblest or the basest, according to your point of view. Because it is a mass insanity the wise are powerless to prevail against it. ... Man in revolt against his own cloying nature - that is real war. And that is a bloodless war which goes on forever, under the peaceful name of evolution. ... The answer to the grand experiment is in the heart; the search must be conducted inwardly. We are afraid to trust the heart. We inhabit a mental world, a labyrinth in whose dark recesses a monster waits to devour us. Thus far we have been moving in mythological dream sequence, finding no solutions because we are posing the wrong questions. We find only what we look for, and we are looking in the wrong place. We have come out of the darkness, abandon these explorations which are only flights of fear. ... These wars teach us nothing, not even how to conquer our fears. We are still cave men. Democratic cave men, perhaps, but that is small comfort. *Our fight is to get out of the cave*. If we were to make the least effort in that direction we would inspire the whole world. If we are going to play the role of Vulcan let us forge dazzling new weapons which will unshackle the chains which bind us. Let us not love the earth in a perverse way. Let us stop playing the role of recidivist. Let us stop murdering one another. ... The earth is a Paradise, the only one we will ever know. We will realize it the moment we open our eyes. We don't have to make it a Paradise - it *is* one. We have only to make ourselves fit to inhabit it. The man with the gun, the man with murder in his heart, cannot possibly recognize Paradise even when he is shown it. ... In New York what I like best is the ghetto. It gives me a sense of life. The people of the ghetto are foreigners; when I am in their midst I am no longer in New York but amidst the peoples of Europe. It is that which excites me. All that is progressive and American about New York I loathe. As to whether I have been deceived, disillusioned. The answer is yes, I suppose. I had the misfortunte to be nourished by the dreams and visions of great Americans - the poets and seers. Some other breed of man has won out. This world which is in the making fills me with dread. I have seen it germinate; I can read it like a blue-print. It is not a world I want to live in. It is a world suited for monomaniacs obsessed with the idea of progress - but a false progress, a progress which stinks. It is a world cluttered with useless objects which men and women, in order to be exploited and degraded, are taught to regard as useful. The dreamer whose dreams are non-utilitarian has no place in this world. Whatever does not lend itself to being bought and sold, whether in the realm of things, ideas, principles, dreams or hopes, is debarred. In this world the poet is anathema, the thinker a fool, the artist an escapist, the man of vision a criminal. ... If only we could look forward to a radical, sweeping change from top to bottom! ... And that is what I am vitally interested in - a change of heart, a conversion. We have a condition now which is called 'a national emergency'. Though the legislators and politicians may rant at will, though the newspaper tribe may rave and spread hysteria, though the military clique may bluster, threaten, and clamp down on everything which is not to their liking, the private citizen ... is supposed to hold his tongue. Since I have not the least respect for this attitude, since it does nothing to advance the cause of freedom, ... I believe with John Stuart Mill that 'a State which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more docile instruments in its hands even for beneficial purposes, will find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished.' ... If it takes a calamity such as war to awaken and transform us, well and good, so be it. Let us see now ... if the rich will be stripped of their booty and made to endure the privations and sufferings of the ordinary citizen; let us see if *all* the workers of America, regardless of class, ability or usefulness, can ... can voice their wishes in direct fashion, without the intercession, the distortion, and the bungling of politicians; let us see if we can create a real democracy in place of the fake one we have been finally roused to defend; let us see if we can be fair and just to our own kind, to say nothing of the enemy whom we shall doubtless conquer over. [p9-25 - 'Preface'.] ... The hospitals, the insane asylums, the prisons filled to overflowing [while a] man seated in a comfortable chair in New York, Chicago or San Francisco, a man surrounded by every luxury and yet paralyzed with fear and anxiety, controls the lives and destinies of thousands of men and women whom he has never seen, whom he never wishes to see and whose fate he is thoroughly uninterested in. This is what is called progress in the year 1941 in these United States of America. Since I am not of Indian, Negro or Mexican descent I do not derive any vengeful joy in delineating this picture of the white man's civilization. ... My descendants, ironically enough, will no longer be able to escape that duty: the whole white world has at last been turned into an armed camp. [p31] ... In the subway in New York you can see ... the newspaper addict, who revels in social and political theories and lives the life of a drudge, foolishly flattering himself that because he is not working with his hands (nor with his brain either, for that matter) he is better off than the poor white trash of the South. ... But ... when some one remarks about it we say, 'Yes, that's right, that's how it is!' and we go about our business or we take to dope, the dope which is worse by far than opium or hashish - I mean the newspapers, the radio, the movies. Real dope gives you the freedom to dream your own dreams; the American kind forces you to swallow the perverted dreams of men whose only ambition is to hold their job regardless of what they are bidden to do. The most terrible thing about America is that there is no escape from the treadmill which we have created. [p34] ... We have war memorials in our public squares that must make the dead in whose name they were erected squirm in their graves. [p35] ... Here we are, we the people the United States: the greatest people on earth, so we think. We have everything - everything it takes to make people happy. We have land, water, sky and all that goes with it. We could become the great shining example of the world; we could radiate peace, joy, power, beenvolence. But there are ghosts all about, ghosts whom we can't seem to lay hands on. We are not happy, not contented, not radiant, not fearless. [p39] ... We'll learn how to annihilate the whole planet in the wink of an eye - just wait and see. [p41 - 'Good News! God is Love!'] ... Do not think of America as such, America per se, America ad astra: think of skies without atmosphere, canals without water, of inhabitants without clothes, of words without thought, of life without death, of something going on endlessly and having no name, no rhyme or reason, yet making sense, making grand sense once you lose the obsession of time and space, of destiny, of causality, of logic, of entropy, of annihilation, of Nirvana and of Maya. [p62 - 'Vive La France!'] ... Few are those who can escape the tread-mill. ... To live beyond the pale, to work for the pleasure of working, to grow old gracefull while retaining one's faculties, one's enthusiasms, one's self-respect, one has to establish other values than those endorsed by the mob. It takes an artist to make this breach in the wall. An artist is primarily one who has faith in himmself. He does not respond to the normal stimuli: he is neither a drudge nor a parasite. He lives to express himself and in so doing enriches the world. [p118 - 'Dr. Souchon: Surgeon-Painter'] ... The American way is to seduce a man by bribery and make a prostitute of him. Or else to ignore him, starve him into submission and make a hack of him. It isn't the oceans which cut us off from the world - it's the American way of looking at things. Nothing comes to fruition here except utilitarian projects. ... What can you do with yourself if your life is dedicated to beauty? Do you want to face the prospect of spending the rest of your life in a straight-jacket? [p156-7] {long pause} ... Of course, you want to make sure that you drop your bombs on the right people [p159] ... When people scream in pain and terror stuff your ears: *it's only the enemy screaming, remember that*. ... Comforting thought. ... A few new lunatic asylums will also be opened ... This is a banner year in every respect. [p160 - - 'Letter to Lafayette'] ... God save America! {pause} That's what I say too, because who else is capable of doing the trick? [p189 - 'My Dream of Mobile']" _____ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From let_the_american_empire_burn Mon May 5 01:24:27 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:24:27 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube Message-ID: an asshole quoted 'Naked Lunch': "Then it developed sort of teeth-like little raspy in- curving hooks and start eating. He thought this was cute at first and built an act around it, but the asshole would eat its way through his pants and start talking on the street, shouting out it wanted equal rights. It would get drunk, too, and have crying jags nobody loved it and it wanted to be kissed same as any other mouth. Finally it talked all the time day and night, you could hear him for blocks screaming at it to shut up, and beating it with his fist, and sticking candles up it, but nothing did any good and the asshole said to him: 'It's you who will shut up in the end. Not me. Because we don't need you around here any more. I can talk and eat AND shit.'" Korcok, were you gonna quote what Burroughs goes on to say about "the basic American rotteness" or is that just 'infantile anti-Americanism' as well? ... your cut-up work sux: in 'Electronic Revolution', Burroughs was talking about ending the nationalistic war game, which you so obviously hang your entire self-worth on ('this is the best country in the world' and 'i'm a proud american' blahblahblah), to wit: "Intellectual uniformity is more and more necessary as the contradictions and failures of the society become more and more apparent. It has reached the point now where it's practically a criminal offense to express a sensible opinion. ... Suggest that anything's basically wrong with society, you're an anarchist striking at the very roots of organized civilization. [p69] ... Yes, ... war is absolutely essential to the maintenance of modern society, and they've always got to keep one going somewhere. They're necessary both psychologically and economically. You see, the whole concept of a nation depends on the hostility of another nation on the other side of a line. If you didn't have that factor of hostility, if there were no conflicts, the lines would break down. And they wouldn't have a nation to rule. [p77] ... Difficult to believe that people in positions of power who form the foreign and domestic policies of America could be so stupid and so basically ill-intentioned. Conformity on the part of the vast middle class - (the Wallace folks) - ... ha[s] reached an unprecedented scale. [p78] ... There should be more riots and more violence. Young people in the West have been lied to, sold out, and betrayed. Best thing they can do is take the place apart before they are destroyed in a nuclear war. [p81] ... At the present time we all are confined in concentration camps called nations. We are forced to obey laws to which we have not consented, and to pay exorbitant taxes to maintain the prisons in which we are confined. [p98]" ... (excerpts taken from chapter two ('prisoners of the earth come out') of The Job (1974), which also has portions of the Eletronic Revolution). see yourself in that paragraph at all, Korcok? ... you know, its not nice to pick on others simply because you can't win against someone like me :) .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From hansonjb Mon May 5 02:45:36 2003 From: hansonjb (Jim Hanson) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:45:36 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ndt points, final check, monday 5pm References: Message-ID: <002201c312da$e4680a60$d7077144@hansonjb> any corrections to the ndt points must be sent to me by 5pm today, monday, may 5 (pacific time). after that, the rankings become final. check your points here (not at the bruschke page): http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/ndt/03main.htm jim hanson :) ndt ranking director whitman college hansonjb at whitman.edu From mmk_savant Mon May 5 08:42:44 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 06:42:44 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Baghdad Museum artifacts Message-ID: not the "feared" 170,000 pieces missing, there are 38 missing antiquities. the most valuable one still missing is the Warka vase. the missing stuff was still in the museum. go figure. from a few hours ago: http://www.statesman.com/nationworld/content/news/050403/0504iraqmuseum.html and the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City has an exhibit of Mesopotamian art treasures. seems to me like the Met could give back to the newly-freed Iraq much of the looted patrimony of the region that it is displaying. where is the outrage on this list? GIVE THE STUFF BACK. especially that lyre in the Met's collection whose "twin" has gone missing in Baghdad. and i SWEAR i saw this piece ( http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/photos/antiquities/stromm_fig26.jpg.zip ) at the local Pier 1 Imports the other day. i didn't buy it because interpol is scary, even though i thought about holding it for safe keeping for a couple of decades. the Jordanians have no such reservations and are keeping the artifacts that they are confiscating, much of it from JOURNALISTS, at the border for "safe keeping" ( http://www.kcrg.com/article.aspx?art_id=57812&cat_id=152 ). hey Jordan! GIVE THE STUFF BACK! and does anyone else get the impression that archeologists weep way too much? i swear i've read at least a dozen stories that report different archeologists crying about the plundering. yeesh. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/25d73ae6/attachment.html From ccooper Mon May 5 12:04:16 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:04:16 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A73370711430D1@exm01w.apac.planning.org> You know you're winning when Korcok, demonstrating both his ability to insert random hyperlinks in his "rebuttals" and his inability to excercise even a small portion of his tiny little brain, resorts to Ronald McDonald ad-hominems. Oh Mikey...you make an ideal foe because you effectively demonstrate the sheer idiocy and bewildering lack of creativity in the opposing viewpoint. Keep it up. Cooper's Troopers are only one element of my "counterplan" (as it were). And, Korcok's rebuttal consists of 5 REALLY bad arguments against that element. Laughably bad. SO bad that I almost suspect that Korcok is pitching soft balls because somewhere in his tiny little brain he AGREES with my proposal. I mean...you can read his full post below...but here's the reality of his args: 1) We can't find Saddam. Sounds like an intelligence problem. I'll admit that we would have to be better at intelligence to have an effective international SWAT force. But I think if the international community agreed to an enforcement force, they would provide more effective shared intelligence. It wouldn't just be the U.S. bumbling around. (That's a TURN, by the way). AND...you're forgetting the indirect and preventitive portions of my plan. Indirect = Don't need to find Saddam...his "administration" becomes irrelevent to the day-to-day operations of the country (see Kurdish controlled Iraq) Preventive = Don't need to find Saddam...we don't help put him in power in the first place. 2) In 1998, Sen. Biden called for bringing Saddam to trial. Bully. Yay. Not my Counterplan. Not ever done. At best this evidence is a big fat TURN to any politics disad. to my counterplan. Gracias, senor Taco. 3) People make fun of the French. Yeah...and your arguments are like shooting frogs in a barrel. What are you trying to say, Korcok? I think a person with a bigger brain may help you translate your beginnings of a thought into something like "the French would block sending in an international SWAT team to apprehend Saddam." But you lack evidence for that argument, especially if the alternative is a unilateral U.S. occupation. In fact, I think the French would get jiggy with the idea of dumping a bunch of GHB and ecstasy into the Baghdad water system. Have you ever partied with the French? 4) Perm: Do Coop's counterplan now. Not competitive, but perhaps not a bad idea. 5) Coop has no solvency ev. Juhdge! I bet you went for (and lost) a bunch of debates on "Solvency Advocate", didn't you? Ever heard of scholarship, Korcok? Synthesis, analysis, application? These are the activities of people with bigger brains. Here's what some of them think: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1212/p11s03-stgn.htm http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/SepOct99/thomash.htm http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/167165.html http://www.angelfire.com/or/mctrl/nonlethal.html The most important near-term application of nonlethal technology appears to be in areas such as: operations in "failed states," as a counter to the non-Western form of warfare that is emerging globally, as a defense against the specter of further terrorist assaults upon our homeland, and as a means of responding to civil unrest in many of our inner cities. Over the longer term, it is their fit with other nascent warfighting trends embodied in the revolution in political and military affairs (RPMA) that is of paramount significance. For example, nonlethal weapons could present new and potentially highly effective mechanisms for dealing with an advanced form of battlespace (i.e. cyberspace) and the criminally-based non-state soldier (i.e. terrorist, mercenary or "new-warrior class") as a challenger to the Western nation-state's domination of political violence. http://www.unh.edu/ntic/index.html To date, non-lethal technologies have seen limited but effective use. For example, pepper spray have been employed to disperse angry mobs in domestic riot situations and rubber baton rounds in the Bosnian peacekeeping missions. Non-lethal technologies are often used by law enforcement and corrections agencies to end domestic violence conflicts, prevent suicides, and to intervene in other threatening situations. However, the call for improved yet simple, effective technologies and weapons that provide a safe alternative to deadly force continues. In 1995 U.S. Marines began their peacekeeping mission in Somalia with only two extreme choices: intervention between warring parties with batons at great personal risk, or turning guns on the citizens they had come to help. In 1996 terrorists stormed a holiday reception at the Japanese embassy in Peru holding diplomats and state dignitaries hostage for weeks. In 1999 during Operation Desert Fox in Iraq, U.S. and British forces strove to degrade Saddam Hussein's ability to field weapons of mass destruction in an era when neither the threat of nuclear retaliation nor massive conventional force projection provides a credible deterrent to international criminals. In these and other historic events, e.g., Kent State University, Ruby Ridge, and Waco, it is worth asking how the outcomes --- the human, social and political consequences --- might have been different if a spectrum of non-lethal responses had been available, deployed, and used. Not only have lethal alternatives grown extremely vulnerable in the court of world opinion, but they are also untenable in view of the ultimate goal of peaceful conflict resolution. In addition, further research is needed on the medical, social, ethical consequences and liabilities of their use. And this, again, only addresses the DIRECT components of my plan. Try again? Or better yet...just post some more links to webpages that let you create evil clown faces (that was fun). Leave the policy analysis to the adults. COOP -----Original Message----- From: Michael Korcok [mailto:mmk_savant at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 7:52 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper Cooper, finally, 2 weeks after the major fighting in the US liberation of Iraq ended, spelled out the alternative to the Bush Administration policy that he thinks should have been done instead. paraphrasing, Chris ( http://clown-forum.com/clown-links.htm ) now advocates the formation of Cooper's Troopers, a tightly-knit and international band of burly men trained in the arts of pursuit and handcuffery. Cooper's Troopers would wear sky-blue jumpsuits and helmets and carry out Chris's every command. Chris thinks that sending Cooper's Troopers after Saddam and Sons would have been better than what the Bush administration actually did. he also wrote some pablum nonsense like support democracy and increase support for international law, none of which he attempted to show would have done squat to remove Saddam and Sons. the way Cooper put the "direct action" part was: "The United States should establish and aquiesse to an international enforcement mechanism for international treaties against genocide, torture, and other various bad things. This enforcement mechanism should include an international S.W.A.T. team of highly-trained, and fully funded troops equipt with non-lethal weapons and urban pacification technology (you know...sonic, chems. in the water system, gas). International treaties on the development and use of CBW's should provide an exception for this team." well then. Cooper criticizes the Bush Administration's liberation of Iraq and his "creative BIG IDEA" is to send in a bunch of goons dressed like clowns ( http://www.scottsmind.com/evil_clown.html ) to dump tubs of acid ( http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/lsd09a.htm ) in the Tigris and then kidnap Saddam and Sons while 5 million Iraqis are tripping out to Belgium to stand trial or something. 1. Well the bad news is that though Krusty, Bozo, Blinko, Uncle Soapy, and Ronald McDonald ( http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_McDonald ) might get all the frikkin SWAT training and gear ( http://www.takemetoyourreaders.org/clown_camp.htm ), there isn't ONE damn reason to believe that they could have stolen into Baghdad to find, much less kidnap Saddam. as for Uday and that other one, the really really slippery son, fergetaboutit. this is what Mary Curtius staffwriter for the Boston Globe wrote about it on January 24, 2001 ( http://www.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/globe_stories/012491_hussein_target .htm ): "The White House and the Pentagon have decided to refrain from targeting Saddam Hussein for attack because of the practical problem of finding him and not because of the executive order prohibiting assassination of foreign leaders, according to senior administration officials. The officials, who declined to be identified, dismissed the contention that the United States has been held back by the executive order, which has been in effect since the mid-1970s. They said Saddam Hussein's position during wartime as supreme commander of Iraq's military makes him a lawful target for assassination, whether by bombing mission or commando attack, but there is the problem of locating him. "The practical problem makes the philosophical problem nonexistent," said one administration official. "After all, in Panama, with several tens of thousands of soldiers on the ground, we had a hell of a time finding Noriega, and that was in one city." Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega, the Panamanian leader, escaped to the Vatican Embassy in Panama and eventually surrendered to US forces. A White House official, asked whether the assassination policy protected Saddam Hussein, said: "It's not a legal problem for us, it's a practical one. We just can't find the guy." Saddam Hussein, who has been seen publicly only rarely since the war began last week, is said to be hiding from US bombardment in a range of secure bunkers throughout Baghdad. One of the bunkers, according to a German newspaper, is a nuclear-proof facility, built with German technology, beneath the presidential palace. While not directly aiming at Saddam Hussein, US warplanes have struck at sites frequented by him in the past. According to official US accounts and unconfirmed reports, allied bombing attacks have hit Saddam Hussein's presidential palace and the Baath Party regional command headquarters in Baghdad, military targets in his home village of Tikrit and at least one of his many presidential retreats." and this is what Tom Raum of the Associated Press wrote about it on September 14, 2002: ( http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/091502/new_20020915002.shtml ) "That does not mean he will be easy to catch. An attempt in 1993 to capture Somalia warlord Mohammed Farrah Aidid ended with the deaths of 18 U.S. troops and hundreds of Somalis. In 1989, the United States sent 24,000 troops into Panama to oust Gen. Manuel Noriega. Even with a $1 million bounty on his head, it took 14 days to capture him. Panama then was a country of just 2.3 million people and included U.S. military bases. Iraq has a population of 20 million and a standing army of 400,000. Slobodan Milosevic, the former president of Yugoslavia, proved elusive in NATO's 78-day air war in 1999. Even though the United States offered a $5 million reward, he remained at large until his April 2001 arrest by Serbian police on war-crimes charges. In 1986, President Reagan ordered military jets to strike at Libya's president Moammar Gadhafi's compound and military headquarters in Tripoli. It was retaliation for the bombing of a night club in Germany frequented by U.S. servicemen. G.m.) of adhafi was uninjured and remains in power today. Efforts by the U.S. government in the 1960s to overthrow -- even assassinate -- Cuba's Fidel Castro were famously unsuccessful. Saddam emerged unscathed from devastating bombing of Baghdad in both the 1991 Gulf War and again in December 1998 during a four-day U.S.-British air bombardment. The first President Bush, who stopped the 1991 war short of overthrowing Saddam, wrote later that he actively considered going after him. ''None of us minded if he was killed in the course of an air attack. Yet it was extremely difficult to target Saddam, who was known to move frequently and under tight security,'' Bush wrote in a 1998 memoir. ''We had problems locating Noriega in Panama, a place we knew well. Saddam was far more elusive and better protected,'' he wrote. ''We later learned Saddam had been caught in one military convoy attacked by coalition aircraft, but escaped unharmed.'' and you know, the frikkin US shot 40 cruise missiles and 2 bunker busters on the man's frikkin house and maybe didn't get him and then 2 weeks later dropped 4 1-ton JDAMs on the restaurant he and his sons were eating in and maybe didn't get him. WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT COOPER'S TROOPERS HAVE A CHANCE OF CATCHING SADDAM AND SONS EVEN PEDALLING TOP SPEED ON THEIR LITTLE TRICYCLES? ESPECIALLY WEARING THOSE BIG FLOPPY CLOWN SHOES? 2. empirically FAILED. Joe Biden DID your dumb counterplan 5 years ago. the Senate passed it 93-0. unanimous. DIDN'T DO SQUAT. unless you have some kick-ass reason that Cooper's Troopers would be MUCH better than Biden's Brigadiers, shutupyou. from ( http://foreign.senate.gov/Democratic/press/98/980313.html ): "Sen. Joseph R. Biden, Jr., ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, today joined his Senate colleagues in supporting a resolution calling for the establishment of an international commission and criminal tribunal to investigate and prosecute Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials for war crimes and genocide. The Senate passed the indictment resolution by a vote of 93-0. Biden said, "Through his genocidal campaigns against the Kurds, the brutal treatment of Kuwaiti civilians, and the repeated use of chemical weapons, Saddam Hussein has earned his place as one of history's most cold-blooded dictators." "It is high time that the international community stop looking the other way when he commits these blatant crimes against humanity. We have to begin compiling the evidence of his atrocities and initiate criminal proceedings to deliver the punishment that he so richly deserves." The Resolution calls for the United Nations to set up a commission to record the criminal culpability of Saddam Hussein and to establish a criminal tribunal, similar to those created in Rwanda and Bosnia, to prosecute the charges. Biden acknowledged there are obstacles to bringing Saddam Hussein to justice in a court of law but noted that the Resolution would be an important statement of principle. "We should not underestimate the difficulty of physically delivering Saddam Hussein to a tribunal, but we cannot abandon the quest for justice. "The Kurds are not the only victims of Saddam's atrocities. Whenever international response to his crimes is weak, Saddam is emboldened. We cannot afford to keep our outrage to the realm of rhetoric any longer," Biden said. Since 1988, Saddam Hussein has launched numerous chemical weapons and military offensives against Kurdish settlements and has razed hundreds of "Marsh Arab" villages in southern Iraq. The offensives, marked by systematic killings and forcible relocations, have resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths. He has also used chemical weapons against and fired missiles at civilians in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain." 3. the French or the Russians would have prevented Cooper's Troopers from going in anyway. Cooper will answer that since there are no burly Frenchmen, that Cooper's Troopers wouldn't let them join. HELLLLLOOOOO!!!! can you say Marcel Marceu? ( http://www.marceau.org/ ). and that means NO GO for COOPER'S TROOPERS. Gary Younge and Jon Henley explained in The Guardian on Tuesday February 11, 2003 ( http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,893263,00.html ) "A cartoon in the same paper shows an ostrich with its head in the sand below the words: "The national bird of France." If such language is proving a headache for the diplomats, then spare a thought for the French translators, who have struggled for words to convey the full force of the venom. "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" - a phrase coined by Bart Simpson but made acceptable in official diplomatic channels around the globe by Jonah Goldberg, a columnist for the rightwing weekly National Review (according to Goldberg) - was finally rendered: " Primates capitulards et toujours en qu?te de fromages ". And the New York Post's "axis of weasel" lost much of its venom when translated as a limp " axe de faux jetons " (literally, "axis of devious characters")." ostrich ( http://www.jan.ne.jp/~kawabe/addo/img/ostrich_m.jpg ) weasel ( http://www.animalinyou.com/weasel.htm ) french cheese-eating surrender monkey ( http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-frenchsurrendermonkey.h tm ) 4. PERM and TURN: send in Cooper's Troopers now to find and bring Saddam and Sons to justice. now that there is some chance that the counterplan can be made effective. 5. what the hell are you babbling about, Cooper? post at least 1 damn solvency card. just one semi-sane non-idiot that thinks your idea had any chance at all of actually WORKING to get rid of Saddam and Sons. otherwise, you got nothing. clown. thanks for laughing, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/ce2e0ec9/attachment.htm From jbruschke Mon May 5 13:35:25 2003 From: jbruschke (Bruschke, Jon) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:35:25 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Job announcement at CSU, Fullerton Message-ID: Our department has approved a 3-year lecturership to teach argumentation and work with our urban debate league. Qualifications are a master's degree and experience with the UDL is a plus. The announcement is attached, and let me know if you have questions! Jon ***** Dr. Jon Bruschke, CSU Fullerton jbruschke at fullerton.edu 714-278-3272 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/4ac1e823/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SCUDL lecturer 03 Type: application/octet-stream Size: 327168 bytes Desc: SCUDL lecturer 03 Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/4ac1e823/attachment.obj From Pacedebate Mon May 5 13:59:23 2003 From: Pacedebate (Pacedebate at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:59:23 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Baghdad Museum artifacts Message-ID: <186.1949c64b.2be80e8b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 9:46:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mmk_savant at hotmail.com writes: > and does anyone else get the impression that archeologists weep way too > much? i swear i've read at least a dozen stories that report different > archeologists crying about the plundering. yeesh. my soon to be x-wife weeps about this stuff. I respect that like I want people to understand my love of a Wes Lotz cx. Hard for 99.999% of the populace to get but to me that probably makes it more beautiful. Tim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/57a6a2cf/attachment.html From stannardmatt Mon May 5 14:23:47 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:23:47 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper Message-ID: Coop asks Korcok: "I bet you went for (and lost) a bunch of debates on "Solvency Advocate", didn't you?" Actually, that argument hadn't been invented yet. Ask him about whole res... stannard _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Pacedebate Mon May 5 14:24:29 2003 From: Pacedebate (Pacedebate at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:24:29 EDT Subject: [eDebate] pro debate tour Message-ID: Someone asked me if participants can sell the evidence they produce to other handbook companies and the answer is a definite YES. If a handbook company is willing to sponsor a team in exchange for their evidence that sounds like a great idea to me. If debaters prefer to keep the evidence and sell it themselves that is fine too. My goal is not to make money it is to start a viable pro debate tour. I hope the handbook angle will allow debaters to offset their costs so they will be able to participate in all of our tournaments. However they do that is fine with me. thanks, Tim Mahoney Director, Pro Debate Tour www.prodebatetour.com 214-734-3673 972-726-8852 (home) 425-740-9130 fax email: prodebatetour at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/663fe516/attachment.htm From jreubenclark Mon May 5 15:22:14 2003 From: jreubenclark (Josh clark) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] if you love jason giffard... Message-ID: sherriff, money, or ass face...he's been called them all, but now there is a website devoted to him...This person is Jason Giffard...All welcome to check it out.http://www.geocities.com/joshrclark10/jgiff.html?1052090726434 _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ehrlenmeyerflask Mon May 5 15:54:01 2003 From: ehrlenmeyerflask (Aaron Klemz) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/91332a68/attachment.html From Jmara17 Mon May 5 16:15:07 2003 From: Jmara17 (Jmara17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:15:07 EDT Subject: [eDebate] An lesson about community from the NYUDL -- (Please Read) Message-ID: <17a.1a474aa6.2be82e5b@aol.com> The New York Urban Debate League recently returned from the New York State Debate Championships in Albany, New York. In addition to the many NYUDL debaters, the policy division included students from The Bronx High School of Science, Monticello, and others debating in novice, intermediate, and advanced divisions. After a weekend of highly competitive debate the results were remarkable. The enlivened NY Urban Debate League debaters swept all three divisions of the 2003 NY State Debate Championships. Jael McGreal and Amber Joseph representing The Institute for Collaborative Education were rewarded for their hard work all year with a first place trophy in the novice division. Two teams from The Bronx School for Law, Government, and Justice closed out the intermediate division. Edwar Estrada and Chris Forbes advanced over Marlon Gordon and Ashlee Vega to win in finals. The third place trophy went to another NYUDL school; Yobanna Cruz and Orlando Rodriguez from Hostos-Lincoln Academy defeated Bronx High School of Science team to win third place. In the varsity division of the tournament, 3 of the top 4 schools represented were from the NYUDL. Marquis Harrison and Bruke Abenet, two exceptional debaters from Manhattan Center HS won in finals against Monticello HS. The third place trophy was awarded to the team of Curlene Hunte and Ebonie Kirkland of The School for Legal Studies. Rhea Natividad and Parice Grant rounded out the top teams with a fourth place trophy. The accomplishments for the NYUDL schools were not limited to team awards. The top speaker in each division was awarded to a NYUDL debater. Amber Joseph from The Institute for Collaborative Education received the top speaker award in the novice division. The top three speakers in the intermediate division have been winning awards in the NYUDL for years. Edwar Estrada received the top speaker award. He was followed by Yobanna Cruz and Chris Forbes who were the second and third speaker in the intermediate division. In the varsity division of the tournament 6 of the top 8 speakers were from the NYUDL. Top speaker and second speaker went to the top team of Marquis Harrison and Bruke Abenet from Manhattan Center HS. Receiving the third place speaker award was Curlene Hunte of The School for Legal Studies. We, at IMPACT, are both appreciative and proud of all of the students, teachers, and coaches who have worked so tirelessly all year. Together with the staff of The IMPACT Coalition, they make up the body that is the NYUDL. The accomplishments of those who placed at states are reflective of the entire community. Although we are excited by the success of our students, it is important to note that the success of the NYUDL has never been dependent on trophies, awards, or other accolades. In the year that I have spent working at IMPACT, it is evident that our students, teachers, coaches, and judges help each other in a multitude of ways. They put community ahead of competition in all that they do and say when it comes to debating. I cannot imagine a better way in which to measure success. Only as a result of this nurturing and supportive environment have our teams been able to achieve so much this year. The NYUDL machine runs on the energy of an elite staff at The IMPACT Coalition. In spite of the staff's obvious ability to leave the nonprofit world to join the Professional League of Foosball Players, the staff at IMPACT works tirelessly to facilitate the NYUDL. Special thanks to Shannon Feldman who turned down a contract with the New Jersey Warriors (a professional foosball team) to oversee every aspect of the NYUDL's participation at the state tournament. The NYUDL also owes much thanks to Emmanuel Villanueva for braving the initial trip to Albany. Emmanuel ventured to Albany amid snow and ice to give our kids the opportunity to show that they truly are some of the top debaters in New York State. Lastly, thanks to Will Baker. Will has infused us all with a contagious excitement that is always accompanied by hard work, vision, and an open heart. Sincerely, Je'Mara J. Atwood Je'Mara J. Atwood Special Projects Officer IMPACT Coalition Office (212) 702 0944 Fax (212) 471 8664 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/0ec35f00/attachment.htm From tshuman Mon May 5 16:19:29 2003 From: tshuman (Terrance Shuman) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:19:29 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok: ans Klemz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505161045.00a288b0@mail.magiccablepc.com> De-cloaking again, briefly... At 03:54 PM 5/5/2003 -0500, Aaron Klemz wrote: >his plan is predicated upon obviating any thought about how U.S. policy >for the past 35 plus years have ultimately made the invasion of Iraq and >the deposing of Saddam Hussein inevitable. Excuse me, but I don't see anywhere in his "plan" a proposal to ban thought about/public discussion of the past. We can think about it/talk about it to your heart's content. However, I'm not sure your apparent belief that we shouldn't act NOW because of past events is the proper way to conduct foreign policy. Circumstances change, obviously. Yes, at one point in history we supported bin Laden in Afghanistan, at one point in history we preferred Iraq over Iran in that war, etc. Why those decisions should circumscribe our judgement about what ought to happen NOW is not entirely clear to me. Could you justify this, please? Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and...well, not so tall as I used to be, Terrance Shuman Bishop LeBlond Memorial High School St. Joseph, Missouri From ccooper Mon May 5 16:46:52 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:46:52 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok: ans Klemz Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A73370711430E8@exm01w.apac.planning.org> My counterplan solves both issues. Preventive components consider how our past actions then led to the "necessity" of our current actions (just like our actions now will necessitate our future stupid actions). The fact that the actions are done now (as opposed to the future) do not make them any less stupid...by the way. But...the direct and indirect components address those of you who prefer a more myopic form of foreign policy. I like to think of Aaron's counterplan as a better explanation of the preventive components of mine. kisskiss, COOP -----Original Message----- From: Terrance Shuman [mailto:tshuman at magiccablepc.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:19 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: Re: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok: ans Klemz De-cloaking again, briefly... At 03:54 PM 5/5/2003 -0500, Aaron Klemz wrote: >his plan is predicated upon obviating any thought about how U.S. policy >for the past 35 plus years have ultimately made the invasion of Iraq and >the deposing of Saddam Hussein inevitable. Excuse me, but I don't see anywhere in his "plan" a proposal to ban thought about/public discussion of the past. We can think about it/talk about it to your heart's content. However, I'm not sure your apparent belief that we shouldn't act NOW because of past events is the proper way to conduct foreign policy. Circumstances change, obviously. Yes, at one point in history we supported bin Laden in Afghanistan, at one point in history we preferred Iraq over Iran in that war, etc. Why those decisions should circumscribe our judgement about what ought to happen NOW is not entirely clear to me. Could you justify this, please? Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and...well, not so tall as I used to be, Terrance Shuman Bishop LeBlond Memorial High School St. Joseph, Missouri _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/bce8b4ec/attachment.html From stannardmatt Mon May 5 16:57:44 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:57:44 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok: ans Klemz Message-ID: Terrance: You wrote: "Excuse me, but I don't see anywhere in his "plan" a proposal to ban thought about/public discussion of the past. We can think about it/talk about it to your heart's content." With all due respect (and you know I respect you), while Korcok may not explicitly, as a matter of policy, call for banning discussion of the systemic antecedents of current policies, a rigid, closed, anti-discourse perspective is implicit in nearly everything he writes. From his insinuations in the past two years that those questioning US hegemony were guilty of aid and comfort to the enemy, to his current tendency to refer to one participant on this list as "Baghdad Jack,"* to his general attitude of superiority, ridicule, and constant barrage of phrases like "stupid" and "tard" towards those who disagree with him, it's clear to me he is not interested in genuine discussion. Virtually everything he writes on this list is a demand to finality. He may not be rounding people up for thought crimes, but his discourse greases the wheels for those who think we should be rounded up. stannard * Regardless of my theoretical or tactical differences with Jack, giving someone the title "Baghdad" is a clear, historical-based insinuation. It's uncalled for and dishonest. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ehrlenmeyerflask Mon May 5 17:15:25 2003 From: ehrlenmeyerflask (Aaron Klemz) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:15:25 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Ans Shuman - silence ain't always golden Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/457158ac/attachment.htm From Mikedavis13 Mon May 5 17:27:03 2003 From: Mikedavis13 (Mikedavis13 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:27:03 EDT Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement Message-ID: <75.1053cffb.2be83f37@aol.com> I am pleased to announce that Piedmont College in Demorest, Georgia will be starting a debate team next year. They have a very supportive administration and some very eager student. They will be starting their season at GA State next year. Some good news on the program front. Mike Davis UGA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/4956e752/attachment.html From jackattack7 Mon May 5 18:34:55 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:34:55 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube Message-ID: just explain "saddam is evil" consistency w secret deal 2 fly him out and have him become an intelligence consultant in the middle east like he was when he started his job w the CIA.... korcok you spent a lot of time trying to avoid answering the secret deal...an iraqi commander was ordered on april 8 to go north of baghdad from his defensive position near one of the bridges to southern baghdad and then go home. what's the deal w the secret deal that ain't so secret anymore? is it so secret that you have a right to drop the evidence from Knight Ridder news service that makes the case plain and simple, the US govt is too chickenshit to tell the american people, that the victory is a joke of bribery, corruption, and cowardice to fight war? where are your famous "internet hoax" debunk sites like the ones that say W's IQ scores are not public knowledge? your poem is weak. one of the planks of the CP is to fight the war without the secret deal as the linchpin for the war plan or make the secret deal public in an effort to keep a semblance of democracy in the US and iraq both or something...anything but the shitty status quo that you endorse through your salient silence and your flowery distractions from the issue at hand. come on, korcok you like bush are perfect and so your hardball tactics are eternally justified. the war was a dream come true fitting of poetic inspiration. the people were totally fooled into thinking that real fighting even took place. congratulations, your wetdream hero is the commander-in-chief of modern rent-a-cop mercenaries that specialize in TV programming, tight flight jackets and AWOL!!! your burroughs is old and haggardly. sanchez is right if you wanna play burroughs then you shirley can't win like jack black said. stromboli/kolakowski films >From: "Michael Korcok" >To: >Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube >Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:27:09 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [63.193.189.220] >X-Originating-Email: [mmk_savant at hotmail.com] >Received: from mc8-f4.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.140]) by >mc8-s21.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 4 May >2003 20:32:00 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc8-f4.law1.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 4 May 2003 20:32:00 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h453TRw16760;Sun, 4 May 2003 >23:29:27 -0400 >Received: from hotmail.com (oe22.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.79])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h453RBw16103for >; Sun, 4 May 2003 23:27:11 -0400 >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; >Sun, 4 May 2003 20:27:33 -0700 >Received: from 63.193.189.220 by oe22.law11.hotmail.com with DAV;Mon, 05 >May 2003 03:27:33 +0000 >X-Message-Info: 5jLNoj5+wFaGS0LOydi0gZPXBsGrWmNF >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 >Message-ID: >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2003 03:27:33.0803 (UTC) >FILETIME=[446FC7B0:01C312B6] >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com > >something special for the resident anti-semitic psychotic assmouth of >edebate. > >Several cadets from the military academies asked a couple of months back >who Jack Stroube was. i don't know if anyone backchannelled them an answer >or if that answer was the right one. This is the inside-scoop, the >straight-shit about Baghdad Jack. > >William S. Burroughs was there when Assjack was born and this is how he saw >it: > >"Then it developed sort of teeth-like little raspy in- curving hooks and >start eating. He thought this was cute at first and built an act around it, >but the asshole would eat its way through his pants and start talking on >the street, shouting out it wanted equal rights. It would get drunk, too, >and have crying jags nobody loved it and it wanted to be kissed same as any >other mouth. Finally it talked all the time day and night, you could hear >him for blocks screaming at it to shut up, and beating it with his fist, >and sticking candles up it, but nothing did any good and the asshole said >to him: 'It's you who will shut up in the end. Not me. Because we don't >need you around here any more. I can talk and eat AND shit.' > >and sure enough, two Tuesdays later, the asshole was in complete control of >the entire body, the sphincter had swallowed the skull and cracked it in >half, absorbing the gray matter into the small intestine. and Assjack kept >talking and talking, pointless expulsions of rancid, poorly digested >texts. talked until its cloaca began to bleed. and then it rested and >thought. it thought silently for 2 weeks, just eating and shitting, eating >and shitting, not talking. then it belch-farted a long, satisfied, pungent >belch-fart of self-realization. Assjack had a plan. > >William S. Burroughs was there when Assjack came up with its big strategy >and this is how he saw it: > > "To see how scrambling technique could work on a a mass scale, imagine >that a news magazine like TIME got out a whole issue a week before >publication and filled it with news based on predictions following a >certain line, without attempting the impossible, giving our boys a boost in >every story and the Commies as many defeats and casualties as possible, a >whole new issue of TIME formed from slanted prediction of future news. Now >imagine this scrambled out through the mass media. > With minimal equipment you can do the same thing on a smaller scale. >You need a scrambling device, TV, radio, two video cameras, a ham radio >station and a simple photo studio with a few props and actors. For a start >you scramble the news all together and spit it out every which way on ham >radio and street recorders. You construct fake news broadcasts on video >camera. For the pictures you can use mostly old footage. Mexico City will >do for a riot in Saigon Chile you can use the Londonderry pictures. Nobody >knows the difference. Fires, earthquakes, plane crashes can be moved >around. for example, here is a plane crash in Toronto 108 dead. so move the >picture of the Barcelona plane crash over to Toronto and Toronto to >Barcelona. And you scramble your fabricated news in with actual news >broadcasts. > You have an advantage which your opposing player does not have. He >must conceal his manipulations. You are under no such necessity. In fact >you can advertise the fact that you are writing the news in advance and >trying to make it happen by techniques which anybody can use. And that >makes you NEWS. And TV personality as well, if you play it right. You want >the widest possible circulation for your cut/up video tapes. Cut/up >techniques could swamp the mass media with total illusion." > >and for the last few months Assjack has been scrambling the cuts, >predicting the garble, trying to make it happen his way. remember, he >strenuously opposed US military liberation of Iraq. he even bet $3,000 >that the Bush Administration would be prevented from going into Iraq by the >UN. during the 3 weeks of the war, Stroube creepily and gleefully posted >every setback, each mistake, every US death on edebate, several times >predicting imminent US defeat and retreat. if he hadn't chewed up his own >brain, Assjack would have written, Abrams tanks rolling on the streets >below, "There's not an American soldier within two hundred miles of >Baghdad." > >and you are thinking, SO FUCKING WHAT, KORCOK? well, this is what: > >the sphincter doesn't get to advocate exclusion counterplans which contain >any substantial portion of US military liberation of Iraq. Baghdad Jack >doesn't get to spray cologne on the pile of excrement that was his text by >arguing that he supported the liberation of Baghdad. hey assjack, defend >your asshole advocacy: the US shouldn't attack, the US won't attack, it is >good that US military personnel get killed, Saddam Hussein will defeat the >US. that is ALL you get to defend. that pile of shit is the only thing >that came out of your assmouth. > >oh and this too... > >William S. Burroughs is here for Assjack's funeral and this is how he sees >it: > > "I have described here a number of weapons and tactics in the war >game. Weapons that change consciousness could call the war game in >question. All games are hostile. Basically there is only one game from here >to eternity. Mr Hubbard says that Scientology is a game where everybody >wins. There are no games where everybody wins. That's what games are all >about, winning and losing ... The Versailles Treaty ... Hitler dances the >Occupation Jig ... War criminals hang at Nuremberg ...It is a rule of this >game that there can be no final victory since this mean the end of the war >game. Yet every player must believe in final victory and strive for it with >all his power. Faced by the nightmare of final defeat he has no >alternative. So all technologies with escalating efficiency produce more >and more total weapons until we have the atom bomb which could end the game >by destroying all players. Now mock up a miracle. The so stupid players >decide to save the game. They sit down around a big table and draw up a >plan for the immediate deactivation and eventual destruction of all atomic >weapons. Why stop there? Conventional bombs are unnecessarily destructive >if nobody has them hein? Let's turn back the war clock back to >1917: > > Keep the home fires burning Though the hearts are >yearning > >There's a long, long trail awinding ... Back to the American Civil >War... > > "He has loosed the fatal lightning of this terrible swift sword." His >fatal lightning didn't cost as much in those days. >Save a lot on the defence budget this way on back to flintlocks, >matchlocks, swords, armour, lances, bows and arrows, >spears, stone axes and clubs. Why stop there? Why not grow teeth and claws, >poison fangs, stingers, spines, quills, >beaks and suckers and stink glands and fight in out in the muck hein? >That is what this revolution is about. End of game. New games? There are no >new games from here to eternity. >END OF THE WAR GAME." > >that's right, Assjack, William S. Burroughs called it GAME OVER. >Michael Korcok > >"This is what you wanted to hear, so why >Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers >It is true, but underneath the talk lies >The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose >Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." > >John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jackattack7 Mon May 5 18:46:03 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:46:03 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] ans korcok's amnesia: "laissez loot" Message-ID: fine mesh w the klemz CP planks 1, 2, and 3: http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1312 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From fharriso Mon May 5 20:11:12 2003 From: fharriso (Harrison, Frank) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:11:12 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Annual Meeting Message-ID: <650F170108F10C4D9E2B08AFCEF92CE73AC4AE@its-tarrant.trinity.local> Dear Colleague: Last year, I was able to put together a list of potential attendees prior to the meeting, and it turned out to be helpful for planning purposes. I'd like to do so again this year. To that end, I'd be grateful if anyone who is thinking of attending would drop me a line. Thanks, Frank Harrison ADA President From epmr Mon May 5 20:18:06 2003 From: epmr (Michael Roston the eminently practical) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 03:18:06 +0200 Subject: [eDebate] ans Shuman Message-ID: <1052183886.3eb70d4e851d9@www.omnimail.sm> Shuman writes: "Why those decisions should circumscribe our judgement about what ought to happen NOW is not entirely clear to me. Could you justify this, please?" Tell me this: neocons loves to analogize the responsibility of the US during WW2 with the responsibility we had to oust Saddam. Do you think that Franklin Delano Roosevelt would have kept a Secretary of War on board in his war-era administration who had publicly exchanged a handshake with Hitler and Tojo? Clearly, the answer is no: FDR was smart enough to realize that American ignorance of Japan's military conquests and Europe's appeasement of Hitler required a new team. We're not simply dealing with history here. We're dealing with a team that were the architects of our Nixon-initiated "engage the Shah at all cost" policies of the 70s, until we had an Iran that hated us. We're dealing with a team that then devised our "engage Saddam at all costs" policy which is directly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands during the Iran-Iraq war and other intervening periods. I won't blame the US for post-Gulf War oppression of the Iraqi people, but Donald Rumsfeld gave the big thumbs up 20 years ago to a guy who put his visage on the face of every watch so that when his people asked what time it was, they knew the answer would be "Saddam's time." US foreign policy toward the Islamic world is like a circus. Here in the first ring, we have the Shah and his Savak garnering the ill will of the crowd - they all have tomatoes to throw. Over in the second ring, Saddam and his killer klowns are getting back into a VW bug and driving away. But really, we've lost interest in those two rings. What show will come in the third ring? Musharaff selling uranium enrichment technology to Iran and North Korea like so many bags of peanuts and cotton candy while most of the crowd looks the other way? Saudi Arabia demonstrating its swordsmanship by beheading a woman who dares to show her ankles? This will all occur while over in the sideshow, a hypnotist will be interrogating some 14 year olds from Afghanistan and the Pentagon's translation department looks for homosexuals to evict from the fairgrounds. There may also be some people of Arab origin detained in the petting zoo for the kids. But most importantly, will the same ringleaders be cracking the whip when all this madness blows back upon us? Right now, the answer appears to be yes. We're not simply dealing with unfortunate facts of history here; we're dealing with a foreign policy team that has been the architect of almost every unfortunate situation we've found ourselves in over the past three decades. And I'm really looking forward to a lifetime of cleaning up the messes that they're creating all over again. -- Michael Roston -what was your name, anyway? "Multinational life is cheap Soldiers, workers, maggots meat Get on up, protest right And use collateral damage at a legitimate target" -Primal Scream ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attiva la tua mail gratuita con Omnimail all'indirizzo http://www.omnimail.sm Il servizio ? offerto da Intelcom San Marino S.p.a. http://www.intelcom.sm From hansonjb Mon May 5 20:48:33 2003 From: hansonjb (Jim Hanson) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:48:33 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] draft of the ndt ranking report up Message-ID: <092d01c31371$9ad0c030$1304070a@whitman.edu> hi the final ndt ranking report is now up at: http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/ndt/03main.htm I will be finishing it tomorrow (tues) nite or wed afternoon. so, I'll take any final fixes before I finish it and begin mailing it out and posting the final version. jim hanson :) hansonjb at whitman.edu From tshuman Mon May 5 22:05:41 2003 From: tshuman (Terrance Shuman) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:05:41 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Shuman In-Reply-To: <1052183886.3eb70d4e851d9@www.omnimail.sm> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030505214152.00a2db10@mail.magiccablepc.com> De-cloaking again, briefly... At 03:18 AM 5/6/2003 +0200, Michael Roston wrote: >Tell me this: neocons loves to analogize Hi, Michael. For openers, I'm no "neocon" (whatever you think that means). I'm a conservative, and have been one for about 35 years. I know that "neocon" is a popular liberal shibboleth at the moment, but kindly include me out of that group...and work on your subject/verb agreement homework, eh? ;-) >We're not simply dealing with history here. We're dealing with a team >that were the >architects of our Nixon-initiated "engage the Shah at all cost" policies >of the 70s, until we >had an Iran that hated us. We're dealing with a team that then devised >our "engage Saddam at >all costs" policy which is directly responsible for the death of hundreds >of thousands during >the Iran-Iraq war and other intervening periods. Again, I'm trying hard to grasp your point here. Are you saying that, because we've erred in the past (assuming your view of things is the correct one), we shouldn't try to pursue our interests in the region in the present? How does that follow? We got rid of the butcher Saddam. Doesn't that count for anything here? There isn't any credible indication that Iraqis generally hold our previous support for him against us now. You leftists are mighty tough to please, you know? If the U.S. *consistently* props up corrupt dictators for what it perceives to be sound geopolitical reasons (as every American President must), you're pissed off. Then, when we decide we've had enough of a particularly noxious one who poses a significant threat to world peace, and get rid of him, you're STILL pissed off. Short of going back to 1781 and starting over, is there ANY conservative foreign policy that would meet with your approval? I mean, it is us conservatives who are usually accused of wanting to turn back the clock, eh? ;-) >What show will come in the third ring? Musharaff selling uranium >enrichment technology to Iran and North Korea like so >many bags of peanuts and cotton candy while most of the crowd looks the >other way? Unlikely. And it doesn't say much for your argument that you have to spin such fantasies to support your criticism of what we are doing NOW. What, precisely, is your objection to the liberation of Iraq? >Saudi Arabia demonstrating its swordsmanship by beheading a woman who >dares to show her ankles? It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if we decided to put an end to the House of Saud's reign of terror, either, but if the Bush Administration were to pursue such a policy I'm sure you'd come up with a million reasons why it was a bad idea. I can hear it now: "How dare we take military action against the Saudis after propping up their corrupt regime all those years?" >But most importantly, will the same ringleaders be cracking the whip when >all this madness >blows back upon us? Right now, the answer appears to be yes. Ah, yes, "blowback." That's another one of those popular buzzwords. Presumably, we should NEVER act in our national interest for fear of "blowback." Is that your point? Be nice to know if it was... >And I'm really looking forward to a lifetime >of cleaning up the messes that they're creating all over again. Trust me, Michael, I'm pretty sure they're not going to draft you... ;-) But, in the meantime, can you explain why a free Iraq is a "mess," while leaving Saddam in place to threaten the entire Middle East and beyond is not? Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and...well, not so tall as I used to be, Terrance Shuman Bishop LeBlond Memorial High School St. Joseph, Missouri From mmk_savant Tue May 6 00:21:00 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:21:00 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans gang of fools Message-ID: what garbage. a bunch of disgraced left-wing appeasers of Saddam Hussein doing a furtive shimmy-shuffle trying to explain why it is that they advocated leaving the worst dictator of the late 20th century in power. the PERM: acknowledge that substantial mistakes were made in the past by every United States administration for the past 230 years and by every other government in the world for the past 5,000 years AND acknowledge that the Bush Administration did the right thing by sending the US military to liberate Iraq AND acknowledge that you all embarrassed yourselves by opposing that decision. this picture answers your "arguments". anything else? Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/1451bf5e/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 33906 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/1451bf5e/attachment.obj From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 6 00:46:25 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:46:25 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Counterplans for Korcok (the little dictator who couldn't) Message-ID: one upon a time there was a dictator who ruled millions of people. he did some nice things people liked such as funding public skools and talking about patriotic ideals. but mostly he did really mean things that almost no one liked such as imprisoning, interrogating, and killing people without trial, and starting wars, things done solely to perserve his national tyranny (though he made pretty speeches about how they were done for his people's own good). you might call this dictator lincoln or mussolini, but for now let's call this dictator saddam. lots of faraway business-people and politicians liked saddam. they visited his palaces and traded bear-hugs with him and exchanged billions of dollars with him and helped him fight his wars. they said they were doing all this because of something called 'interests', which is a funny word for money made by oil and guns. and though saddam started using barbaric weapons against hundreds of thousands of people, including entire villages of civilians, and though saddam would meet with the faraway politicians to talk about how 'misunderstood' he was in the media (which we all know is full of liberals), nothing much changed about these 'interests' at all, and the hand-shakes and loans and genocide continued. but then saddam invaded a country ruled by rich men that these faraway politicians happen to like, and after months of bribes (called 'UN diplomacy') it was determined that this was against the 'interests'. it seemed that this little dictator, like so many dictators before him, wanted to be a bigger dictator, and the 'interests' would rather he stick to killing communist-sympathizers and other insignificant people. the armies of the 'interests' not only cut off all trading with saddam's people, and not only repelled him from the invaded country they happen to like, but they also bombed saddam's army to smitherines and destroyed roads, power generators, and water treatment facilities in the process. over 20,000 of the people saddam was oppressing died of water-born diseases alone, though we don't know how many died from the bombs themselves, we do know that thousands and thousands of innocent people were murdered in mass. then the main army of the 'interests' encouraged people from saddam's country who wanted to overthrow him, and though the main army promised to help them, they never came through, and thousands more died at the hands of saddam. and years and years passed in which almost a million of the oppressed died from famine caused by the blockage, but the 'interests' didn't care. suddenly something happened to one of the main countries in the armies of the 'interests' which gave them a blank check to invade any country they pleased, and so they choose to topple saddam - though it took awhile because this main country had to start up another round of bribes and had to pretend that the invasion was 'up in the air' when really the decision 'had already been made'. and a month after it began, the war was over, and that main country which once helped saddam now occupies his former country and talks constantly of 'liberation' (even though they never helped those people who were going to overthrow saddam to do so). now Shumyn asks: "Yes, at one point ... in history we preferred Iraq over Iran in that war, etc. Why those decisions should circumscribe our judgement about what ought to happen NOW is not entirely clear to me. Could you justify this, please?" but the people formerly oppressed by saddam are asking, 'if it was once in the 'interests' to support a dictator who tortured and butchered us, what's changed?' after all, there's been no apology, and no change of heart, and many dictators are still helped out by the armies of the 'intetersts'. so its not a matter of the ancient past: its a matter of facing up to one's past and learning from it; and its not a matter of 'dirty hands never being able to do good work': its a matter of whether these hands have been washed at all - its a matter of method (not rhetoric), and its a matter of trust. .k _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mmk_savant Tue May 6 00:48:42 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:48:42 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Klemz Message-ID: prove it. that is, provide EVIDENCE and WARRANTS for your claims. claims like: if the US had disarmed, then there wouldn't have been WMDs. (you know, as opposed to the Soviet Union and China would have taken over the planet, eh, comrade?) the US government and the CIA were ("primarily"!!!) responsible for Hussein's rise to power. (as opposed to having funded assassination attempt(s) on him before he took power, being almost entirely superfluous to his rise in power, etc) US energy sufficiency (with "re-newables" no less!!!) policies would have made the Middle East less autocratic. (as opposed to much poorer, more detached from US interests and thus firmly Soviet and/or fundamentalist) finally, provide EVIDENCE and WARRANTS for your claim that: "Combined, these policies would have prevented the rise to power of the Baathists, undercut the economic engine that drives the dictatorships and destroys any hope for democratic reforms, and provided crucial support for international regimes that could have prevented the development and acquisition of these weapons in the first place." not only are none of your CLAIMS obviously the case, but they seem to me to be twisted conclusions of ideology and shame rather than of considered judgement. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030505/6b7cde5b/attachment.htm From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 6 01:02:10 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:02:10 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Shuman Message-ID: Shumyn: "It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if we decided to put an end to the House of Saud's reign of terror, either..." but if they had a vote tomorrow, you know they'd elect a government opposed to 'our national interest', which is all you're really about, and all i'm saying is leave the word 'liberation' out of it and admit that you'd just like to save a few bucks at the pump. .k ... (i can hear the response bubbling in your brain already, 'this wasn't a war for oil, because if we'd have wanted iraqi oil, we would've just lifted the sanctions', but (a) that would eliminate the need for a war, and that's what those defense contractors get paid for, and more importantly (b) the first rule of imperialism is 'divide and conquer': saddam sought to control more than his allotted share of arab oil and when you're the world's cops on the middle east beat, you need to send the strong message that 'shoplifters will be prosecuted' - 'liberation' and 'disarmament' and 'national security threats' are just bovine nationalist swindles, which both liberals and conservatives have bought rental.) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 6 01:17:43 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 01:17:43 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans gang of fools Message-ID: Korcok has failed to provide 'EVIDENCE' or 'WARRANTS' that if the USA had trained/armed/funded the opposition forces that this would've caused a catastrophe worse than Saddam Hussien's brutal rule. Korcok has continually 'shimmy-shuffled' out of his support for civilian-massacring sanctions as well as his refusal to criticize those conservatives who've defended supporting Saddam throughout the 80s (namely, Duane Hyland). furthermore, Korcok offers no criticism of the Bush administration for not accepting his 'PERM', seeing as there's been no acknowledgement of 'substantial mistakes' committed due to complicity with dictatorships like Hussien's. again i politely plead with Korcok to stop for his own good - you're embarrassing yourself, and you're taking time away from all the flags you could be waving at innocent bystanders. anything else? .k p.s. by the way, you do know that protest sign picture was doctored? (i'm sure you do, but you scare me so often that i figured i'd check just to be positive.) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mmk_savant Tue May 6 02:09:22 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:09:22 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: 1) i never claimed that our support for opposition groups (your counterplan) would have caused more harm than Saddam Hussein did. i argued that our support for opposition groups wouldn't have toppled Hussein (and evidenced it), so wouldn't have solved like liberation did. i also argued that your counterplan would have likely caused more casualties than the liberation caused and the warrant was also evidenced: Hussein would have counter-attacked and without US troops to protect the opposition groups, it would have been a replay of the massacres of '88 and '92. you have yet to provide A SINGLE CARD as evidence that your counterplan, whatever it is today, would have WORKED to get rid of Hussein, much less that it would have done so with FEWER casualties. NOT ONE CARD. 2) i have not written recently about sanctions. they are nonsequiter to whether or not the US should have attacked Iraq militarily. other than the war of liberation will result in the sanctions being lifted without the disads that lifting the sanctions would have caused otherwise. i have no problem defending the sanctions, however. Kevin, PROVE that 1 million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions. and yes, i know those "cards" exist. but you will have to do much better than that for this debate. 2 things you need to do before we start: a) argue that the sanctions were responsible rather than Saddam and Sons' refusal to comply with the UN resolutions which triggered the sanctions as enforcement b) provide accurate pre-sanction birth and mortality rates, provide accurate post-sanction birth and mortality rates, and explain how it was that once the anti-sanctions argument began to be made, the pre-sanctions birth rate estimates for Iraq rose substantially and the pre-sanctions mortality rate estimates for Iraq dropped precipitously. you know, compare EVERY 1980-1996 UN and other estimate of Iraqi birth and mortality rates to the estimates of Iraqi birth and mortality rates offered by the anti-sanctions crowd and EXPLAIN how those numbers became magically transformed. OH! and kindly jump on Klemz's nuts for advocating that the US should have become energy independent in the 1970s to substantially curtail our imports of Iraqi oil. you DO understand that would have been the SAME as economic sanctions on Iraq only 15 years EARLIER and PERMANENTLY, right? go get him tiger! grrrrrr... 3) because the administration doesn't read this list. i am also not demanding that Susan Sarandon or Jeanine Garafalo admit they were idiotic. because they don't read this list either. and if they do, then i want to mention that although i thought she was EXCELLENT in Atlantic City, Sarandon doesn't hold a candle to Jody Foster. 4) no, that picture was NOT doctored. i took it myself. and yes, that IS you in the back holding the "i hate my father" placard. you are a lousy son. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030506/3da22369/attachment.html From epmr Tue May 6 08:55:17 2003 From: epmr (Michael Roston the eminently practical) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:55:17 +0200 Subject: [eDebate] back at Shuman Message-ID: <1052229317.3eb7bec51b975@www.omnimail.sm> "I'm a conservative, and have been one for about 35 years. I know that "neocon" is a popular liberal shibboleth at the moment, but kindly include me out of that group" I'm sorry - I shouldn't have used the term, and someone like Donald Rumsfeld has been committing acts of terror for so long that it's a misnomer to say there is anything "neo" about him. Let's go back to my argument here, and maybe instead of splitting hairs with me over terminology, you'll answer it this time: many defenders of the military intervention in Iraq have analogized our overthrow of Saddam to our destruction of Hitler's Nazi regime. Would FDR or Churchill have kept anyone on their foreign policy and war-planning teams who 20 years before had publicly declared their support for Hitler, going as far as to very publicly shake hands with them? "If the U.S. *consistently* props up corrupt dictators for what it perceives to be sound geopolitical reasons (as every American President must), you're pissed off." Why do you feel empowered to so blithely declare something to be "sound geopolitical reasons" when it includes the use of chemical weapons in warfare, the use of chemical weapons against civilian populations, the use of harsh military force against civilian populations, the use of ethnic cleansing? We're not talking about looking the other way while the President of Bolivia dines on prime rib every night and his people starve. We're talking the mass destruction of lives, and every inch of American power knows about it, and no one does a damn thing to stop it, and instead repeatedly gives its tacit approval. You're right I'm pissed off whenever any American president looks the other way, pretends that a foreign government hasn't committed horrible atrocities, and shoots down every effort that other states take to hold that foreign government accountable in a variety of fora. That's not called the pursuit of sound gepolitical reasons - that's called endorsing every war crime in the book for 20 years. That says that Kurdish people, Iraqi Shi'ite people, Iraqi Marsh Arab people, and Iraqi Sunnis who don't tow the line are less important than the handful of Americans whose lives are ever touched by the pursuit of those sound geopolitical reasons you so graciously whitewash. You're "conservative" policy wholeheartedly endorses crimes against humanity for the pursuit of "sound geopolitical interests." And while we're at it, stop lumping me in with "leftist" or "liberal" foreign policy. I've harshly criticized the Clinton-era "fuck and bomb" policy on repeated occasions. "Unlikely. And it doesn't say much for your argument that you have to spin such fantasies to support your criticism of what we are doing NOW." What's so unlikely? I'm sorry if St. Joseph is a long way from Islamabad, but I'm telling you in my professional opinion as an analyst of WMD proliferation that Pakistan traded uranium enrichment technology to the government of North Korea for ballistic missile technology. The Bush administration has looked the other way the entire time. We're still not sure if they did the same thing in Iran. In our pursuit of "sound geopolitical interests" we're creating new and more terrific dangers for ourselves. I'm not constructing any fantasies here; your "conservative" foreign policy is narcotized, asleep, and dreaming. "What, precisely, is your objection to the liberation of Iraq?" Actually, I've always been in favor of the the liberation of Iraq. What, precisely, was the objection to the liberation of Iraq by Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 when he shook Saddam Hussein's hand? What, precisely, was the objection to the liberation of Kurdish and Shi'ite peoples from Saddam's reign of terror in 1991 when GHW Bush failed to sponsor their uprising? What, precisely, was the objection to the liberation of Iraq in 2001 when the Bush administration came to power? What, precisely, will be your objection to the liberation of the Kurdish people from the fiction of Iraq when they decide that the effective sharing of power with Shi'ite and Sunni peoples of Iraq is impossible? What, precisely, will be your objection to the liberation of the Shi'ite people from the fiction of a centrally-administered Iraq when they decide they don't want a modern constitutional democracy, or that they don't want a Sunni in Baghdad telling them how to order their lives? What, precisely, will be your objection to the liberation of Iraq from administration by handpicked authorities by the American military that none of the Iraqi people support? "It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if we decided to put an end to the House of Saud's reign of terror, either, but if the Bush Administration were to pursue such a policy I'm sure you'd come up with a million reasons why it was a bad idea. I can hear it now: "How dare we take military action against the Saudis after propping up their corrupt regime all those years?"" Actually, my calls for an end to the House of Saud have been made very publicly on this list. Sorry if you feel like you need to group me into "leftist" foreign policy. I want our diplomatic approach to be at least as smart as our bombs. Right now, it's about as intelligent as a ballpeen hammer. I'm not sure we're at the point yet where military force against Saudi Arabia has to be imagined. Meanwhile, we continue to train the Saudi military to be more and more lethal, continue to sell them powerful technology that makes their military more and more capable of menacing their neighbors, make no plans to "liberate" the advanced military infrastructure we've built them over the past ten years despite the fact that we're pulling out, and do nothing to bring oppobrium on their destructive authoritarian rule. We look the other way while they build silos for ballistic-missiles they acquire from the Chinese, while they look for fleeing Iraqi WMD scientists to hire, while they secretly construct their own nuclear weapons program for the day when their political convulsion goes down. I'm not making anything up here. Does this sound familiar yet? Do you understand now why letting the same people who shake Saddam's hand in 1983 dictate our foreign policy toward the Islamic world in 2003 is a disaster in the making? The "conservative" foreign policy you endorse is rapidly adding a third ring to the circus. "But, in the meantime, can you explain why a free Iraq is a "mess," while leaving Saddam in place to threaten the entire Middle East and beyond is not?" Containment worked. the idea that Saddam was threatening the Middle East is a joke, and amply proven by the rapid destruction of his regime and military. The Kurdish third of Iraq has been effectively "free" for the past ten years, and the Shi'ite section would have been, too, if we had wanted it to be. Instead, we've got a brand new colony that we'll be administering for decades, carefully selecting its leadership over and over again so it serves our interests, and setting up the ruin of anyone who seeks to pursue a vision of Iraq that differs from the one that's popular in the Pentagon. that's the mess that I look forward to. -- Michael Roston -what was your name, anyway? "Multinational life is cheap Soldiers, workers, maggots meat Get on up, protest right And use collateral damage at a legitimate target" -Primal Scream ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attiva la tua mail gratuita con Omnimail all'indirizzo http://www.omnimail.sm Il servizio ? offerto da Intelcom San Marino S.p.a. http://www.intelcom.sm From ccooper Tue May 6 09:08:07 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:08:07 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Korcok Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A73370711430EB@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Korcok adopts Dubya's "the devil made me do it" logic: "a) argue that the sanctions were responsible rather than Saddam and Sons' refusal to comply with the UN resolutions which triggered the sanctions as enforcement" So if I put a gun to your head, Mikey, and say "stop breying like a jackass or I'll shoot!" And you respond with your standard whinny and I pop a cap in your (tiny) skull. Can I safely say that the whole thing was YOUR fault? COOP (oh...and have you conceeded my counterplan?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030506/e5af026c/attachment.htm From wnewnam Tue May 6 09:20:11 2003 From: wnewnam (Bill Newnam) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:20:11 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] back at Shuman References: <1052229317.3eb7bec51b975@www.omnimail.sm> Message-ID: <3EB7C49B.C7899F70@emory.edu> "Michael Roston (the eminently practical)" wrote: > > Let's go back to my argument here, and maybe instead of splitting hairs with me > over terminology, you'll answer it this time: many defenders of the military intervention in > Iraq have analogized our overthrow of Saddam to our destruction of Hitler's Nazi regime. > Would FDR or Churchill have kept anyone on their foreign policy and war-planning teams who 20 > years before had publicly declared their support for Hitler, going as far as to very publicly > shake hands with them? This just sort of reminds me, Did you know that FDR shut down an industrial coke industry owned by Prescott Bush, George H.'s dad and former moderate republican senator for violation of the Trading With the Enemy Act? Seems Prescott and his partner were selling industrial services and products to Nazi Germany until Roosevelt shut them down in 1943. bill n emory From dsrader Tue May 6 11:29:43 2003 From: dsrader (Doyle Srader) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:29:43 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] back at Shuman Message-ID: A little perspective on Bill's charge. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html And I sure ain't no Bush family fan. Doyle Srader Lecturer, Speech Communication Stephen F. Austin State University http://titan.sfasu.edu/~f_sraderdw/ From mmk_savant Tue May 6 12:59:38 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:59:38 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper Message-ID: jeez you are just pitiful at this arguing thing. Cooperthunkin doesn't appear to function well for "debating". i thought that you would be the first to GROOVE on requirement a). it was you, after all that argued that as long as you didn't pull the trigger, even though the GUARANTEED outcome of your decision not to do so would be that Saddam murdered all 10 other prisoners, that YOU would still be morally pure. so square it, Cooper. why is the United States to blame for any sanctions hardship? Saddam said to the US: buy the state oil of Iraq and fund my military/WMD/regime or Iraqi citizens will suffer. the US refused to buy. Saddam and Sons made Iraqi citizens suffer. Cooperthunkin sure appears to me to conclude that the blood isn't on our hands. that was the point of my argument. forcing Sanchez to explicate a "theory" of moral responsibility which would allow him to "blame" the US. i don't think he can stomach any such "theory". just like Cooperthunkin can't do it either. i, however, have no problem with a view of moral responsibility which could assign partial responsibility to the US for the effects of sanctions: it would necessarily include important consequentialist components. and that will/would SUCK for both you and Sanchez. oh and i most certainly did not concede your counterplan. in fact, i mocked it. surely you are not so far gone that you think "support democracy" and "support international law" are anything but vague nonsense? and STILL NOT ONE CARD that this, whatever it is, would have done JACK to get rid of Saddam and Sons. and PLEASE, if you think that 4 cards about how non-lethal weapons are being developed does SQUAT to show that Cooper's Troopers is anything except nonsense, then you are done. thanks for playing, Michael Korcok _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From wnewnam Tue May 6 14:16:53 2003 From: wnewnam (Bill Newnam) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:16:53 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] back at Shuman References: Message-ID: <3EB80A25.8A54FDA@emory.edu> I will concede to Doyle that the Prescott challenges are a bit of a cheap shot, but if you look carefully, there is no doubt that he invested in Nazi Germany. The article Doyle cites admits this and includes the age-old disclaimer that "everybody's doing it" by noting that Americans frequently invest in totalitarian governments so its okay. "Prescott's involvement with Nazi finance is more complicated. Though Thyssen had been an ardent backer of the Nazis in the early days, he broke with them in 1938 after the Kristallnacht pogrom against the Jews. He fled to Switzerland the following year, and Hitler confiscated his fortune and stripped him of his citizenship. In I Paid Hitler Thyssen confessed his role in financing the Nazis and denounced the F?hrer. Arrested in Vichy France, he spent the balance of the war as an Axis prisoner. Prescott Bush, for his part, owned a single share of stock (of 4,000) in UBC, the Thyssen bank. According to a 2001 Boston Globe piece, the New York Herald Tribune ran a story in July 1942 headlined "Hitler's Angel Has 3 Million in US Bank," in which Prescott and other BBH partners "explain[ed] to government regulators that their position [as directors of UBC] was merely an unpaid courtesy for a client." "So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes--witness our dealings with mainland China." The same of course is true of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and bin Laden in recent years: 1. George the H is a chief investor in Carlyle Group, one of the largest and wealthiest companies on earth, but curiously not available as a public investment since it is privately held, accountable only to its very select and wealthy investors. Bush the H is also principally responsible, according to some sources, for overseeing Carlyle's investments with the House of Saud, not exactly the most liberal governing democracy on the planet. 2. James Baker's law firm, Baker and Potts, recently agreed to represent the House of Saud against the family of 911 victims in their suit (similar to the one recently settled against Libya) alleging their complicity in the World Trade Center Attacks. 3. The Carlyle Group once included (relatively) modest investments by the bin Laden family and while the bin Laden family was asked to disinvest following September 11, Carlyle has continued to contract with the bin Laden Construction firm, some of which is owned by Osama bin Laden, despite attempts to paint a moderate picture of the bin Laden business family. (It will be interesting to see if Bechtel and Halliburton subcontract with the bin Laden family for Iraqi reconstruction when they get around to awarding subcontracts for the enormous open-ended contracts recently awarded to those firms without competitive bidding.) 4. Halliburton, the same one formerly chaired by CEO and current vice-president Dick Cheney, also contracted as recently as 1998 (when Cheney was CEO) for oil production services with the same Saddam Hussein that Cheney pushed so hard to overthrow. This seems like a little bit more of a direct finance of the Hussein regime than Hitler's. but hey, Cheney was only the CEO, what should he know? So, I guess its okay to do business with totalitarian regimes no matter how evil and dangerous you might think they are since "American business (including the Bush and Cheney family) has always invested in totalitarian regimes." I guess when it comes to business, hypocrisy takes a back seat to profit. Me, I' m glad to see Bush has restored honesty and integrity to the White House just like he promised. bill n emory Doyle Srader wrote: > A little perspective on Bill's charge. > > http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html > > And I sure ain't no Bush family fan. > > Doyle Srader > Lecturer, Speech Communication > Stephen F. Austin State University > http://titan.sfasu.edu/~f_sraderdw/ > > _______________________________________________ > eDebate mailing list > eDebate at ndtceda.com > To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: > http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate From ccooper Tue May 6 14:38:49 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:38:49 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Korcok Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143100@exm01w.apac.planning.org> That's it? Really? Is that all you got, Mikey? "Promote democracy and support international law" are "vague nonsense." THAT's your best argument? Do you want some help? No really...I think you need some help. Terrance? Duane? Someone tag Mikey and get him out of the ring before he gets hurt. 1st...the Counterplan. You keep taking one component (like "democracy promotion") and jumping up and down, braying "nnnnyyoohhh solvency...nnnnyoooohhh solvency!" while ignoring the other components. You keep asking for "cards" as if you're incapable of your own scholarship. Are you? Do you need someone else to do it for you? I even indulge you by giving you some ev. on non-lethal weapons being effective in just these situations and you stomp and whinny "nnnnnnyyonsense! nnnnnyonsense!" Let me ask you something: Is it REALLY your claim that there was NO better way to do this dog-and-pony than to hoodwink the American people through a series of lies and distortions to support a (virtually) unilateral occupation of Iraq obtained through the carpet-bombing of its people? 2nd...this little sanctions aside: If you think your tiny little brain can hold it all, I'll explain to you how sanctions work. It is not that Saddam damanded that the US fund Iraqi WMD, etc. by buying Iraqi oil. Sanctions prevent individual Iraqis from purchasing things like chlorine for water purification plants and medicines to treat the various diseases that result from drinking contaminated water. Sanctions say...we no SELL to you cause you BOSS an asshole! You get rid of him and maybe we talk. But you're right. It's not the U.S. that killed the Iraqi children...it's the dissentary. Now think hard. Focus. I'm going to say something now and it's a little complicated. "We are morally culpable for failing to act when it does not violate morality. We are morally culpable for acting when it does." Can you follow that? No? Well...dump something useless...like all that Bush Tax Plan propoganda and maybe the thought will fit. But I make no promises...it's a big thought. COOP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030506/36f20bfc/attachment.html From richarddebate Tue May 6 15:57:06 2003 From: richarddebate (Rich debate) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] JOSH Clark.. please backchannel me.. In-Reply-To: <20030506160001.3506.72539.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <20030506205706.42062.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Josh Clark could you please backchannel me and email me at richarddebate at yahoo.com thanks rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From richarddebate Tue May 6 16:02:30 2003 From: richarddebate (Rich debate) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Who is Jason Giffard In-Reply-To: <20030506160001.3506.72539.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <20030506210230.43399.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Simply put who is jason giffard. thanks rich planningperson at lycos.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From jackattack7 Tue May 6 16:18:43 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:18:43 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] 1AC: hitler's angel -- nazi bush gang of fools Message-ID: the following is the affirmative case for the historical links between the bush dynasty and the nazi party. the problem to be addressed is korcokian historical amnesia. the introductory quote has the bush apologists swimming upstream from Robert Lederman who has had one of his articles on this subject published in The Boston Globe: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/011801/sl.slant.shtml "For those who scoff at the validity of comparing the Bush administration to the Nazis and IG Farben, please note that I?m not suggesting that Bush is a literal Nazi nor am I implying that everyone who is an oil or pharmaceutical company executive automatically deserves to be linked to IG Farben. That the Bush wealth and prominence in American politics is derived from Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker?s support of Hitler is a historical fact." Contention One: The Initial Links Grandfather Prescott Bush and Great-Grandfather Herbert Walker played a major role in pulling the purse strings that got the Nazi party financially off the ground. The two bloodlines that created our worst two presidents are responsible for having sold over $50 million in German bonds to the American people that directly helped to jump start the Nazi Party via the young fervernt Nazi, Fritz Thyssen. Nick Mamatas summarized the evidence on July 28, 2002. http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id195/pg1/ quote "G.W.'s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, were among the chief American fundraisers for Germany's Nazi Party. Through industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Bush-run Union Banking Company and W. A. Harriman & Company, the Bushes sold over $50 million in German bonds to American investors, starting in 1924. Thyssen in turn pumped money into the infant Nazi Party, which had proved its desire to rule and its willingness to use brute force in 1923's Munich Beer Hall Putsch."unquote We should review how the major funders of the Nazis, the Thyssen family, started the laundering scheme that would have the Bush family hide Nazi profits in "their" Union Banking Corporation and eventually launder the millions into appropriate American corporations. Attorney John Loftus, Former US Dept of Justice Nazi War CrimesProsecutor, President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and author of The Secret War Against the Jews, explained the forgotten history on September 27, 2000: http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html quote: "After reading the excerpt in my book about the Bush's ownership of the Holland-American trading Company, retired US intelligence agent William Gowen began to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Mr. Gowen knew every c orner of Europe from his days as a diplomat's son, an American intelligence agent, and a newspaperman. William Gowen deserves sole credit for uncovering the mystery of how the Nazi industrialists hid their money from the Allies at the end of World War II. In 1999, Mr. Gowen traveled to Europe, at his own expense, to meet a former member of Dutch intelligence who had detailed inside information about the Rotterdam bank. The scrupulous Gowen took a written statement and then had his source read and correct it for error. Here, in summary form, is how the Nazis hid their money in America. After World War I, August Thyssen had been badly burned by the loss of assets under the harsh terms of the Versailles treaty. He was determined that it would never happen again. One of his sons would join the Nazis; the other would be neutral. No matter who won the next war, the Thyssen family would survive with their industrial empire intact. Fritz Thyssen joined the Nazis in 1923; his younger brother married into Hungarian nobility and changed his name to Baron Thyssen-Bornemisza. The Baron later claimed Hungarian as well as Dutch citizenship. In public, he pretended to detest his Nazi brother, but in private they met at secret board meetings in Germany to coordinate their operations. If one brother were threatened with loss of property, he would transfer his holdings to the other. To aid his sons in their shell game, August Thyssen had established three different banks during the 1920's -- The August Thyssen Bank in Berlin, the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, and the Union Banking Corporation in New York City. To protect their corporate holdings, all the brothers had to do was move the corporate paperwork from one bank to the other. This they did with some regularity. When Fritz Thyssen "sold" the Holland-American Trading Company for a tax loss, the Union Banking Corporation in New York bought the stock. Similarly, the Bush family invested the disguised Nazi profits in American steel and manufacturing corporations that became part of the secret Thyssen empire." unquote Another version of the same story is told by Toby Rogers in his Clamor Magazine article entitled "Heir to Hitler". http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.2.html quote: "Railroad baron E.H. Harriman's son Averell wanted nothing to do with railroads, so his father gave him an investment firm, W.A. Harriman & Company in New York City. E.H. hired the most qualified person in the country to run the operation, George Herbert Walker. Averell hired his little brother Edward Roland "Bunny" Harriman as a vice president. By 1920, George Herbert Walker had already built a fortune in Missouri. Walker, a charismatic former heavyweight boxing champion, was a human pit bull. He lived life to the fullest, owning mansions around the east coast and one of the most extravagant apartments in Manhattan. His hobbies were golf, hunting, drinking scotch and beating his sons to a pulp. Elsie Walker, one of Walker's grandchildren described Walker as a "tough old bastard" whose children had no love "for their father." He was also a religious bigot who hated Catholics, although his parents raised him to be one. According to other sources, he also did not like Jews. In 1922, Averell Harriman traveled to Germany to set up a W.A. Harriman & Co. branch in Berlin. The Berlin branch was also run by Walker. While in Germany, he met with the Thyssen family for the first time. Harriman agreed to help the Thyssens with their plan for an American bank. The following year, a wounded Germany was growing sicker. The government had no solution and froze while Germany rotted from within. With widespread strikes and production at a near standstill, Fritz Thyssen later recalled, "We were at the worst time of the inflation. In Berlin the government was in distress. It was ruined financially. Authority was crumbling. In Saxony a communist government had been formed and the Red terror, organized by Max Hoelz, reigned through the countryside. The German Reich ... was now about to crumble." In October, 1923, an emotionally desperate Fritz Thyssen went to visit one of his and Germany's great military heroes, General Erich Ludendorff. During the 1918 socialist rule in Berlin, Ludendorff organized a military resistance against the socialists and the industrialists were in great debt to him. When Thyssen met with Ludendorff, they discussed Germany's economic collapse. Thyssen was apocalyptic, fearing the worst was yet to come. Ludendorff disagreed. "There is but one hope," Ludendorff said, "Adolph Hitler and the National Socialist party." Ludendorff respected Hitler immensely. "He is the only man who has any political sense." Ludendorff encouraged Thyssen to join the Nazi movement. "Go listen to him one day" he said to Thyssen. Thyssen followed General Ludendorff's advice and went to a number of meetings to hear Hitler speak. He became mesmerized by Hitler. "I realized his orator gifts and his ability to lead the masses. What impressed me most however was the order that reigned over his meetings, the almost military discipline of his followers." Thyssen arranged to meet privately with Hitler and Ludendorff in Munich. Hitler told Thyssen the Nazi movement was in financial trouble, it was not growing fast enough and was nationally irrelevant. Hitler needed as much money as possible to fight off the Communists/Jewish conspiracy against Europe. Hitler envisioned a fascist German monarchy with a nonunion, antilock national work force. Thyssen was overjoyed with the Nazi platform. He gave Hitler and Ludendorff 100,000 gold marks ($25,000) for the infant Nazi party. Others in the steel and coal industries soon followed Thyssen's lead, although none came close to matching him. Many business leaders in Germany supported Hitler's secret union-hating agenda. However, some donated because they feared they would be left out in the cold if he actually ever seized power. Most industry leaders gave up on Hitler after his failed coup in 1923. While Hitler spent a brief time in jail, the Thyssens, through the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, opened the Union Banking Corporation in 1924. Union Banking Corporation Early in 1924, Hendrick J. Kouwenhoven, the managing director of Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, traveled to New York to meet with Walker and the Harriman brothers. Together, they established The Union Banking Corporation. The UBC's headquarters was located at the same 39 Broadway address as Harriman & Co. As the German economy recovered through the mid to late ?20s, Walker and Harriman's firm sold over $50,000,000 worth of German bonds to American investors, who profited enormously from the economic boom in Germany. In 1926, August Thyssen died at the age of 84. Fritz was now in control of one of the largest industrial families in Europe. He quickly created the United Steel Works (USW), the biggest industrial conglomerate in German history. Thyssen hired Albert Volger, one of the Ruhr's most influential industrial directors, as director General of USW. Thyssen also brought Fredich Flick, another German family juggernaut, on board. Flick owned coal and steel industries throughout Germany and Poland and desperately wanted to invest into the Thyssen empire. One of the primary motivations for the Thyssen/Flick massive steel and coal merger was suppressing the new labor and socialist movements. That year in New York, George Walker decided to give his new son in law, Prescott Bush, a big break. Walker made Bush a vice president of Harriman & Co. Prescott's new office employed many of his classmates from his Yale class of 1917, including Roland Harriman and Knight Woolley. The three had been close friends at Yale and were all members of Skull and Bones, the mysterious on-campus secret society. Despite the upbeat fraternity atmosphere at Harriman & Co., it was also a place of hard work, and no one worked harder than Prescott Bush. In fact, Walker hired Bush to help him supervise the new Thyssen/Flick United Steel Works. One section of the USW empire was the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and the Upper Silesian Coal and Steel Company located in the Silesian section of Poland. Thyssen and Flick paid Bush and Walker generously, but it was worth every dime. Their new business arrangement pleased them all financially, and the collective talents of all four men and their rapid success astonished the business world. In the meantime Hitler and the Nazi party were broke. Since the German economic recovery, members and donations had dried up, leaving the Nazi movement withering on the vine. In 1927, Hitler was desperate for cash; his party was slipping into debt. Hitler told his private secretary Rudolf Hess to shake down wealthy coal tycoon and Nazi sympathizer Emil Kirdorf. Kirdorf paid off Hitler's debt that year but the following year, he too had no money left to contribute. In 1928, Hitler had his eyes on the enormous Barlow Palace located in Briennerstrasse, the most aristocratic section of Munich. Hitler wanted to convert the palace into the Nazi national headquarters and change its name to the Brown House but it was out of his price range. Hitler told Hess to contact Thyssen. After hearing the Hess appeal, Thyssen felt it was time to give Hitler a second chance. Through the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, Thyssen said he "placed Hess in possession of the required funds" to purchase and redesign the Palace. Thyssen later said the amount was about 250,000 marks but leading Nazis later claimed that just the re-molding cost over 800,000 marks (equivalent to $2 million today). Regardless of the cost, Hitler and Thyssen became close friends after the purchase of the Brown House. At the time, neither knew how influential that house was to become the following year when, in 1929, the great depression spread around the world. With the German economic recovery up in flames, Hitler knew there was going to be a line out the door of industrialists waiting to give him cash." unquote to be continued... _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ccooper Tue May 6 16:27:40 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:27:40 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Who is Jason Giffard Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143103@exm01w.apac.planning.org> A God among men. That is all you need to know. -----Original Message----- From: Rich debate [mailto:richarddebate at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 5:03 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] Who is Jason Giffard Simply put who is jason giffard. thanks rich planningperson at lycos.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030506/3c145564/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Tue May 6 16:28:30 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:28:30 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] hitler's angel 1AC: nazi bush gang of fools Message-ID: the following is the affirmative case for the historical links between the bush dynasty and the nazi party. the problem to be addressed is korcokian historical amnesia. the introductory quote has the bush apologists swimming upstream from Robert Lederman who has had one of his articles on this subject published in The Boston Globe: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/011801/sl.slant.shtml "For those who scoff at the validity of comparing the Bush administration to the Nazis and IG Farben, please note that I?m not suggesting that Bush is a literal Nazi nor am I implying that everyone who is an oil or pharmaceutical company executive automatically deserves to be linked to IG Farben. That the Bush wealth and prominence in American politics is derived from Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker?s support of Hitler is a historical fact." Contention One: The Initial Links Grandfather Prescott Bush and Great-Grandfather Herbert Walker played a major role in pulling the purse strings that got the Nazi party financially off the ground. The two bloodlines that created our worst two presidents are responsible for having sold over $50 million in German bonds to the American people that directly helped to jump start the Nazi Party via the young fervernt Nazi, Fritz Thyssen. Nick Mamatas summarized the evidence on July 28, 2002. http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id195/pg1/ quote "G.W.'s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, were among the chief American fundraisers for Germany's Nazi Party. Through industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Bush-run Union Banking Company and W. A. Harriman & Company, the Bushes sold over $50 million in German bonds to American investors, starting in 1924. Thyssen in turn pumped money into the infant Nazi Party, which had proved its desire to rule and its willingness to use brute force in 1923's Munich Beer Hall Putsch."unquote We should review how the major funders of the Nazis, the Thyssen family, started the laundering scheme that would have the Bush family hide Nazi profits in "their" Union Banking Corporation and eventually launder the millions into appropriate American corporations. Attorney John Loftus, Former US Dept of Justice Nazi War CrimesProsecutor, President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and author of The Secret War Against the Jews, explained the forgotten history on September 27, 2000: http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html quote: "After reading the excerpt in my book about the Bush's ownership of the Holland-American trading Company, retired US intelligence agent William Gowen began to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Mr. Gowen knew every c orner of Europe from his days as a diplomat's son, an American intelligence agent, and a newspaperman. William Gowen deserves sole credit for uncovering the mystery of how the Nazi industrialists hid their money from the Allies at the end of World War II. In 1999, Mr. Gowen traveled to Europe, at his own expense, to meet a former member of Dutch intelligence who had detailed inside information about the Rotterdam bank. The scrupulous Gowen took a written statement and then had his source read and correct it for error. Here, in summary form, is how the Nazis hid their money in America. After World War I, August Thyssen had been badly burned by the loss of assets under the harsh terms of the Versailles treaty. He was determined that it would never happen again. One of his sons would join the Nazis; the other would be neutral. No matter who won the next war, the Thyssen family would survive with their industrial empire intact. Fritz Thyssen joined the Nazis in 1923; his younger brother married into Hungarian nobility and changed his name to Baron Thyssen-Bornemisza. The Baron later claimed Hungarian as well as Dutch citizenship. In public, he pretended to detest his Nazi brother, but in private they met at secret board meetings in Germany to coordinate their operations. If one brother were threatened with loss of property, he would transfer his holdings to the other. To aid his sons in their shell game, August Thyssen had established three different banks during the 1920's -- The August Thyssen Bank in Berlin, the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, and the Union Banking Corporation in New York City. To protect their corporate holdings, all the brothers had to do was move the corporate paperwork from one bank to the other. This they did with some regularity. When Fritz Thyssen "sold" the Holland-American Trading Company for a tax loss, the Union Banking Corporation in New York bought the stock. Similarly, the Bush family invested the disguised Nazi profits in American steel and manufacturing corporations that became part of the secret Thyssen empire." unquote Another version of the same story is told by Toby Rogers in his Clamor Magazine article entitled "Heir to Hitler". http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.2.html quote: "Railroad baron E.H. Harriman's son Averell wanted nothing to do with railroads, so his father gave him an investment firm, W.A. Harriman & Company in New York City. E.H. hired the most qualified person in the country to run the operation, George Herbert Walker. Averell hired his little brother Edward Roland "Bunny" Harriman as a vice president. By 1920, George Herbert Walker had already built a fortune in Missouri. Walker, a charismatic former heavyweight boxing champion, was a human pit bull. He lived life to the fullest, owning mansions around the east coast and one of the most extravagant apartments in Manhattan. His hobbies were golf, hunting, drinking scotch and beating his sons to a pulp. Elsie Walker, one of Walker's grandchildren described Walker as a "tough old bastard" whose children had no love "for their father." He was also a religious bigot who hated Catholics, although his parents raised him to be one. According to other sources, he also did not like Jews. In 1922, Averell Harriman traveled to Germany to set up a W.A. Harriman & Co. branch in Berlin. The Berlin branch was also run by Walker. While in Germany, he met with the Thyssen family for the first time. Harriman agreed to help the Thyssens with their plan for an American bank. The following year, a wounded Germany was growing sicker. The government had no solution and froze while Germany rotted from within. With widespread strikes and production at a near standstill, Fritz Thyssen later recalled, "We were at the worst time of the inflation. In Berlin the government was in distress. It was ruined financially. Authority was crumbling. In Saxony a communist government had been formed and the Red terror, organized by Max Hoelz, reigned through the countryside. The German Reich ... was now about to crumble." In October, 1923, an emotionally desperate Fritz Thyssen went to visit one of his and Germany's great military heroes, General Erich Ludendorff. During the 1918 socialist rule in Berlin, Ludendorff organized a military resistance against the socialists and the industrialists were in great debt to him. When Thyssen met with Ludendorff, they discussed Germany's economic collapse. Thyssen was apocalyptic, fearing the worst was yet to come. Ludendorff disagreed. "There is but one hope," Ludendorff said, "Adolph Hitler and the National Socialist party." Ludendorff respected Hitler immensely. "He is the only man who has any political sense." Ludendorff encouraged Thyssen to join the Nazi movement. "Go listen to him one day" he said to Thyssen. Thyssen followed General Ludendorff's advice and went to a number of meetings to hear Hitler speak. He became mesmerized by Hitler. "I realized his orator gifts and his ability to lead the masses. What impressed me most however was the order that reigned over his meetings, the almost military discipline of his followers." Thyssen arranged to meet privately with Hitler and Ludendorff in Munich. Hitler told Thyssen the Nazi movement was in financial trouble, it was not growing fast enough and was nationally irrelevant. Hitler needed as much money as possible to fight off the Communists/Jewish conspiracy against Europe. Hitler envisioned a fascist German monarchy with a nonunion, antilock national work force. Thyssen was overjoyed with the Nazi platform. He gave Hitler and Ludendorff 100,000 gold marks ($25,000) for the infant Nazi party. Others in the steel and coal industries soon followed Thyssen's lead, although none came close to matching him. Many business leaders in Germany supported Hitler's secret union-hating agenda. However, some donated because they feared they would be left out in the cold if he actually ever seized power. Most industry leaders gave up on Hitler after his failed coup in 1923. While Hitler spent a brief time in jail, the Thyssens, through the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, opened the Union Banking Corporation in 1924. Union Banking Corporation Early in 1924, Hendrick J. Kouwenhoven, the managing director of Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, traveled to New York to meet with Walker and the Harriman brothers. Together, they established The Union Banking Corporation. The UBC's headquarters was located at the same 39 Broadway address as Harriman & Co. As the German economy recovered through the mid to late ?20s, Walker and Harriman's firm sold over $50,000,000 worth of German bonds to American investors, who profited enormously from the economic boom in Germany. In 1926, August Thyssen died at the age of 84. Fritz was now in control of one of the largest industrial families in Europe. He quickly created the United Steel Works (USW), the biggest industrial conglomerate in German history. Thyssen hired Albert Volger, one of the Ruhr's most influential industrial directors, as director General of USW. Thyssen also brought Fredich Flick, another German family juggernaut, on board. Flick owned coal and steel industries throughout Germany and Poland and desperately wanted to invest into the Thyssen empire. One of the primary motivations for the Thyssen/Flick massive steel and coal merger was suppressing the new labor and socialist movements. That year in New York, George Walker decided to give his new son in law, Prescott Bush, a big break. Walker made Bush a vice president of Harriman & Co. Prescott's new office employed many of his classmates from his Yale class of 1917, including Roland Harriman and Knight Woolley. The three had been close friends at Yale and were all members of Skull and Bones, the mysterious on-campus secret society. Despite the upbeat fraternity atmosphere at Harriman & Co., it was also a place of hard work, and no one worked harder than Prescott Bush. In fact, Walker hired Bush to help him supervise the new Thyssen/Flick United Steel Works. One section of the USW empire was the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and the Upper Silesian Coal and Steel Company located in the Silesian section of Poland. Thyssen and Flick paid Bush and Walker generously, but it was worth every dime. Their new business arrangement pleased them all financially, and the collective talents of all four men and their rapid success astonished the business world. In the meantime Hitler and the Nazi party were broke. Since the German economic recovery, members and donations had dried up, leaving the Nazi movement withering on the vine. In 1927, Hitler was desperate for cash; his party was slipping into debt. Hitler told his private secretary Rudolf Hess to shake down wealthy coal tycoon and Nazi sympathizer Emil Kirdorf. Kirdorf paid off Hitler's debt that year but the following year, he too had no money left to contribute. In 1928, Hitler had his eyes on the enormous Barlow Palace located in Briennerstrasse, the most aristocratic section of Munich. Hitler wanted to convert the palace into the Nazi national headquarters and change its name to the Brown House but it was out of his price range. Hitler told Hess to contact Thyssen. After hearing the Hess appeal, Thyssen felt it was time to give Hitler a second chance. Through the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, Thyssen said he "placed Hess in possession of the required funds" to purchase and redesign the Palace. Thyssen later said the amount was about 250,000 marks but leading Nazis later claimed that just the re-molding cost over 800,000 marks (equivalent to $2 million today). Regardless of the cost, Hitler and Thyssen became close friends after the purchase of the Brown House. At the time, neither knew how influential that house was to become the following year when, in 1929, the great depression spread around the world. With the German economic recovery up in flames, Hitler knew there was going to be a line out the door of industrialists waiting to give him cash." unquote to be continued... fyi -- how did this all get covered up? Michael Kranish deciphered the code in his 4/23/2001 front page article of The Boston Globe. http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Conspiracies/prescott_bush_and_the_nazis.htm quote: ""Prescott Bush was surely aghast at a sensational article the New York Herald Tribune splashed on its front page in July 1942. 'Hitler's Angel Has 3 Million in US Bank,' read the headline above a story reporting that Adolf Hitler's financier had stowed the fortune in Union Banking Corp., possibly to be held for "Nazi bigwigs." Bush knew all about the New York bank: He was one of its seven directors. If the Nazi tie became known, it would be a potential embarrassment, Bush and his partners at Brown Brothers Harriman worried, explaining to government regulators that their position was merely an unpaid courtesy for a client. The situation grew more serious when the government seized Union's assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the sort of action that could have ruined Bush's political dreams. As it turned out, his involvement wasn't pursued by the press or political opponents during his Senate campaigns a decade later. But the episode may well have been one of the catalysts for a dramatic change in his life. Just as the Union Banking story broke, Bush volunteered to be chairman of United Service Organizations, putting himself on the national stage for the first time. He traveled the country raising millions of dollars to help boost the morale of US troops during World War II, enhancing his stature in a way that helped him get elected US senator. A son and grandson would become presidents.""unquote _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jackattack7 Tue May 6 16:42:51 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:42:51 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] George W. Christ? Message-ID: http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/050503A.shtml the critique of the speech aboard the deck of the Abraham Lincoln in flight get up. 1) bush went AWOL and keeps up the lie about his "military history" 2) chapter 61 of isiaah, come on chump, you's an anti-muslim killa dat burned books in baghdad and mo...i see it now the whole new world order is cumin together in a thousand points of christian light w the pope puking...remember the old second coming DA, i.e. nuclear war good, oh boy korcok is in w a crowd... quote: "In his remarks, Bush closed with a paraphrasing of the Book of Isaiah: "In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'To the captives, 'come out,' and to those in darkness, 'be free,''" This was a quotation from Chapter 61 of Isaiah, the very book Jesus Christ used when proclaiming that Isaiah's prophesies of the Messiah had come true. Using this passage from Isaiah, Jesus presented himself as the Son of God in Nazareth. Thus it is told in Luke, Chapter 4, Verses 16-22: "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."" Under normal circumstances, we could write this off as a President reaching for hopeful Biblical language to frame a particular argument. This has been done before, by many American leaders in many situations. In this case, taken on the political surface, we could see a President using the Bible to define the latest reason for war in Iraq -- the 'liberation' of the people -- in the conspicuous absence of the oft-repeated reason that started the war -- the presence of mass destruction weapons. A further analysis of George W. Bush himself, however, leads to some serious questions. The passage of Isaiah referenced by Jesus at Nazareth, and by Bush on the Abraham Lincoln, is part of a larger collection of verses known as the "Servant Songs." The specific verse used by Bush, out of Isaiah 61, is most important; it is widely accepted by both Christian and Jewish scholars as announcing the Messiah. For Christians, the Messiah is Jesus, and so this passage refers specifically to Him and His coming. The fact that Jesus Himself used this passage to announce His presence further confirms this. Bush's reading of this passage suggests the possibility that he believes this coming, for the second time, has arrived. It has been oft-reported that Bush witnessed the attacks of 9/11 and came to believe that God Himself, and not Scalia and the rest, put him into the Presidency for the sole purpose of pursuing this war against terrorism. It has likewise been oft-reported that Bush is an evangelical Christian of the vigorous Billy Graham stripe. We have witnessed the failure of every rationalization for making war on Iraq -- the WMDs, the terrorist connections -- and are left now with the rhetorical argument that we did the whole thing to 'save' the Iraqi people. Ergo, Bush positioned himself on the deck of that aircraft carrier as a savior." unquote _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From tshuman Tue May 6 17:16:17 2003 From: tshuman (Terrance Shuman) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:16:17 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Responsibility and Action: ans Roston In-Reply-To: <1052229317.3eb7bec51b975@www.omnimail.sm> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506160928.00a2a7f0@mail.magiccablepc.com> De-cloaking again, somewhat less than briefly... At 03:55 PM 5/6/2003 +0200, Michael Roston wrote: >I'm sorry - I shouldn't have used the term Fair enough. >someone like Donald Rumsfeld has been committing acts of terror for so >long that it's >a misnomer to say there is anything "neo"about him. So, we've moved from *responsibility* for heinous outcomes to a charge that the folks with whom you take issue are COMMITTING heinous acts? That's kind of silly, really. Rummy likes to delegate. Unlikely he'd actually pull an act of terrorism personally... >Let's go back to my argument here, and maybe instead of splitting hairs >with me >over terminology, you'll answer it this time: many defenders of the >military intervention in >Iraq have analogized our overthrow of Saddam to our destruction of >Hitler's Nazi regime. >Would FDR or Churchill have kept anyone on their foreign policy and >war-planning teams who 20 >years before had publicly declared their support for Hitler, going as far >as to very publicly >shake hands with them? Beats me. Twenty years is a long time. In 1952, we were shooting at Chinese in Korea; in 1972, we were toasting them at a state dinner in Beijing. Should Nixon not have gone to China in '72 because he supported U.S. military action in Korea in '52? With regard to Churchill and FDR, it should be remembered that the former said complimentary things about Hitler in the early '30s, and that the latter was rather chummy with Uncle Joe Stalin, the second-greatest mass murderer in human history... On the larger point, I'm not responsible for anyone else's analogies. I don't think taking out Saddam is comparable to taking out Nazi Germany. The latter is obviously a more significant accomplishment. The former, however, was still a worthwhile end. >Why do you feel empowered to so blithely declare something to be "sound >geopolitical reasons" >when it includes the use of chemical weapons in warfare, the use of >chemical weapons against >civilian populations, the use of harsh military force against civilian >populations, the use >of ethnic cleansing? Simple. The world was a different place before the fall of the Soviet Union. Next question? And while you're formulating it, how about answering mine? Why should we make policy NOW based on things we did 10, 20, 30 years before? >You're right I'm pissed off whenever any American president looks the >other way, pretends >that a foreign government hasn't committed horrible atrocities, and shoots >down every effort >that other states take to hold that foreign government accountable in a >variety of fora. Oh, I get it: This is a joke, right? What "efforts" to "hold foreign governments accountable" would those be, Michael? >That says that Kurdish people, Iraqi Shi'ite people, >Iraqi Marsh Arab people, and Iraqi Sunnis who don't tow the line are less >important than the >handful of Americans whose lives are ever touched by the pursuit of those >sound geopolitical >reasons you so graciously whitewash. You're "conservative" policy >wholeheartedly endorses >crimes against humanity for the pursuit of "sound geopolitical interests." The proper concern of our government is, first and foremost, the welfare of OUR citizens. And I'm not "whitewashing" anything, nor are conservatives generally. If you were better-read, you'd know that conservatives have been squawking about the State Department's moral laxity for DECADES. You're a little late to the party, frankly... >And while we're at it, stop lumping me in with "leftist" or "liberal" >foreign policy. I've >harshly criticized the Clinton-era "fuck and bomb" policy on repeated >occasions. Fair enough. >What's so unlikely? I'm sorry if St. Joseph is a long way from Islamabad, >but I'm telling >you in my professional opinion as an analyst of WMD proliferation that >Pakistan traded >uranium enrichment technology to the government of North Korea for >ballistic missile >technology. The Bush administration has looked the other way the entire >time. We're still >not sure if they did the same thing in Iran. In our pursuit of "sound >geopolitical >interests" we're creating new and more terrific dangers for >ourselves. I'm not constructing >any fantasies here; your "conservative" foreign policy is narcotized, >asleep, and dreaming. No, it isn't. I've been pretty vocal myself about the dangers posed by WMD proliferation. In my opinion, the ones who are "narcotized, asleep, and dreaming" are the ones who would rather block U.S. efforts to develop defensive systems to protect itself. If you're right about Pakistan, what would you have us do? And, finally, who cares? We shouldn't have liberated Iraq because Pakistan is pulling some shit? What kind of foreign policy is that? >What, precisely, was the objection to the liberation of Iraq by Donald >Rumsfeld in 1983 when >he shook Saddam Hussein's hand? Answered above. The world was a very different place in 1983. Among other things, I had a 32-inch waistline. Those days are long gone, of course... ;-) >What, precisely, was the objection to the liberation of Kurdish and >Shi'ite peoples from >Saddam's reign of terror in 1991 when GHW Bush failed to sponsor their >uprising? Yo, dawg, wrong tree. Bush Sr. screwed up, no question. Why should that be a reason NOT to undo the mistake now? >What, precisely, will be your objection to the liberation of the Kurdish >people from the >fiction of Iraq when they decide that the effective sharing of power with >Shi'ite and Sunni >peoples of Iraq is impossible? Do you mean are we morally obligated to guarantee the Kurds an independent state of their own? Nope. As for your questions regarding the political evolution in Iraq, beats me. Not many precedents for this kind of thing in human history, eh? My guess is, they'll work out their differences rather than return to barbarism, but I could be wrong about that. In the meantime, it is faintly ridiculous for Americans to complain about how messy Iraq's liberation might become. The Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783. We didn't have our Constitution in effect until 1789, and we didn't have the Bill of Rights until 1791. Let's see how Iraq is doing in eight years, and THEN bitch if they haven't gotten their act together, eh? I'm betting it won't take them 129 years to allow women to vote, the way it did us... ;-) >Actually, my calls for an end to the House of Saud have been made very >publicly on this list. > Sorry if you feel like you need to group me into "leftist" foreign > policy. I want our >diplomatic approach to be at least as smart as our bombs. Fair enough. But there is nothing "dumb" about liberating Iraq, nor is it dumb to pull out of Saudi Arabia, nor is it dumb to pressure Syria and Iran to chill out. What, precisely, would you have us do? Send the 101st Airborne into Riyadh? You say you don't think military action against the Saudis "has to be imagined" yet, but you assure us that they're every bit as much of a threat to the region as Saddam's Iraq was. What, then? >The "conservative" foreign policy you endorse is rapidly adding a third >ring to the circus. I respectfully disagree. A foreign policy is more than just an action here or there. It is a worldview that shapes action. And I'm a LOT more comfortable with the Bush Administration's views about what the U.S. ought to be doing to pursue its interests than I am with any alternatives I'm reading on this list... >Containment worked. the idea that Saddam was threatening the Middle East >is a joke, and >amply proven by the rapid destruction of his regime and military. Oh, please. Iran isn't the U.S., and neither are Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. He was most definitely a threat to THEM (he INVADED two of them, for God's sake), to say nothing of Israel. Saddam intended to gain control of that oil, one way or another. And THAT outcome would certainly NOT have been in our interest, or in the interest of world peace... Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and...well, not so tall as I used to be, Terrance Shuman Bishop LeBlond Memorial High School St. Joseph, Missouri From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 6 19:51:11 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:51:11 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sanchez Message-ID: oh again with the senselessness, but its funny sometimes.... Korcok: "i never claimed that our support for opposition groups (your counterplan) would have caused more harm than Saddam Hussein did." funny, because that's the standard you hold the plan to - guess its a double-standard in defense of whatever the whims of your administration are. Korcok: "i argued that our support for opposition groups wouldn't have toppled Hussein (and evidenced it), ..." uh no, you evidenced the fact that they couldn't do this on their own, which i agreed with, and that's why the usa which propped up this brutal dictator had a special obligation to support those who've been trying for decades to topple him and fight shoulder-to-shoulder with them for the purpose of liberation (not unilateral occupation). continuing to answer arguments i've never made ... Korcok: "i also argued that your counterplan would have likely caused more casualties than the liberation caused and the warrant was also evidenced: Hussein would have counter-attacked and without US troops to protect the opposition groups, it would have been a replay of the massacres of '88 and '92." again, an admission that you're answering the wrong counter-plan - allied troops should be involved, but recruiting opposition forces would've solved the problem of their being insufficient ground forces (see mccaffery's comments, for instance) and would have made it possible to (a) keep bombing raids to an absolute minimum and to (b) secure the safety of post-conflict iraq, and since these are the two 'mistakes' which killed and/or injured thousands of iraqi civilians, you're argument is warrantless. Korcok: "you have yet to provide A SINGLE CARD as evidence that your counterplan,..." as you have failed to provide a single card attacking it. there have been multiple credible analysis of all the options and perhaps you could read a few and get back to us, because if we're going by logic, its 'game over' for you. Korcok: "i have no problem defending the sanctions, however. Kevin, PROVE that 1 million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions." tony blair has said so on multiple occassions, as well as colin powell and donald rumsfeld - so i'm glad you're finally developing those critical thinking skills necessary to question the rhetoric of governmental officials, but perhaps you're demands for proof are better directed to them. the figure is certainly hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths, and i'm not going to split hairs. Korcok says i need to "argue that the sanctions were responsible rather than Saddam and Sons' refusal to comply with the UN resolutions which triggered the sanctions as enforcement" - well one would think that letting Saddam determine one's ethical choices is a history lesson that the usa would've learned from (despite your 'perm' quite the contrary appears to be the case); the fact remains that thousands upon thousands of civilians would've have died had the economic blockade not been in place. ... and "provide accurate pre-sanction birth and mortality rates, provide accurate post-sanction birth and mortality rates, and explain how it was that once the anti-sanctions argument began to be made, the pre-sanctions birth rate estimates for Iraq rose substantially and the pre-sanctions mortality rate estimates for Iraq dropped precipitously. you know, compare EVERY 1980-1996 UN and other estimate of Iraqi birth and mortality rates to the estimates of Iraqi birth and mortality rates offered by the anti-sanctions crowd and EXPLAIN how those numbers became magically transformed." well we know for sure that the bombing raids destroyed water treatment facilities which directly led to the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians killed by water-born diseases, and we know that the lack of access to clean water was detrimental to the health of ordinary iraqis. the world heatlh organization has already done what you've asked of me and that's where the figures blair and others cited came from. what's funny is that if i were saying, 'saddam only killed two hundred thousand, not a million people', you'd be calling me an apologist - but you're quibbling over the statistics of a similar-sized atrocity under the guise of 'proving the facts'. get a conscience, Korcok - you're talking about real children, real families, real flesh and blood who need basic necessities to survive, and you're defending a practice that would punish them and not their oppressive leader. one bin laden used the same logic on 9/11. Korcok: "OH! and kindly jump on Klemz's nuts for advocating that the US should have become energy independent in the 1970s to substantially curtail our imports of Iraqi oil. you DO understand that would have been the SAME as economic sanctions on Iraq only 15 years EARLIER and PERMANENTLY, right? go get him tiger! grrrrrr... " well as i'm sure you know Korcok, there are other countries in the world besides the usa, and had this country become energy indpendent, the demand would've shifted to industrializing nations like china and India. even now the usa isn't the main oil importer for the middle east, though as the military protectorate of globalized capital flows, it takes a greater 'interest' in the political goings-on. had the usa become cleaner earlier, it would also be in a much better position to pull the world away from the serious threats to the earth's climate caused by co2 emissions - in light of the failure of kyoto, the picture looks quite bleak as of now. Korcok: "you are a lousy son." and you're a lousy fucking softball player, jack. .k _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Tue May 6 19:52:01 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:52:01 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] 1AC (cont) Message-ID: contention 2: historical background for bush dynasty involvement w the Nazis. 1) William Huntington Russell went to Germany between 1831-2 while the Prussian "enlightenment" reforms were creating the educational Bildung/model that would shape the modern British and Amerikan educational systems w the "seminar" being the seminal advancement. Russell and Taft started a Chapter of Scull and Bones at Yale upon Russell's return in 1832. http://www.ctrl.org/essay1/ESB1.html quote: "According to information acquired from a break-in to the "tomb" (the Skull and Bones meeting hall) in 1876, "Bones is a chapter of a corps in a German University.... General Russell, its founder, was in Germany before his Senior Year and formed a warm friendship with a leading member of a German society. He brought back with him to college, authority to found a chapter here." So class valedictorian William H. Russell, along with fourteen others, became the founding members of "The Order of Scull and Bones," later changed to "The Order of Skull and Bones"." unquote 2) The German fraternity upon which the secret Yale society has links to Illuminati ideas of global control. Sutton is one of the key scholars on the Skull and Bones. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intro1.htm quote: "While critics concede that the Illuminati "was an actual group that existed from 1776 until 1785. . . " it is also explained that: "Given the fact that Weishaupt's ideas ran counter to the authoritarian, church-intertwined-with-state power structure, he was forced to keep his Illuminati secret and work through Masonic lodges. He was not successful."(14) Sutton made numerous tentative comparisons between the Illuminati and Bones. Each member, according to an 1876 anonymous satire, has an "inside name" and "these names bear a remarkable resemblance to those used by the Illuminati, e.g., Chilo, Eumenes, Glaucus, Pristicus and Arbaces."(15) He added: "During its time, the Illuminati had widespread and influential membership. After suppression by the Bavarian Government in 1788 it was quiet for some years and then reportedly revived."(16) Sutton promised that "in a subsequent book, we will trace the order to the Illuminati. . ."(17) Also, Sutton stated: "The significance of this study is that the methods and objectives (of the Illuminati) parallel those of the Order. In fact, infiltration of the Illuminati into New England is known and will be the topic of a forthcoming volume."(18) He later wrote: "At this point we want to draw a comparison between the Order known as Skull and Bones and The Order known as Illuminati in 18th century Bavaria. This is not the time and place to draw final conclusions."(19) Sutton noted that "It (Bones) was introduced into the United States by William Russell, later General William Russell, who brought a charter back from his student days in Germany."(20) [So far a check of Russell's biographies has revealed no hint of a German education]. When the Skull and Bones "Temple" was raided in 1876 a card was found that read: "From the German Chapter. Presented by Patriarch D.C. Gilman of D. 50."(21) The Yale Bones catalogs indicate that Skull and Bones began in the U.S. in the 3rd decade of the second period of the organization. The first decade of the second period would be 1800 with the first period being 1790-1800: "That places us in the time frame of the elimination of Illuminati by the Bavarian Elector."(22)" unquote the ultimate aims of the Illuminati consistent w the bush family and their three generation skull and bones affiliation: http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Order_of_Skull/part_9.htm quote: "The Bavarian Government outlawed the society and in 1787 published the details of The Illuminati conspiracy in "The Original Writings of the Order and Sect of the Illuminati." In Adam Weishaupt's own words: "By this plan, we shall direct all mankind in this manner. And, by the simplest means, we shall set all in motion and in flames. The occupations must be so allotted and contrived that we may, in secret, influence all political transactions." unquote 3) Prescott (1917), HW (48), and not so smart W (68) were all tapped on the shoulder and made part of the secret german nazi fraternity and had their anuses penetrated by the cocks of fellow bonesmen in rituals of initiation contrary to senate morality convened against sodomy. HW was actually the top dog of the fraternity in '48. The Bush family are one of a ring of aristocratic families that have used secret influence to gain control and should not be isolated though Brown Brothers Harriman played a leading role in world manipulation. Not only were these Bonesmen key players in banking, shipping and drug trade but also coincidentally founders of the OSS and the CIA. 4) *** We add this to the debate. The Skull and Bones card is crucial for understanding the Bush family oversight of Nazi cartels and implication in Nazi money laundering because the Hegelian philosophy that molded the 19th century fraternity demonstrates the Nazi financing as the thesis of a proposition that would have the funding of the Bolsheviks in Russia as its antithesis. Derrida and many others have critiqued and rejected Hegel on the basis that his philosophy seeks world domination through appropriation of difference. (We are glad to see people like Bill Newnam identifying the Bush family links w Thyssen and the Union Banking Corporation, but to fully understand Prescott Bush's racist unilateralism, you must see the repeating cycles of generating conflict so that the US can come in and save the day despite flagrant historical contradictions that the Skull and Bones could care less about because that is ultimately their philosophy -- hence korcok's consistent dismissal of contradiction as relevant) The funding of the right-wing nazis was part of a two plank strategy to create a societal conflict that lasted through the Cold War up until NOW w the overthrow of the iraqi socialist regime and the game ain't close to over until the Skull and Bones are overthrown from power. http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/3/skullandbones.htm quote: "William Huntington Russell("33), Samuel's cousin, went to Germany, in 1831-32, to study. Germany was a hot-bed of ideas. The "scientific method" was being applied to all forms of human endeavor. Blaming the defeat of Prussian forces by Napoleon in 1806 on soldiers only thinking about themselves in the stress of battle, Prussia took the principles set forth by John Locke and Jean Rosseau and created a new educational system. Johan Fitche, in his Address to the German People, declares that the children will be taken over and told what to think and how to think it. Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel took over, Fitche's chair, at the University Of Berlin, in 1817, and was a professor there until his death in 1831. Hegel was the culmination of the German idealistic philosophy school of Immanuel Kant. To Hegel, the world is a world of reason. The state is Absolute Reason and the citizen can only become free by worship and obedience to the state. The state is the "march of God in the world" and the "final end". This "final end has supreme right against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a member of the state". Both Fascism and Communism have their philosophical roots in Hegellianism... The two investment bank firms, Guaranty Trust and Brown Brothers, Harriman were both dominated by members of Skull and Bones, since the turn of the century. The two firms were involved in the financing of Communism and Hitler, showing the Skull & Bones affinity for using the Hegellian ideas of the historical dialectic. Using controlled conflict, thesis versus anti-thesis to create synthesis. A synthesis of their making and design, where the state is absolute and individuals are granted their freedoms by obedience to the state - A New World Order. Money and maneuvering, from "Bonesmen" and their allies, helped the Bolsheviks prevail. And in defiance of federal laws and bureaucrats, the cabal, financed industries, set-up banks and developed oil and mineral deposits in the fledgling U. S. S. R. Later, Averil Harriman, as minister to Great Britain in charge of Lend-Lease for Britain and Russia was responsible for shipping in entire factories and some people say nuclear secrets, plutonium and U. S. dollar printing plates. In 1932, the Union Banking Corporation of New York City had four directors from the ('17 ) cell and two Nazi bankers associated with Fritz Thyssen, who had been financing Hitler, since 1924." unquote sutton has written books on both angles, i.e. financing the nazis and the bolsheviks, to demonstrate the bonesmen goal of war as a purifying synthesis. http://www.trunkerton.fsnet.co.uk/skull.htm quote: "Eventually, S&B came to be dominated by BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN, the largest private investment bank in AMERICA. The CEO of this power group, Averell Harriman, was the mentor of George Bush's father, Prescott Bush. George Bush's grandfather George Herbert Walker, served as president of BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN. The Bush family has SPENT three generations in service to the Harriman interests. That is why it is downright nefarious that it was the widow of Averell Harriman, Pamela Harriman, who was the principle backer of Bill Clinton for President. When Clinton lost the campaign for Governor of Arkansas, it was Pamela who picked him up, dusted him off and made him chairman of PAM-PAC--the largest fund raising source for the Democratic Party. Some cynics think that George Bush is still president, using Bill Clinton as a front, just as he had used Ronald Reagan. Remember, anyone who wanted to meet with President Reagan had to first go through Bush's former campagn manager, Chief of Staff James Baker. There is a book that was recently on the New York Times bestsellers list about Pamela Harriman, entitled LIFE OF THE PARTY. This book, written by the diplomatic correspondent for TIME MAGAZINE, minces no words about the fact that Pamela Harriman "put the Clinton Administration together". In fact it notes that an ancestor of Pamela's conspired with the Percys in the Gun Powder Plot. BROWN BROTHERS HARRRIMAN headed by Averell Harriman, the SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL LAW FIRM, headed by John Foster Dulles and the UNION BANK, headed by George Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush, came to represent the entire business interests of the NAZI cartels in the U.S. before and during World War II. It may therefore seem astounding to the average reader that, after the war John Dulles could go on to be Secretary of State, his brother Allen Dulles Director of CIA and Averell Harriman Ambassador to the USSR. An understanding of this anomaly will provide a key to how the world is run. A careful reading of Anthony Sutton's works, WALL STREET AND THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION and WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER will reveal that the wealthiest individuals in the world (including John D. Rockefeller and Prescott Bush) financed the left wing Bolsheviks and the right wing Nazis and clashed them in war for profit and power. The two Wall Street firms most in the forefront of the financing of the Bolshevik revolution were J.P. MORGAN and BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN. A full half of the board of directors of these two firms were former members of SKULL AND BONES at YALE!! Percy Rockefeller, Prescott Bush and Roland Harriman were in the same pledge class. This group intends to control both sides of every conflict. Fletcher Prouty's book, JFK, VIETNAM AND THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY (now in local bookstores), will provide an insider's viewpoint of how these same centers of finance stay on top by controlling both Communist and anti-Communist armies. The influence of the YALE secret society, S&B, on world affairs is so great that a short article like this cannot attempt more than present an outline and a direction for further research. Needless to say, this group has cut through history like a snowplow. As previously stated, Alfonso Taft, co-founder of S&B and ancestor of George Bush, was sufficiently influential to manipulate his son, William Howard Taft, into both the presidency (1909-1913) and then the Chief Justiceship of the Supreme Court. Quite significantly it was during the Taft presidency that our constitution was dismantled. As Chief Justice, Taft fashioned the state constitutions of Arizona and New Mexico--also highly significant." unquote stromboli _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 6 19:57:04 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:57:04 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Responsibility and Action: ans Roston Message-ID: Shyuman: "So, we've moved from *responsibility* for heinous outcomes to a charge that the folks with whom you take issue are COMMITTING heinous acts? That's kind of silly, really. Rummy likes to delegate. Unlikely he'd actually pull an act of terrorism personally ..." so does bin Laden just like to 'delegate' too? .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mmk_savant Tue May 6 22:41:58 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:41:58 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] question for Newnam Message-ID: so... whadda ya think about Stroube's 1ac? in particular, whadda ya think about 1. the sources he quotes: robert lederman (moron) who painted this Giuliani as Hitler thing and this great numerological analysis of 9/11 http://www.baltech.org/lederman/ART/Arrest-giuliani-not-artists.jpg , #8 of http://www.baltech.org/lederman/9-11-unpopular.html nick mamatos (moron) senior editor of Soft Skull. len horowitz (moron) of "Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse" fame toby rogers (moron) who wrote that Richard Helms planned the JFK assassination http://sanderhicks.com/helms.html meta-religion.com (morons) who changed Kranish's innocuous Boston Globe article on Prescott Bush from "Triumphs, troubles shape generations Prescott Bush paved moderate path for son and grandson; wounded by friend's betrayal, he put high price on loyalty By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 4/23/2001" to Prescott Bush and the Nazis by MICHAEL KRANISH (Excerpt from PRESCOTT BUSH & NAZIS, BOSTON GLOBE 4/23/2001, TRIUMPHS, TROUBLES SHAPE GENERATIONS) 2. the theory he presents: Skull and Bones, the Masons, the Illuminati, the CIA, Hitler, IG Farben, etc etc. just wondering (i guess my opinion sorta came through but WHADDA YOU THINK?), Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030506/0a477dd7/attachment.html From Maxwell.Schnurer Wed May 7 00:09:30 2003 From: Maxwell.Schnurer (Maxwell Schnurer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:09:30 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Marist Assistant Coach becomes Mayor of New Paltz Message-ID: I just came back from my friend Jason's celebration party. Jason West - one of the Marist assistant debate coaches just became the Mayor of my town on the green ticket. About a year ago my friend Jason West started talking about the Mayor of New Paltz, my little town. Jason is a green party activist, housepainter and puppeteer (arm of the sea). He is also one of the Marist assistant debate coaches. Initially, Jason wanted me to run for mayor, an idea that I quickly declined after I realized that between activism, academics and debate my plate was pretty full. Jason's work in the Green party basically matches up to almost everyone's experience with the green party. They usually gather a gang of local candidates for elections and get about 10 percent of the vote. Jason has been a green party organizer for about 6 years and the best his organizing had gotten was about 15 percent of the vote with him running for county legislature. So Jason and I sat around my house late in the evenings and talked about politics. Jason was not well regarded by most of the radical activist community because he was a fan of electoral politics. Amongst my anarchist-leaning activist friends, the very notion of voting is considered a grotesque betrayal of radical politics. But being a secret politics disad hack (ask liberty or catholic), I love to talk politics and we would stay up late arguing about strategy. I suggested that Jason run for Mayor on the Freak Power Ticket. Running on Hunter S. Thompson's campaign strategy where he planned to end development in Aspen and generally make a nuisance of himself. My suggestion was that Jason model a campaign after Hunter's ideas. Despite the bizarre nature of that idea it had some merit because of the nature of local politics in New Paltz. New Paltz is a quiet little hamlet at the foot of the Shawanagunks mountains (the premi?re east coast rock climbing spot). The village of New Paltz has about four thousand people in it and they are a mix of locals, rock climbers, former college-student burnouts, business folks, and landlords. The political scene probably sounds like most other democratic/liberal small towns except for the college. New Paltz houses a SUNY that has almost 11,000 students. These students are residents of the village and are eligible to vote in the mayoral election. My argument was to ignore the town and the landlords and the traditional power base and run a campaign that would excite the college kids. I suggested big keg party voter registration drives, and a campaign filled with ideas like "tearing up the main street and planting grass" and "make it illegal for the cops to arrest people . . . make them give rides to people instead!" You know, useful advice like that. Of course the students don't vote. The last mayoral election yielded about 800 voters and 11 students. So the mayor and the "serious" candidates decided to ignore the students. One candidate Robert Feldman suggested moving the election date to June to ensure student disenfranchisement. The other mayoral candidate Tom Nyquist was the total insider. He had been mayor for 19 years, and basically had carved out a fiefdom for himself in New Paltz. Last year he spent a long time supporting a bill that banned putting couches on front porches . . . an explicitly anti-college student policy. I was honestly surprised when Jason agreed to run for mayor. He had been pretty down in the dumps about politics because his campaigns kept getting creamed. He even talked about working w/ some democrats or even moving out of New Paltz. But Jason emerged again, and he was a mayoral candidate on his new party called the Innovation campaign. The strange thing was that we didn't see him. We got flyers from the other candidates (Feldman and Nyquist) and saw them going door to door in our neighborhood. But we didn't see Jason or either of his running mates (Julia Walsh, a college student environmentalist and Rebecca Rotzler, a local special education teacher) at all. We knew they were campaigning, but slowly I started to see them - on campus. At the animal rights meetings at campus, they were there to talk or just to listen to folks. They had a huge campus voter registration drive. They talked to the feminist groups, the queer groups, and every political group on campus. Then they did a light campaign for the village. But keep in mind that there is no "campaign manager" in these kinds of campaigns. The candidates do almost all the work and a small crew of friends and family help out where they can. A couple of days before the election, I knew there was a lot of stress on the candidates. Jason came by and drank a homebrew while Elena (my partner) and I had a yard sale. We were selling all our old junk and also pushing Jason West for Mayor flyers. Jason was pretty anxious about getting people to vote. He figured that he had a serious chance if he could pull about 300 people. We all agreed that this would be tough. At least half of those 300 folks had to be students who were all in finals. It looked bad. I had been making phone calls for Jason and talking to the folks in the village. The reports were pretty positive, but I only called the non-democratic/republic voters, and so the 5-10 percent support rate I was getting was pretty much what we expected. On Election Day I woke up early and graded a ton of papers so I could free up as much time to help Jason as possible. I went over to his house at 10 to get training to be an election monitor. Jason was worried about all the newly registered college students getting challenged at the polls, so he wanted some loud confident folks to start things off. My friend Pete Healey (who was the former green chair of the NPZ) and I agreed to watch the polls from 12-3. It was our job to mark down every voter on our lists so that we could know who had voted and who hadn't and also to step in and prevent anyone from messing with voters. So we talked about strategy made sure that everyone had the right papers and then got some coffee. We rolled over to campaign headquarters that was right across the street from the polling place. The house had dogs, cats, a few random greens, tofu, and tons of literature. Rebecca Lagodka, a long time green activist had volunteered up her house. Unlike other professional politicians, all the usual house-hold events needed to go on. So I drove her daughter to school, and her husband and I talked about covering sections later for election monitoring. New Paltz power-mongers were not interested in mass participation. The poll was set against us in several ways. The poll was open the minimum amount of time available by law in New York state. You could only vote from noon to 9pm. The poll was split into two voting machines (despite the single district) which made it impossible for one person to be the monitor. And of course, to double the charm of the last rule, they only allow one person to be a monitor. Pete Healey and I rolled into the polling place to monitor at about 11:50. Pete was wearing a flannel shirt and ripped jeans. I was packing a black sweatshirt and my West Point baseball cap. We waited til the doors opened and then went in and explained who we were. The election chair immediately claimed that the party had not requested election monitors so we couldn't be there. Pete and I grinned at each other ready to unload on her and instead simply pulled out a photo-copy of the law and a signed form by our candidate that permitted us to be election monitors. She agreed to let us in. I wound up watching the poll for about two hours, but in that short time things were already interesting. Lots of students and long-hairs were coming out to vote. There were more than 11 in the first hour. In fact there were almost 30 people who fit the freak profile who voted in the first two hours I was there. The folks who run a local CSA (community supported agriculture), one of the major animal rights organizers on campus, a local hippie guitar guru, some lesbians, even Jason himself slipped through the door. The head of New Paltz's NORML (national organization for the reform of Marijjuana laws) dropped in to vote. He wasn't on the rolls despite his brandishing of a voter identification card. We scrapped for his behalf and got the chair of elections to call Kingston. He got to vote. We had to scrap for a couple of students and folks who had slipped off the list. One thing I've noticed is that the people who vote for a housepainter/puppeteer/part-time debate coach are also people tend to move a lot. So they have a hard time re-registering to vote, or keeping up with their current phone numbers. We all knew that the left-wing life-style was a danger to organizing; we just hoped that enough in the streets reminding would make it happen. All the other political regulars seem quite surprised at the brash election monitors and the swarms of pierced voters. My partner Elena relieved me at the poll and I ran off to teach some classes. Returning from my classes, I arrived in time to help coordinate election lists. Elena and I gathered all the lists and scraps of paper that various people had used to write down everyone who had voted that day. By 6:30 we had a single list with about 150 people that we thought were supporters but who hadn't voted. So we used every phone we could find to call those people. We drove them to the polling place, we begged and pleaded for people to come vote. At 8:30 my cell phone battery died. At 8:50 elena's cell phone battery died. We bagged phoning and just sat around dazed. Jason and Rebecca went to go watch the counting. Julia was no where to be found. She was last seen heading to campus to try to round up a couple more votes. Elena and I wandered around quite nervous. The energy was high, but I had seen a LOT of republicans coming out to vote. And because it was lightly raining, we knew that a lot of college students had bagged voting. On the flip side, we had seen a LOT of the funky kids. Interestingly enough, we also saw almost all of the anarchist punks! (Including my friend Matt who asked Elena not to tell anyone that he voted for fear that they would take away his anarchy card). Elena and I crowded into the firehouse to wait the 30 minutes for the results. We crowded in with Jason's dad, sister and step mom. There was a hush and then the election monitor read off the results. Feldman got about 240 votes. Nyquist got about 270 votes. And Jason West got 322 votes. We flipped out. I ran out to the campaign house. Elena and I walked down to the post-election party spot and told everyone and they flipped out. Everyone was ecstatic! Even more amazingly, the greens got a complete sweep of the election. Rebecca and Julia won the trustees. This means that the greens have a guaranteed majority for all decisions in the village. Talk about coat-tails! The freaks had triumphed. We got a mandate for real change. They ran on a total eco-platform, explicitly anti-war, anti-development, student-focused. It was amazing. For once, conscience triumphed over greed, for once the story didn't end with a loss. And just for once, a politician who wants to do a good job gets elected. Well there are a bunch of you in the northeast who have been judged by Jason. If you want to send a congratulations email to him that would be awesome. His email is: oxygengospel at hotmail.com. Congratulations Jason! Congratulations New Paltz! Best, Maxwell/marist. From kenedebate Wed May 7 00:12:14 2003 From: kenedebate (Ken DeLaughder) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:12:14 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement Message-ID: This truly is good news! I'm glad to see another program spring up, no matter where it is... Ken D. ESU Debate >From: Mikedavis13 at aol.com >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:27:03 EDT > > >I am pleased to announce that Piedmont College in Demorest, Georgia will be >starting a debate team next year. They have a very supportive >administration >and some very eager student. They will be starting their season at GA State >next year. > >Some good news on the program front. > >Mike Davis >UGA _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From stannardmatt Wed May 7 00:21:09 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:21:09 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] On Geoff Friggin' Klinger Message-ID: I have a long list of kudos and end-of-the-year thanks that will come out in various waves (mostly while my son is sleeping), but I certainly wanted to begin by bidding Geoff Klinger a rather shocked and bittersweet farewell. As quiet as Geoff is, things got a lot quieter around here when we found out he was leaving. During his time at Utah, Geoff has coached a team to finals at NPDA Nationals (a monumental and exhausting endeavor) and NPTE qualification, coached numerous other parliamentary debate victories, and went out of his way to support and sustain policy debate in district nine. He hosted the all-important GSL when he didn't have to, and supported every single tournament in the district, all the time. He sent policy debaters to the Wyoming Debate Cooperative and threw parli debaters in to hybrid with folks to help policy divisions make. He has been a leader in forensics service and should be honored and commended as such. Beyond that, Geoff believes in debate as a pedagogy and an essential democratic virtue. Nobody will foget his invocation of Aristotle at his first awards ceremony. His promotion of debate is clearly driven by an agenda to replace the violence of coercion with the nuances of words. That agenda seems to inform every facet of his career. My teams will tell you that Geoff has incredibly high standards as a critic, and they have been intimidated debating in front of him, but always richer for the experience. He once gave Carol Barella (formerly of Wyoming) "nine hundred and ninety nine" speaker points in a final round where she had uncharacteristically chosen to slow down and go for an epistemology position and a personal narrative. His ballots read like commentary on classical rhetoric. Finally, Geoff has been my friend, tavern companion, and sounding board for the past four years. "Now those who wish well to their friends for their sake are most truly friends; for they do this by reason of own nature and not incidentally; therefore their friendship lasts as long as they are good-and goodness is an enduring thing. " (Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics) stannard _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From aogletree Wed May 7 08:34:24 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:34:24 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] US: 'Saddam Had No Weapons of Mass Destruction' Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/9f4004d2/attachment.htm From x46129 Wed May 7 09:13:43 2003 From: x46129 (Felder, William x46129e3) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:13:43 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] RESULTS -- Student Rep to Topic Committee Message-ID: <7C7E990CEED54A499C1A2A3DF7D362E7106116B0@exmailml01> All - Thanks for your support and input. Again, I had almost 200 people participate in the voting, which is a great turn-out. The student representative to the Topic Committee meeting this year is Greta Stahl, from Michigan State University. Thanks to all those who voted and were nominated. As usual, things could have been handled differently, and there were a lot of suggestions made during the election as to how the process could have been run. Please send me your feedback so that changes can be made next year. Also, if you have any other questions or concerns that you want the executive committee to take a look at, please let me know. Again, congratulations to Greta and to all of the nominees. Thanks. Will Felder Army Debate From jackattack7 Wed May 7 10:51:38 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:51:38 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] 9-11 report: maybe memorial day release Message-ID: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/5792329.htm goss says that the reclassification flies in the face of common sense while admitting embarrassing details for his party. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jwpatt00 Wed May 7 11:10:26 2003 From: jwpatt00 (J.W. Patterson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:10:26 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] TOC FINAL RESULTS Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 7097 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/d754132a/attachment.bin From Maxwell.Schnurer Wed May 7 11:56:02 2003 From: Maxwell.Schnurer (Maxwell Schnurer) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:56:02 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement Message-ID: Andy Ellis and I have been working with Western Connecticut State University to create a new program. Last week we went to WCSU and gave a demonstration debate with color commentary. The students and faculty seemed quite excited about the project and it looks pretty good. Four of their students are headed to WDI and their coach, Dr. Kukk is also headed to WDI in preparation for the next season. We are working on a couple other schools in the area. Congrats to Mike & all the Georgia regional schools who make folks welcome. Welcome all -- best, maxwell/marist "Ken DeLaughder" cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [eDebate] New Program Announcement edebate-admin at ndt ceda.com 05/07/2003 01:12 AM This truly is good news! I'm glad to see another program spring up, no matter where it is... Ken D. ESU Debate >From: Mikedavis13 at aol.com >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement >Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:27:03 EDT > > >I am pleased to announce that Piedmont College in Demorest, Georgia will be >starting a debate team next year. They have a very supportive >administration >and some very eager student. They will be starting their season at GA State >next year. > >Some good news on the program front. > >Mike Davis >UGA _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate From twwesq Wed May 7 12:36:25 2003 From: twwesq (Trevor Wells) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:36:25 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Cal Debate in the News . . . Message-ID: . . . plus the sweetest "Shalmon = Scary Egghead Dork" card ever written: ContraCostaTimes.com, 05/06/2003 Shalmon is considered so smart that younger debaters are known to avoid conversations with him for fear of saying something stupid. . . . Shalmon, who said of himself, "My entire life I've been a total dork," stumbled into debate after the captain of the high school team overheard a speech Shalmon gave in the eighth grade. Check it out: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/5795660.htm Trevor _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Pacedebate Wed May 7 13:14:37 2003 From: Pacedebate (Pacedebate at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:14:37 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate Tour - Lexington Message-ID: <12.303bbfbd.2beaa70d@aol.com> Kamal Ghali and Jarrod Atchinson won the first pro debate tour tournament and a thousand dollars. This team was sponsored by Planetdebate.com. Tim Mahoney Director, Pro Debate Tour www.prodebatetour.com 214-734-3673 972-726-8852 (home) 425-740-9130 fax email: prodebatetour at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/6144932c/attachment.htm From stannardmatt Wed May 7 13:34:45 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:34:45 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] forward from Geoff Klinger Message-ID: Dear Friends, For those of you who know me, it is not my style to say much publicly, especially since my friend formerly to the north of Salt Lake scared me from these lists a few years ago, but I understand that the circumstances merit a few comments. First, it is with tremendously mixed feelings that I take my leave of the University of Utah. It was a dream come true that was tempered by the realities of being a single parent and feeling a long way from home (Indiana). I am delighted to have the opportunity to return to my alma mater, DePauw University, and follow in the footsteps of my mentor in debate and communication, Bob Weiss. I look forward to remaining fully involved in forensics, albeit from a different perspective and venue. I look forward to being involved in the important constitutional initiatives and topic selection under the guidance of incoming NPDA President, Sharon Porter, of Northern Arizona University. She is a dear friend and colleague, and I look forward to a continuing and supportive relationship with her. Second, I am pleased to be the first to publicly announce that Dan Lair, formerly of Carroll College and the University of Montana (and for those of you at NPDA nationals this year, you will remember him as the one who made sure our guests from Europe had the time of their lives!), will be the interim Director of Forensics at Utah next year. I am equally delighted that Trish Stuhan, who developed her forensic skills with Sharon Porter at Northern Arizona University, will assist Dan in administering the program. I simply could not be happier about the situation at Utah next year, and I appreciate the continuing support of the Chair, Ann Darling, and the University. Utah has a long history of fully supporting forensics; it is one of the very few Research I institutions that does so. Despite what has been said otherwise, I see nothing but continuing strong support of the forensics program in the Department of Communication, the College of Humanities, and the University in general. Third, after talking with some friends, and putting our heads together internally, we feel it would be prudent to allow things to unfold without hosting the Great Salt Lake Invitational this coming academic year. While I cannot speak for the incoming director, I do know that the Department feels that hosting this tournament is an important part of what they do both in communication and forensics, so they hope to continue this over thirty year tradition following next year. I hope that this community will be supportive of that return in the right time and place, and will fill the gaps next year with kindness and thoughtfulness. Although I will no longer be here, I will always appreciate the support this community affords my friends at the University of Utah. It is an important program that deserves to be nurtured. Please welcome and mentor the new directors next year; they have so much to add to this community. And continue to be kind to each other, never forgetting the ends toward which we work, and for Whom we are working. As it has been said, "We are all in it together." I will miss my friends, new and old, in the Rocky Mountains, Southwest, West, and Pacific Northwest. You live in a magnificent place surrounded by magnificent people! Thank you for your guidance and companionship. I look forward to seeing you around, albeit with less frequency. With much love and respect, I remain yours, geoff -- Geoffrey D. Klinger Assistant Professor of Communication Director of Forensics University of Utah 255 S. Central Campus Drive; 2400 LNCO Salt Lake City, UT 84112 801.581.6525 (Office) 801.585.6255 (Fax) _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alfred.snider Wed May 7 13:54:10 2003 From: alfred.snider (Alfred C. Snider) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:54:10 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Up here in Vermont we are trying our best... 1. Champlain College here in Burlington is starting a debate team, and we hope to support them in going to some tournaments in the Fall. 2. Middlebury will continue with policy debate, it seems, with incoming students attending WDI to prep. 3. Manhattan College has asked us for assistance in starting a debate program. 4. Massachusetts Amherst's fledgling team from last year is hanging in there, and they plan to send 2 students to WDI. All new programs should feel free to contact me about free curricular materials for teaching debate and scholarship possibilities for WDI this summer. Thanks to all who support debate. Tuna >Andy Ellis and I have been working with Western Connecticut State >University to create a new program. Last week we went to WCSU and gave a >demonstration debate with color commentary. The students and faculty >seemed quite excited about the project and it looks pretty good. Four of >their students are headed to WDI and their coach, Dr. Kukk is also headed >to WDI in preparation for the next season. > >We are working on a couple other schools in the area. > >Congrats to Mike & all the Georgia regional schools who make folks welcome. > >Welcome all -- > >best, maxwell/marist > > > > > > "Ken >DeLaughder" > Mikedavis13 at aol.com, >edebate at ndtceda.com > il.com> >cc: > Sent by: Subject: Re: >[eDebate] New Program >Announcement > >edebate-admin at ndt > >ceda.com > > > > > 05/07/2003 >01:12 > >AM > > > > > > > > >This truly is good news! I'm glad to see another program spring up, no >matter where it is... > >Ken D. >ESU Debate > >>From: Mikedavis13 at aol.com >>To: edebate at ndtceda.com >>Subject: [eDebate] New Program Announcement >>Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:27:03 EDT >> >> >>I am pleased to announce that Piedmont College in Demorest, Georgia will >be >>starting a debate team next year. They have a very supportive >>administration >>and some very eager student. They will be starting their season at GA >State >>next year. >> >>Some good news on the program front. >> >>Mike Davis >>UGA > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -- --------------------------- Alfred C. Snider, AKA Tuna Edwin W. Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont 475 Main, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA World Debate Institute; World Debate Organization 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-0097 office; 802-656-4275 fax http://debate.uvm.edu/; http://debate.uvm.edu/tuna.html; http://debate.uvm.edu/ldu.html ; http://debate.uvm.edu/wdo.html From oguevara Wed May 7 14:21:16 2003 From: oguevara (Omar G Guevara) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:21:16 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] forward from Geoff Klinger Message-ID: Geoff, Thank you for keeping forensics alive and flourishing at the University of Utah. We are all going to miss you next year. Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of listening to your insightful comments at the GSL award ceremony knows that you brought a great deal of dignity to our activity. I know that we all wish you the best in your new adventure. Omar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/863e4de4/attachment.html From j-lux Wed May 7 18:00:42 2003 From: j-lux (j-lux at northwestern.edu) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:00:42 CDT Subject: [eDebate] T-E-J-I-N-D-E-R... Message-ID: <200305072300.h47N0qBh005831@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/9ac0e1cf/attachment.pot From hansonjb Wed May 7 17:54:44 2003 From: hansonjb (Jim Hanson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:54:44 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] final ndt rankings up Message-ID: <004701c314ec$f99254e0$d7077144@hansonjb> with a final fix for the augustana results now done, the ndt final rankings are now out. go to this web page: http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/ndt/ mailed versions should arrive for those schools requesting it some time later next week. jim hanson :) whitman college From lexdevil Wed May 7 18:24:17 2003 From: lexdevil (lexy green) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:24:17 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Need TOC Video Message-ID: <410-2200353723241794@mindspring.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/be1c4a24/attachment.html From drwiese1 Thu May 8 00:01:10 2003 From: drwiese1 (DANIELLE WIESE) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:01:10 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Fw: Iowa Debate Coach looking for Second Session Institute job Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bellus Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:06 PM To: 'DANIELLE WIESE'; 'Danielle Wiese' Subject: Iowa Debate Coach looking for Second Session Institute job Institute Directors: I have come into some additional time for the summer and I hope to work at a summer institute. If anyone is interested in hiring an old high school turned college debate coach I am interested. I will be coming off teaching the Seniors at Iowa program so I should have a modicum of understanding about the topic. I promise to add to the students' and the institute experience. Please call me at 319/335-1969 or email me at paul-bellus at uiowa.edu if you are interested in hiring an additional staff member. As I direct the Iowa Institute, I will not be available until after July 12th. Thanks, Paul Bellus Coordinator of Forensics University of Iowa B12 International Center Coralville, IA 52242 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030507/80d858e1/attachment.htm From jwpatt00 Thu May 8 11:32:57 2003 From: jwpatt00 (J.W. Patterson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:32:57 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] MORE TOC HIGHLIGHTS Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/89419c7e/attachment.bin From heavner2 Thu May 8 12:29:35 2003 From: heavner2 (Brent Heavner) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:29:35 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] DSR-TKA HELP Message-ID: <000001c31587$6504d690$0100a8c0@marshall.edu> To anyone who has some sort of official capacity in the DSR-TKA organization I desperately need some help. Our G.A. misplaced our original entry receipt for DSR nats @ WKY, and I need a piece of paper faxed to our dept. secretary that indicates we paid our $240 for 1 faculty, 2 LD debaters, and our non-member school fee before we can get any money from the trip reimbursed. I tried contacting Mike Edmonds (DSR treasurer), who told me he would fax the material last Monday; he has not done so yet. To reiterate all I need is a slip of paper that says "Marshall paid their fees of $240 for the DSR national tournament by check" and has a signature on it. I only have a couple of days left to get this receipt in and get reimbursed, If anyone can help or knows who can please let me know. Thanks in advance, Brent Heavner Marshall University Debate heavner2 at marshall.edu MUdebate at adelphia.net Dept. Fax: (304) 696-2814 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/65d57656/attachment.htm From mardigras23 Thu May 8 13:12:31 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:12:31 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA biographies Message-ID: I believe that all the top ten/eleven DCA debaters have people to write their biographies except Goof Garen and Calum Matheson. Hopefully Ace and Joe will do these. I would like to start releasing the biographies, but have received none yet. Please send them in as quickly as possible so I can begin this drawn out process in the next few days. Thanks, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From Pacedebate Thu May 8 13:46:04 2003 From: Pacedebate (Pacedebate at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:46:04 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate Tour - Lexington Message-ID: <136.1ebea020.2bebffec@aol.com> I just wanted to thank everyone who came out to help get the Pro Debate Tour off the ground. Specifically, Aaron Kall who got up early after staying up very late running the TOC to come and judge; Kenda Cunningham who delayed her departure from Lexington to judge a round; and Will Repko who made himself available all day Tuesday to judge. Mike Kloster has put in a TON of work on our website and flew in Monday night just to be available to help however he could .... well he did steal some cites too ....A big thank you to all who have been emailing me ways to make the events better or more accessible. Keep that info coming. I'm working as hard as I can to make sure the PDT will thrive. And, finally, to the competitors. A lot of people have talked trash about what they would do when Pro Debate became a reality but only the people in Lexington stepped up and did more than talk. I had a lot of fun and the people who watched and competed indicated to me that they too enjoyed the occassion. I can't wait for the Atlanta event which will take place June 14-5! I hope to see you there! Tim Mahoney Director, Pro Debate Tour www.prodebatetour.com 214-734-3673 972-726-8852 (home) 425-740-9130 fax email: prodebatetour at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/eb6e4c01/attachment.html From beth Thu May 8 14:20:38 2003 From: beth (Beth Skinner) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:20:38 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Hey Old-Timers Message-ID: <1052421638.3ebaae0657e4a@dalchemy.com> ... I guess that means if you're over 25 or so. Brenda Logue who coached and taught here at Towson is retiring -- below is a message requesting remembrances for her retirement shindig. If you know Brenda, remember coming to CEDA Nationals when it was here, etc. please drop Audra a line at acolvert at towson.edu. Thanks, Beth Dear Colleagues Please help me honor my colleague! After 32 years as a faculty member and many years as a forensics coach at Towson University, Brenda Logue is retiring. Brenda was the coach at Towson from 1971 through the early 1990's. Brenda hosted two National Individual Events Tournaments at Towson and CEDA Nationals. She also initiated CEDA Novice Nationals, and then CEDA Junior Varsity Nationals. Her dedication to the students were outstanding. I am collecting stories about Brenda's years as a coach, colleague, and friend. If you would like to drop me a line, I will make sure to include your thoughts in a book honoring her career. We are honoring her on May 31 at a speech and debate alumni reunion dinner. Also, please pass this email on to other retired forensics coaches in your department who remember working with Brenda. Thank you Audra Colvert Audra L. Colvert, Ph.D Mass Comm. & Communication Studies 8000 York Road Towson University Towson, MD 21252 (410) 704-3605 W (410) 704-3656 F Beth Skinner Towson Debate MCCS Dept. Towson University 8000 York Road Towson, MD 21252 410.704.5354 (o) 410.704.5793 (f) 410.583.8075 (h) 443.562.2269 (m) From beth Thu May 8 14:42:29 2003 From: beth (Beth Skinner) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:42:29 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] New Director at Towson Message-ID: <1052422949.3ebab325900f2@dalchemy.com> I am pleased to announce that Towson has a new Director of Speech and Debate. Darren Goins, who competed for Emory and is now finishing grad school at Louisiana State, will be heading up the coaching staff beginning in August. Chris and I both look forward to working with Darren and we value the energy he brings both to the college debate and individual events programs and also to our high school, middle school and international projects. I'd like to take this chance to thank Ken Broda-Bahm, our outgoing director, for his years of service to our program but also to the entire community. Ken's scholarly publications have been staples for those reading argument theory (he even had a fan club of CUA debaters ask to pose for a picture with them at one BUDL tournament last year). He has also served the community in a number of other functions, including as editor of Contemporary Argumentation and Debate and as a leader in promoting international debate programs. Ken is moving on to a practice in litigation consulting in Denver where he will have better opportunities for skiing plus the money to buy the lift-tickets. Thanks and we'll miss you. Beth Beth Skinner Towson Debate MCCS Dept. Towson University 8000 York Road Towson, MD 21252 410.704.5354 (o) 410.704.5793 (f) 410.583.8075 (h) 443.562.2269 (m) From aogletree Thu May 8 14:43:13 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:43:13 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] US Army Violates Bioweapons Convention Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/85f5cfc4/attachment.htm From richarddebate Thu May 8 15:43:40 2003 From: richarddebate (Rich debate) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] EU Links In-Reply-To: <20030508160002.23302.72410.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <20030508204340.83172.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> EU Official and Resource Links www.geocities.com/fairgroundus Official Resource Links -U.S. State Dept. Treaties and Agreements -European Union Online Official Portal Site -European Paliment Web Server -EU Mission Committee in the U.S. Website -EU Mission Research Tools -Council of the EU -Western EU -Court of Justice of The European Communities -European Community Biodiversity Convention -EU European Commission Health and Consumer Protection Directorate General -European Community of Consumer Cooperatives EU Related Sites -Basic EU Resources(EU Info/Treaties/Databases) -EU Info Links -European Community Studies Association -EU Information Resource Page(Berkley) -EU Official Magazine -CORTIS EU Current Events Research Service - Treaty Establishing the European Community(Preceeded the EU) Misc. Links - UN Convention on Climate Change -Environ. Treaties and Resource Indicators -Office for Harminization in the International Market(EU Emphasis) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From theonlykellen Thu May 8 19:26:04 2003 From: theonlykellen (kellen mcaffee) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 00:26:04 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate Tour... Fight Club? Message-ID: finally, full contact debate! "And, finally, to the competitors. A lot of people have talked trash about what they would do when Pro Debate became a reality but only the people in Lexington stepped up and did more than talk." _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Thu May 8 20:22:47 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 01:22:47 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Dear Mr. Vice-President Cheney, Message-ID: We have just got news of a terrible deception uncovered through the correspondence of Represetative Waxman of California with the Army Corps of Engineers and members of the Defense Department. A record of the entire correspondence can be found @ http://www.house.gov/reform/min/inves_admin/admin_contracts.htm The alarming news that debaters around the country both collegiate and high school and their professional coaches would love to see you publicly answer concern a conflict of interest between your role as an elected official and your role as a former executive with the corporation named Halliburton and its subsidiaries. I encourage all high school and collegiate debaters on the relevant list-servs to contact the Vice-President either by forwarding this email onto vice.president at whitehouse.gov or calling 202-456-111 or you can jam his fax machine @ 202 456 2461 and directly asking the office of the Vice-President questions about the Halliburton/Iraqi oil contact. i encourage debaters to inform all of their friends and spread this information with the request to directly contact the Vice-President and drill him over his Halliburton role and makes this truly an issue of public deliberation. contact your local newspapers. i hope that Michael Moore who has been CCed along with you makes this relevant information in his upcoming documentary produced by Icon Productions called 911 Degrees Fahrenheit: The Temperature at which Freedom Burns. All of us will be watching to see how you respond if not to this debate list-serv then in the newspapers when journalists start asking the same relevant questions. so far, on the debate list-serv called edebate @ www.ndtceda.com Republican hacks have totally dodged the Cheney/Halliburton conflict of interest bullet and have not even tried to articulate a public defense of this nightmare. i encourage any debater to point out a semblance of a defense despite repeated challenges to the political integrity of a man who has pushed for a war to make money for himself. 1) Halliburton supposedly got their $7 billion contract with NO COMPETITION to "put out oil well fires" and "and related repair activities". Why was such a large contract awarded WITHOUT COMPETITION if you did not use your political influence steamroll through the contract? 2) The May 6 letter from Waxman to Flowers refers to statements from General Flowers on May 2 indicating that, despite public testimonies to the contrary by your "former" company Halliburton that still pays you exorbitant sums of money annually, the scope of the uncontested Halliburton contract with the US Federal Government includes the ability to "PUMP AND DISTRIBUTE IRAQI OIL". For 5 weeks since the contract was publicly announced, the American people were led to believe that the contract only included "putting out oil well fires, assessing fire damage and repairing equipment damaged by fire". Why did it take the political integrity of a US House Representative to ask specific questions to the appropriate agencies for this IMPORTANT PIECE OF INFORMATION TO COME OUT 5 weeks later after the war is over? Does it have anything to do with your inability to professionally manage a conflict of interest BETWEEN PUBLIC POLICY AND PRIVATE BUSINESS that THIS FACT has been hidden from the American people and their elected officials or with your desperate desire to stay in the VP role on the 2004 Republican Ticket despite internal Republican pressure for you to be replaced by Rice or another who is not nearly as vulnerable to an election scandal that could spoil Republican chances in 2004? It appears that your administration deliberately lied about the Halliburton contract to protect you and them from poignant critiques of your financial interest in starting a war with Iraq at least at the level of large campaign contribution "kickbacks" from Halliburton if not indirectly into your bank account. Again, the posture of this Bush Administration appears to be painfully ANTI-DEBATE and PRO-SECRECY with no public account of why the nature and scope of the Halliburton contract were concealed for 5 weeks until after the war when public deliberation of the contract is less relevant than BEFORE or even at the time the contract was initiated. These are breaking developments and you are being held publicly accountable. I echo the recent quote of the President from Isaiah Chapter 61: "To the captives, 'come out,' and to those in darkness, 'be free." It is time for you to stop hiding Mr. Cheney. Is there any other plausible motive for public deception regarding contractual Halliburton rights to pump and distribute Iraqi oil than your "CLOSE TIES TO HALLIBURTON"? Imagine that you are in the shoes of a "regular" American like me. It looks awful. I want you to tell me what has happened and why before edebate and young debaters hungry to you tap dance on this one. Just send it to edebate at ndtceda.com if you are not afraid to answer. I quote from Waxman's most recent letter in response to Flowers on this issue dated May 6 of this year: "Your May 2 letter indicates that the contract is considerably broader in scope than previously known. Prior descriptions of the Halliburton contract had indicated that the contract was for extinguishing fires at oil wells and for related repair activities. It now appears, however, that the contract with Halliburton--A COMPANY WITH CLOSE TIES TO THE ADMINISTRATION (caps are mine and i add "ESPECIALLY DICK CHENEY WHO STILL GETS PAID BY HALLIBURTON")--can include "operation" of Iraqi oil fields and "distribution" of Iraqi oil... Information about the contract with Halliburton has been released by the Administration in dribs and drabs. The contract was issued to Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, WITHOUT COMPETITION on March 8. However, the existence of the contract was not announced until March 24, and the Corps did not disclose until April 8 that the contract had a potential value of up to $7 billion.1 Moreover, it was not until your May 2 letter, which I received late on Friday afternoon, that the Corps revealed that the scope of the contract includes "operation of facilities" and "distribution of products." Only now, over five weeks after the contract was first disclosed, are members of Congress and the public learning that Halliburton may be asked to pump and distribute oil under contract. The Brown & Root contract was first disclosed by Halliburton on March 24. The information provided by Halliburton at that time gave no indication that the contract could include operation of Iraqi oil fields. The company press release annoucing the contract was titled "KBR Implements Plan for Extinguishing Oil Well Fires in Iraq."2 That press release described the contract as "assessing and extinguishing oil well fires in Iraq and evaluating and repairing, as directed by the U.S. government, the country's petroleum infrastructure." In a one-page description of the contract that your office provided me, the Corps generally confirmed this description. According to the Corps release, the Corps was in charge of "implementation of plans to extinguish oil well fires and to assess oil facility damage in Iraq" and would be contracting with Brown & Root to perform these functions."3 -------------------------- 1 Letter from Lt. Gen. Robert B. Flowers, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, to Rep. Henry A. Waxman (Apr. 8, 2003). 2 Halliburton, KBR Implements Plans for Extinguishing Oil Well Fires in Iraq (Mar. 24, 2003). 3 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, The Corps of Engineers' Role in Combatting Iraqi Oil Fires (undated). end of first quotation from Waxman letter 3) General Flowers has started rumors contrary to the public position of the Bush Administration on WHO OWNS IRAQI OIL, American/British petro corporations or the Iraqi people. According to General Flowers of the Army Corps of Engineers, apparently in an effort to downplay the Halliburton role of pumping and distributing Iraqi oil, the Halliburton contract will be replaced by another long-term contract and corporations are currently being solicited to pump and distribute Iraqi oil over the long-term. Has your puppet Chalabhi already signed over Iraqi oil rights to the US government prior to having been "shoved down our throats" (to quote Colin Powell) as the new "elected" leader of Iraq unbeknownst to the American or the Iraqi people? Again, I quote the most recent Waxman letter that has got Flowers, who seems to be unable to keep his big mouth shut, and your Administration in a veritable pickle: "Besides shedding new light on the contract with Brown & Root, the May 2 letter indicates that the Corps is in the process of preparing a proposal for a long-term contract to replace the existing Brown & Root contact. According to the letter, the Corps is "completing the competitive acquisition strategy and plan, preparing the statement of their work, and preparing the solicitation that will request proposals to perform the work." The May 2 letter states that this new contract will also authorize the contractor to operate oil facilities and distribute oil products. The contract with Halliburton and the planned successor contract raise significant questions about the Administration's intentions regarding Iraqi oil. The Administration has previously drawn a bright-line on Iraqi oil: according to White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, "[t]he oil fields of Iraq belong to the people of Iraq, the government of Iraq, all of Iraq. All the resources of Iraq need to be administered by the Iraqi government."7 Likewise, Secretary of State Colin Powell has said that "[t]he oil of Iraq belongs to the Iraqi people."8 And Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has reiterated that Iraqi oil "belongs to the Iraqi people."9 In light of these statements, I am puzzled as to why the Corps is actively preparing a solicitation for a long-term contract to produce and distribute Iraqi oil. That contract would clearly seem to contradict Mr. Fleischer's statement that the "oil fields belong to the people of Iraq." In fact, such a contract would apparently mean that Halliburton or another similar company--AND NOT THE IRAQI PEOPLE--would be making fundamental decisions on how much should be produced and who should produce it... While Iraqis may need American help in the short-term to rebuild the country's oil infrastructure, it is less clear whether they need or want an outside company to produce and distribute their oil on a long-term basis. Indeed, press reports have already described TENSIONS BETWEEN IRAQI OIL MANAGERS AND AMERICANS,11 as well as FRUSTRATION AMONG IRAQI OIL WORKERS UNABLE TO RESUME THEIR JOBS.12 Some Iraqi oil workers are apparently DISSATISFIED with the pace of the work done by Brown & Root and with the THE LACK OF CONSULTATION ABOUT HOW TO REBUILD AND OPERATE THE COUNTRY'S OIL INFRASTRUCTURE.13 The Administration's decision to appoint a FORMER AMERICAN OIL EXECUTIVE TO CHAIR AN ADVISORY BOARD OVERSEEING THE IRAQI OIL MINISTRY may well increase the perception among some Iraqis that they are not being given FULL CONTROL over the resources that the Administration previously indicated belonged to them.14 THERE APPEARS TO BE A CONFLICT BETWEEN THE ADMINISTRATION'S STATEMENTS OF INTENT (THAT THE OIL BELONGS TO THE IRAQIS) AND ITS ACTIONS (ISSUING CONTRACTS TO U.S. COMPANIES LIKE HALLIBURTON TO PRODUCE AND DISTRIBUTE THE OIL). THIS CONFLICT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED BY THE ADMINISTRATION IN A FORTHRIGHT MANNER.' -------------------------------------- 7 White House, Press Briefing by Ari Fleischer (Feb. 6, 2003). 8 "Powell Says U.S. Not After Iraqi Oil," Los Angeles Times (Jan. 23, 2003). 9 NewsHour, PBS (Feb. 20, 2003) 11 "New Drill: Inside Iraq's Giant Oil Industry, Maze of Management Tensions," Wall Street Journal (Apr. 30, 2003); "Getting Iraq back into the Flow", Washington Post (May 6, 2003). 12 "At Iraqi Oil Plant, Bitterness and Frustration", Washington Post (Apr. 30, 2003). 13 Id. 14 Details about the board's authority have apparently not yet been revealed. "Three Get Top Posts to Revive Iraqi Oil Flow," New York Times (May 4, 2003); "U.S. Names Iraqi as Team Leader of Oil Operations," Wall Street Journal (May 5, 2003). -------------------------------------- end of second quotation from Waxman letter 4) WHY DID YOU LIE ABOUT ILLEGAL TIES TO SADDAM HUSSEIN DURING THE 2000 ELECTION? this a fourth claim not addressed by Rep. Waxman. According to Jason Leopold and reported in places like The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, Nightline and the Sunday Herald, Dick Cheney LIED during the 2000 election campaing about playing a key role in rebuilding Iraq oil infrastructure in the mid to late 90s directly facilitating evil Saddam Hussein acquiring the cash to buy so-called Weapons of Mass Destruction. You oversaw the acquisition of Dresser Industries and the joint venture with the Ingersoll-Rand Co. You then started to complain about strict sanctions when Halliburton started to become less and less economically viable under your control. AND THEN YOU VIOLATED US SANCTIONS WITH IRAQ AND TRADED WITH THE ENEMY and LIED ON TOP OF THAT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR DISGRACEFUL INVOLVEMENT IN IRAQ'S REAQUISITION OF WMDS. NEW UN RECORDS DETAIL THE EXTENT OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN REBUILDING SADDAM'S OIL INFRASTRUCTURE DURING SANCTIONS. the counterpunch article makes the case for your removal from office for perjury: http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold03202003.html "It was only five years ago when Vice President Dick Cheney, as chief executive of the oil-field supply corporation, Halliburton Co., was engaged in secret business dealings with Saddam's regime by selling Iraq oil production equipment and spare parts to get the Iraqi oil fields up and running, according to confidential United Nations records. During the 2000 presidential campaign, Cheney adamantly denied such dealings. While he acknowledged that his company did business with Libya and Iran through foreign subsidiaries, Cheney said, "Iraq's different." He claimed that he imposed a "firm policy" prohibiting any unit of Halliburton against trading with Iraq. "I had a firm policy that we wouldn't do anything in Iraq, even arrangements that were supposedly legal," Cheney said on the ABC-TV news program "This Week" on July 30, 2000. "We've not done any business in Iraq since U.N. sanctions were imposed on Iraq in 1990, and I had a standing policy that I wouldn't do that." But it turns out that Cheney was lying. It's only through the sale of Iraqi oil that Saddam would be able to afford to obtain such weapons. If Saddam was in fact building nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction, which some news reports allege could be used against American and British troops, Cheney is partially responsible. The Washington Post first reported Halliburton's trade with Iraq in February 2000. But U.N. records obtained by The Post two years ago showed that the dealings were more extensive than originally reported and than Vice President Cheney has acknowledged. As secretary of defense in the first Bush administration, Cheney helped to lead a multinational coalition against Iraq in the Persian Gulf War and to devise a comprehensive economic embargo to isolate Saddam Hussein's government. After Cheney was named chief executive of Halliburton in 1995, he promised to maintain a hard line against Baghdad. But his stance changed when it appeared that Halliburton was headed for financial disaster in the mid-1990s. Cheney said sanctions against countries such as Iraq were hurting corporations such as Halliburton. "We seem to be sanction-happy as a government," Cheney said at an energy conference in April 1996, reported in the oil industry publication Petroleum Finance Week. "The problem is that the good Lord didn't see fit to always put oil and gas resources where there are democratic governments," he observed during his conference presentation. Sanctions make U.S. businesses "the bystander who gets hit when a train wreck occurs," Cheney told Petroleum Finance Week. "While virtually every other country sees the need for sanctions against Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime there, Cheney sees general agreement that the measures have not been very effective despite their having most of the international community's support. An individual country's embargo, such as that of the United States against Iran, has virtually no effect since the target country simply signs a contract with a non- U.S. business," the publication reported "That's exactly what happened when the government told Conoco Inc. that it could not develop an oil field there," Cheney told Petroleum Finance Week. Total S.A. "simply took it over." In 1998, Cheney oversaw Halliburton's acquisition of Dresser Industries Inc., the unit that sold oil equipment to Iraq through two subsidiaries of a joint venture with another large U.S. equipment maker, Ingersoll-Rand Co. The Halliburton subsidiaries, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co., sold water and sewage treatment pumps, spare parts for oil facilities and pipeline equipment to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000, U.N. records show. Ingersoll Dresser Pump also signed contracts -- later blocked by the United States -- to help repair an Iraqi oil terminal that U.S.-led military forces destroyed in the GGulf War, the Post reported in a June 2001 story. The Halliburton subsidiaries and several other American and foreign oil supply companies helped Iraq increase its crude exports from $4 billion in 1997 to nearly $18 billion in 2000. Since the program began, Iraq has exported oil worth more than $40 billion. U.S. and European officials have argued that the increase in production also expanded Saddam's ability to use some of that money for weapons, luxury goods and palaces. Security Council diplomats estimate that Iraq may be skimming off as much as 10 percent of the proceeds from the oil-for-food program, according to the Post. During his tenure as chief executive of Halliburton, Cheney pushed the U.N. Security Council, after he became vice president; to end an 11-year embargo on sales of civilian goods, including oil related equipment, to Iraq. Cheney has said sanctions against countries like Iraq unfairly punish U.S. companies. Earlier this year, Halliburton was chosen as one of the companies to rebuild Iraq's dilapidated oil fields following a U.S. led attack on the country. U.N. documents show that Halliburton's affiliates have had controversial, dealings with the Iraqi regime during Cheney's tenure at the company. The Clinton administration blocked one of the deals Halliburton was trying to push through. That deal, between Halliburton subsidiary Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co. and Iraq, included agreements by the firm to sell $760,000 in spare parts, compressors and firefighting equipment to refurbish an offshore oil terminal, Khor al Amaya. The Clinton administration blocked the sale because it was "not authorized under the oil-for-food deal," according to U.N. documents. Under the oil-for-food program, Iraq is allowed to export crude oil and the money is supposed to be used to help remove some of the hardships on Iraqi civilians affected by the U.N. sanctions." end of only counterpunch quotation we appreciate your time Mr. Cheney in dealing with this issue and clarifying for Americans and Iraqis the true nature of your relationship with Halliburton and Iraqi oil over the years. it may be time for you to disappear from the public eye like you did in 2002 when Halliburton's Cayman tax-evasion scheme that you oversaw was exposed. thank you and goodnight, Jack Stroube _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pdf_admin_halliburton_contrac#0 Type: application/pdf Size: 927547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/0057e6b1/attachment.pdf From mmk_savant Thu May 8 20:27:38 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:27:38 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans McAffee Message-ID: the first rule of pro debate tour is... don't argue about pro debate tour. Korcok -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/0fa1b4e7/attachment.htm From mmk_savant Thu May 8 22:19:50 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:19:50 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Saddam and Sons and human rights Message-ID: 1. the newest on MSNBC today, May 8, from NEWSWEEK: ( http://www.msnbc.com/news/910934.asp?0cl=c1 ) "The Committee's view is that Saddam Hussein's regime slaughtered 8 million people; in a country of 25 million that's a pretty extreme estimate. "Hitler was a minor student in the school of Saddam, and not a very good student by comparison," Idrisi said. "Just in my small family, my cousin was in prison, my father, brother, and five or six other cousins disappeared," he said. Saleh agreed. "No family in Iraq is without its missing. My brother, too. Still I haven't reached his grave, but I saw the file." Challenging such over-the-top figures provokes annoyance among the Committee members. "How can we have 8 million? I'll show you." Saleh produces an armful of fat file folders. "Look at this one. Look at the file number." It's stamped TOP SECRET, labeled Department of General Security, Branch 45, File No. 12584. Branch 45 specialized in the banned Shiite group Al Dawa. This is a case file concerning one Satter Jaber Meslain, an investigation that lasted from 1981-1983. As the result of his confession and other investigative leads that his interrogation produced, 55 persons are implicated; all are listed here as condemned to death on one page, and then, on a paper dated hours later, confirmed "hanged by a rope until dead." On the front of the file folio is a strip of computer stickers, the kind used to track inventory, bearing the number 507989493; they seem to be file locators. "Look how big that number is. It was indescribable what they did. There are millions of files, millions." He pulls out another, quite similar file, Branch 45, File No. 1055. An investigation into one person, led to 54 persons executed. And a third file, 28 executed. And a fourth, 26 executed. The floor next to his desk is stacked high with these; and that's just this day's work." 2. as to the claims that the Bush Administration didn't argue that the coalition should liberate Iraq because of Saddam and Sons' human rights record, it just ignores many and detailed texts which made precisely that argument. like a lousy interventionist judge pretending to have forgotten several pages of the flow. the page that contained the flow of the British Dossier on Human Rights in Iraq, from December 2002 for example? http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2002/12/02/hrdossierenglish.pdf the page that contained the liberal Brookings Institution justification for liberation based on human rights 3 days before the war? http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text2003/0314plck.htm every single speech by George W. Bush, Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and Colin Powell reminded those who bothered to hear that Saddam Hussein was the most horrific dictator of our time. i haven't found a single reported discussion of more than a couple of paragraphs from any of the above about Iraq in which that justification isn't mentioned. this was one of the last paragraphs of Colin Powell's UN presentation of March 6, by the way: "If we fail to meet our responsibilities, the credibility of this Council and its ability to deal with all the critical challenges we face will suffer. As we sit here, let us not forget the horror still going on in Iraq, with a spare moment to remember the suffering Iraqi people whose treasure is spent on these kinds of programs and not for their own benefit; people who are being beaten, brutalized and robbed by Saddam and his regime." finally, it is true that the justifications for Iraqi liberation that got the most attention were the WMDs and terrorism justifications. but that happened primarily because of insistence that the US get a UN resolution for the liberation of Iraq and the only promising avenues to get the Security Council on board were WMDs and terrorism. there wasn't any chance at all, ever, for the US to get the Security Council to agree to a human rights justification for regime change in Iraq. 3. as to the claim that those on edebate who supported the war didn't do so for human rights reasons, it just isn't so. in every mention that i have made of Iraq over the past year of Iraqi WMDs or terrorism, i have ALSO mentioned the atrocities of Saddam and Sons. in any case, SURELY you did not miss the most excellent arguments of Jeff Parcher on this issue. i certainly did not and considered them a clean justification for Iraqi liberation. for your reference: http://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0003.html http://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0047.html http://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0014.html 4. finally, the best-argued case against war that i read last year was this: War Against Iraq: costs, consequences, and alternatives ( http://www.amacad.org/publications/monographs/War_with_Iraq.pdf ) i re-read it recently, going through the checklist of objections (disads) that the authors presented as potential costs and their list of alternatives. i think even the authors would have to conclude that none of those scenarios happened to any substantial degree. if you get a few minutes, give it a read to see just how spectacular the Bush Administration's liberation of Iraq was. look folks, there is no shame in admitting even egregious error. the road to recovery begins with facing one's failings. you're welcome, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030508/4a2fc612/attachment.html From jackattack7 Thu May 8 23:29:41 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 04:29:41 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] VP letter typos+IMPORTANT additions Message-ID: the following sentences stand to be corrected for minor errors. 1) "I encourage all high school and collegiate debaters on the relevant list-servs to contact the Vice-President either by forwarding this email onto vice.president at whitehouse.gov or calling 202-456-111 or you can jam his fax machine @ 202 456 2461 and directly asking the office of the Vice-President questions about the Halliburton/Iraqi oil contract." the original sentence had "contact" as the final word. 2) "Why was such a large contract awarded WITHOUT COMPETITION if you did not use your political influence to steamroll through the contract?" the original sentence lacked the word "to". 3) "I want you to tell me what has happened and why before edebate and young debaters hungry to see you tap dance on this one." the original sentence lacked "see". 4) "this a fourth claim not addressed by Rep. Waxman. According to Jason Leopold and reported in places like The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, Nightline and the Sunday Herald, Dick Cheney LIED during the 2000 election campaign about playing a key role in rebuilding Iraq oil infrastructure in the mid to late 90s directly facilitating evil Saddam Hussein acquiring the cash to buy so-called Weapons of Mass Destruction." the word 'campaign' was misspelled. 5) the may 6 waxman letter to flowers was sent as an email attachment. dick cheney has officially received a copy of the letter exposing the halliburton contract lie and has been asked to respond to waxman's concerns to debaters concerned about eviscerating standards of public deliberation. apologies. ps. further clarification of the implications of the concealed contract have emerged. a) payments from halliburton to mr. cheney continue to flow as deferred compensation for a lump sum termination fee to be delivered over 5 years at around a million dollars per year. apparently, cheney chose this publically compromising position of receiving payment from a company that is awarded major contracts WITHOUT COMPETITION to save money on his taxes. if we all had such a luxury of the millionaires running the country. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,912515,00.html b) technically, cheney can not be linked to current profits from Halliburton's reported finances to the IRS but his blurring of public/private lines are sure to at least end up in his hands via campaign contribution kickbacks for receiving uncontested oil contracts. how much has halliburton contributed to your campaign so far? c) the point is that he is on the payroll and Halliburton "won" a contract worth up to $7 billion with ZERO COMPETITION from other companies shirley interested and who probably pay their taxes unlike Halliburton. Mr. Cheney has nothing to do with DOD contract awards but his former company that still pays him $1 million a year recently got the biggest oil contract award without solicitation of competitors. d) lastly, i think a congressional investigation into Halliburton's offshore bank accounts in the Cayman Islands established by Cheney himself is necessary to prove that Cheney has not directly profited from the war, i.e. the money may not be showing up on his tax returns but may be waiting for Cheney in the Caribbean or in Switzerland? i hope that Representative Waxman is listening. the congressional investigation is necessary due to suspicions raised by the default award of a contract without competition. Cheney?s involvement in creating off-shore tax-havens was questioned by many in 2002 and Cheney quickly disappeared from public eye because administration answers did not satisfy public opinion. if the 2004 election had been in 2002, Cheney most likely would have been removed from the ticket and replaced by Rice or someoneelse given his disappearing act in 2002 unavailable to reporters. it would probably be wise to retract the decision to keep him on the ticket since the same embarrassing issues are now reemerging. http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/615 quote: ?Let's start by looking at the problem of the vice president and Halliburton. During the number two's time as the company's number one, the number of Halliburton subsidiaries registered in tax-friendly locations ballooned from nine in 1995 to 44 in 1999. The result? A dramatic drop in Halliburton's federal taxes, which fell from $302 million in 1998 to less than zero -- to wit, an $85 million rebate -- in 1999. At the same time they were hard at work stiffing U.S. taxpayers, Cheney and Halliburton were happily feasting at the public trough -- the company received $2.3 billion in government contracts and another $1.5 billion in government financing and loan guarantees. During the vice-presidential debate, Cheney scored points responding to a Joe Lieberman zinger about the millions Cheney had made during the Clinton-Gore years by boasting that "the government had absolutely nothing to do" with his burgeoning bank account. Only someone fully immersed in the corporate culture of our day could view $3.8 billion as "absolutely nothing." unquote Mr. Waxman, the conclusion of the article is most relevant to the proposed Congressional investigation. Quote: ?We should bar the government from signing contracts with any corporation that has moved offshore to avoid paying U.S. taxes. Period. And we should go further and not enter into any contracts with any company that has been fined for ripping off taxpayers. Like the president said last year, you're either with us, or you're against us. I'd love to know if this is the kind of "accountability" Dick Cheney was referring to. If you happen to find yourself at a GOP fundraiser, would you mind asking him?? unquote A year or so later, it is time to put the Halliburton offshore tax evasion embarrassment together with the unfolding Halliburton Iraqi oil contract fiasco and find out for sure whether or not Dick Cheney has received payments from Halliburton profits off the war. The article make explicit the claim that the government should not be allowed to do business with tax evading companies like Halliburton. I assert that such business is bad business because it could theoretically enable the Vice-President of the United States to use all of his political capital to start a war to make money that he would receive through hidden Caymans accounts with layers of deniability to shield himself from public accountability and a Congress too weak to investigate despite deliberate deception about the nature of a major iraq war contract. If the Vice-President was really smart he would not have tried to merely obfuscate with official tax returns but instead would have barred Halliburton from receiving the contract. The Vice-President?s negligence on the contract claiming transparent layers of deniability is insufficient and has opened up Halliburton to Congressional investigation into their sketchy offshore accounts that hide their financial transactions. Everybody knows about the Caymans accounts. What are you thinking or are you thinking, Mr. Vice-President? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 9 04:27:22 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 04:27:22 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Saddam and Sons and human rights Message-ID: Korcok writes: "finally, the best-argued case against war that i read last year was this: War Against Iraq: costs, consequences, and alternatives (www.amacad.org/publications/monographs/War_with_Iraq.pdf ) i re-read it recently, going through the checklist of objections (disads) that the authors presented as potential costs and their list of alternatives. i think even the authors would have to conclude that none of those scenarios happened to any substantial degree. if you get a few minutes, give it a read to see just how spectacular the Bush Administration's liberation of Iraq was." a few comments: first, the time-frame here is inaccurate - the war with Irak and the consequences of the invasion/occupation are on-going, and many of the 'disad'-scenarios the aforementioned authors delineate are yet to be decided. for instance, were Iraki WMDs given/sold to terrorist organizations prior to the conflict? and will the war provoked further anti-Amerikan terrorism? since the bush administration has opted for unilateral military occupation, many things could still go very wrong and the usa will have to shoulder the brunt of the blame. and if those who opposed the war would've had to accept responsibility for subsequent iraki aggression and atrocity, then it seems fair to hold pro-war advocates responsible if a terrorist disperses anthrax throughout new york tomorrow with agent begotten from saddam's former stocks. second, the essay's title lies in that there's no consideration of 'alternatives' - the only other option the authors provide is 'containment'. though this was the reason that many old-skool conservatives and realist foreign-policy theorists (i'm thinking specifically of robert novak and john miesheimer) opposed (and still oppose) the war, discussion of other idealist and internationalist alternatives was sorely lacking. many think that capitalism inherently erodes dictatorships, and that a policy of openness works best (for instance, with china and the ussr - i read someone not too long ago who argued that MTV was a major contributing factor to the fall of the berlin wall). many also thought that the usa would've been able to use the kofi annan doctrine of humanitarian intervention, had the administration not focused on 'disarmament', but instead set a precedent for humyn rights justifications for toppling dictators (but of course some consistency would've been required, and perhaps the usa would have had to sign the icc treaty as a concession). thirdly, however, i think there needed to be a military discussion about the best ways to carry out 'regime change' and which methods would've been most effective and most ethical. the paper in question defaults to the administration position and in seeking to offer an opposing viewpoint refuses to consider any middle ground. as i've said before, supporting opposition groups seemed to me the only way to accomplish a genuine self-liberation - a proposition to which i've yet to hear an adequate response for the self-congradulatory war-mongerers. so the 'game' is most certainly not 'over'. .k _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From aogletree Fri May 9 07:55:12 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:55:12 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Trouble in Bush's America Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/29eec2c1/attachment.htm From QLTiersky Fri May 9 08:35:26 2003 From: QLTiersky (QLTiersky at aol.com) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 09:35:26 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate Tour contestants Message-ID: <3F175811.31832F27.0257AA48@aol.com> So, who were the teams? I'm not asking about records or anything, but I am curious as to who ultimately came to play. From mmk_savant Fri May 9 11:00:36 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:00:36 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper (again) Message-ID: right. the words "the debate has always been about the means and not the ends" squirm out of Cooper's mouth, covered in slime. Cooper is correct only in the sense that almost universally the "means" advocated by the opponents of the liberation of Iraq was "do nothing and blame the US". that "means" would have done nothing to obtain the "ends" of regime change, "ends" that the opponents of the liberation of Iraq ALSO opposed. even now, the flavor of it is captured by Cooper's rhetoric that "Saddam's also pretty mean to his people...". "PRETTY MEAN?!?!?!" you clueless moron. you and the other appeasers did not argue that Saddam and Sons were the most horrific dictators of our time: the most you did was argue "okay, Saddam isn't the NICEST guy, granted, BUT the United States is EEEEVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLLL, George Bush is HITLER, war will not be in MY name!" after PRODDING for weeks for alternatives from you all to what actually WAS done, i got: Sanchez: more troops recruited from opposition groups in Iraq/support Shiites and Kurds to overthrow by themselves/don't bomb in populated areas (wouldn't work to get rid of Hussein unless pretty much what Franks did anyway, no evidence fewer casualties or even civilian casualties, links to all the criticisms Sanchez has of what the US did, would have delayed unnecessarily, not substantially alternative, and all its advantages are turned by what WAS done) Cooper: Cooper's Troopers, an international gang of burly clowns armed with squirt guns to go into Baghdad and kidnap Saddam and Sons to take them to Belgium to stand trial, support democracy, support international law, and be NICE (look, NO ONE except Cooper thinks this would have had ANY substantial chance of actually WORKING, he has presented NO evidence that it would have had any reasonable chance of getting rid of Saddam and Sons, i did present evidence that they wouldn't have even been able to FIND Saddam and Sons much less capture, kidnap, and deliver them, except for the troupe of tricycle peddling mimes the rest is AMORPHOUS GOO which hasn't done squat for regime change in Iraq) Klemz: kritique and perform the geneology and archeology of US foreign policy linked to comprehensive counterfactual advocacy including but not limited to: sign the CTBT, enforce the CBW treaties, develop alternative energy sources to eliminate our imports of oil from the Middle East, have April Gillespie slap the SHIT out of Saddam's goon so even HE understands that the US won't let his invasion of Kuwait stand, not support Pahlavi in the 1970s, and, OF COURSE, the unilateral nuclear disarmament of the United States, preferably in 1941, so that nuclear bombs would not have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (okey dokey, then. NO FRIKKIN EVIDENCE that any or all of this would have done SQUAT to get rid of Saddam. and all of the similarly unevidenced turns to each provision which outweigh the shit out of the unevidenced advantages, and the perm, which is that crap and invade Iraq to effect regime change.) Stroube: several exclusionary counterplans which consist of stuff like invade but don't let those fancy pots get stolen, invade but don't make a mistake at that checkpoint and so on (he doesn't get to argue exclusionary counterplans which include any substantial portion of the liberation of Iraq because he is a gone twist) and THAT'S IT. "always been about the means and not the ends" my golden ass! apologize to the Bush administration for your stupidity, please. thanks. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/65870bfa/attachment.html From brooksar Fri May 9 08:38:20 2003 From: brooksar (Allen Brooks) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:38:20 -0100 Subject: [eDebate] Judge needed at NCFL Nationals Message-ID: <216912480.1052483900@ip241-232.sv.apartment.jmu.edu> All- Can someone cover my judging requirement at NCFL nationals in DC? I am going to be at Duke reffing the Bob Gibbons Shootout on that weekend and need someone to cover my judging requirement. Pay is excellent. Please email me back if you can do this. Thanks, Allen Brooks brooksar at jmu.edu From ccooper Fri May 9 11:40:29 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:40:29 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Korcok (again) Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A7337071143270@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Problem: We want to go to Disney Land! Coop, et.al.: The car's running out of gas...maybe we should stop and re-fill. Korcok: LA LA LA...Can't wait to see Goofy!! Coop, et. al.: Dude...really...the needle's on E. Korcok: M - I -C...K - E -Y... Coop, et. al.: We're running on fumes here Mikey. Korcok: You know...Mikey is close to Mickey...just need a C. LA LA... Car: sputter....sputter...sputter.......STOP. Korcok: NO!! Must get to Disney Land!! Coop, et. al.: Nice going, dickwad! NOW what?? Korcok: We walk. You have big clown shoes...you can walk. Coop, et. al.: I can't believe this! This SUCKS! We have to walk all the way to Disney Land in big clown shoes that hurt my feet. Korcok: Shut up! At least we'll get to Disney Land!! And I promise we can ride the tea-cups first so you can rest your feet. Coop, et. al.: Fuck the tea-cups, man...I didn't want to walk. This SUCKS! Korcok: Well....what would you have us do instead? Hitchhike? We could get killed!! Or worse...you know what a fine ass you have. Better not risk it. Coop, et. al.: FUUUUUCK!! What I *WOULD* have done is stopped and re-filled while we had the chance!! Korcok: You crazy! Clown feet! The car's dead and there's not a station in SIGHT. Coop, et. al.: Are you a moron? I mean...we should have stopped while we had the chance! Korcok: Huh? But the car's dead...it's really dumb to be arguing about getting gas NOW! Besides, we'll still get to Disney Land. I mean...that's the point, right. I LOVE GOOFY! Coop, et. al.: My feet hurt. Get away from me. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Korcok [mailto:mmk_savant at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 12:01 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] ans Cooper (again) right. the words "the debate has always been about the means and not the ends" squirm out of Cooper's mouth, covered in slime. Cooper is correct only in the sense that almost universally the "means" advocated by the opponents of the liberation of Iraq was "do nothing and blame the US". that "means" would have done nothing to obtain the "ends" of regime change, "ends" that the opponents of the liberation of Iraq ALSO opposed. even now, the flavor of it is captured by Cooper's rhetoric that "Saddam's also pretty mean to his people...". "PRETTY MEAN?!?!?!" you clueless moron. you and the other appeasers did not argue that Saddam and Sons were the most horrific dictators of our time: the most you did was argue "okay, Saddam isn't the NICEST guy, granted, BUT the United States is EEEEVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLLL, George Bush is HITLER, war will not be in MY name!" after PRODDING for weeks for alternatives from you all to what actually WAS done, i got: Sanchez: more troops recruited from opposition groups in Iraq/support Shiites and Kurds to overthrow by themselves/don't bomb in populated areas (wouldn't work to get rid of Hussein unless pretty much what Franks did anyway, no evidence fewer casualties or even civilian casualties, links to all the criticisms Sanchez has of what the US did, would have delayed unnecessarily, not substantially alternative, and all its advantages are turned by what WAS done) Cooper: Cooper's Troopers, an international gang of burly clowns armed with squirt guns to go into Baghdad and kidnap Saddam and Sons to take them to Belgium to stand trial, support democracy, support international law, and be NICE (look, NO ONE except Cooper thinks this would have had ANY substantial chance of actually WORKING, he has presented NO evidence that it would have had any reasonable chance of getting rid of Saddam and Sons, i did present evidence that they wouldn't have even been able to FIND Saddam and Sons much less capture, kidnap, and deliver them, except for the troupe of tricycle peddling mimes the rest is AMORPHOUS GOO which hasn't done squat for regime change in Iraq) Klemz: kritique and perform the geneology and archeology of US foreign policy linked to comprehensive counterfactual advocacy including but not limited to: sign the CTBT, enforce the CBW treaties, develop alternative energy sources to eliminate our imports of oil from the Middle East, have April Gillespie slap the SHIT out of Saddam's goon so even HE understands that the US won't let his invasion of Kuwait stand, not support Pahlavi in the 1970s, and, OF COURSE, the unilateral nuclear disarmament of the United States, preferably in 1941, so that nuclear bombs would not have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (okey dokey, then. NO FRIKKIN EVIDENCE that any or all of this would have done SQUAT to get rid of Saddam. and all of the similarly unevidenced turns to each provision which outweigh the shit out of the unevidenced advantages, and the perm, which is that crap and invade Iraq to effect regime change.) Stroube: several exclusionary counterplans which consist of stuff like invade but don't let those fancy pots get stolen, invade but don't make a mistake at that checkpoint and so on (he doesn't get to argue exclusionary counterplans which include any substantial portion of the liberation of Iraq because he is a gone twist) and THAT'S IT. "always been about the means and not the ends" my golden ass! apologize to the Bush administration for your stupidity, please. thanks. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/5df978e4/attachment.htm From wnewnam Fri May 9 12:39:23 2003 From: wnewnam (Bill Newnam) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:39:23 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Saddam and Sons and human rights References: Message-ID: <3EBBE7CB.65899695@emory.edu> Just a couple of quick comments. 1. Bush's initial push for intervention and his push at the UN were premised around WMD. Why? As you rightly point out, the Security Council would not go along with Human Rights as a reason. There are a variety of reasons for this including: 1. Jurisdiction 2. members would fear the precedent that it would justify intervention against others including perhaps themselves. 3. the Legal argument framed by Bush and company was that UN resolutions needed to be enforced, not human rights issues. 4. It would worsen the case against Israel, given its violation of UN resolutions pertaining specifically to Human rights including the occupation of territories and the treatment of innocent Palestinians. You ignore the most important argument made thus far, however. Which is that Bush needed the wmd excuse to generate AMERICAN support for the intervention. 1. Human rights would not justify risking American lives to the American public. 2. It would violate his own campaign rhetoric. Americ is overstretched, he said, because we are busy with these peacekeeping operations all around the world, like Bosnia, a human rights intervention lambasted by Republicans even while the war was going on (just like Daschle) 3. The only thing that could justify his argument that 911 changed the equation was not human rights, but WMD threats. Face it, Human Rights was mentioned as I mentioned previously, but it was not, as they say, the dealmaker. WMD generated enough fear in the American public to generate sufficient support for the war. Human rights was an afterthought. Finally, there are several questions remaining: 1. Was it right for Bush to deceive the public by taking advantage of the fact that nearly half of Americans polled thought that Iraqis (not Saudis) flew the planes that attacked the WTC and the Pentagon? 2. Was it right for Bush to deceive the public by taking advantage of the fact that nearly half of Americans thought Saddam Hussein was responsible for 911? (Even in his post war address he layered that connection into his speech) 3. Was it right for Bush to generate or at least use false information to justify the war (including the British Dossier you cite below)? 4. Is it okay, as Duane Hyland contends, to lie to the American public to get them to support the intervention on one ground, even if they would oppose it on the grounds that it is being justified on now? In short, does the ends, human rights abuse in Iraq, justify the means (ignoring American democratic principles domestically)? As for you contention that the bad stuff predicted has not come to pass, you are correct that many of the bad things expected to come to pass did not come true: 1. American soldiers did not die in mass attacks in the streets of Baghdad. We are all grateful that this did not happen despite predictions from conservatives and liberals alike, military and civilians alike. 2. Iraq did not use CBW's as the CIA predicted they would. 3. The rest of the Arab world has (of yet) not created vast problems due to the war. However, these three points raise three other issues: 1. American soldiers are being attacked (and some are dying) almost everyday in Iraq as we try to create order out of the pure anarchy that we created. Untrained american soldiers are trying to be peacekeepers (that dreaded concept Bush opposed before the last election). 2. The American responsibility to stay in Iraq could drag on for years to come creating targets and generating more anger and hostility while we are there. And this too could yet spillover to other Arab nations. 3. Why was the CIA wrong that Iraq did not use wmd's on American troops? is it because they did not have them or because they dispersed them? On the one hand, it means we gave the wrong primary premise for going to war or on the other, that the war caused them to be dispersed to other places where we have no ability to control their use and no one to hold to account if they are used (meaning we have less control over Iraqi WMD's if they did exist then we did when they existed--no deterrence and no containment.) At a minimum two other questions are raised: 1. Do you feel it was right for Bush to argue before the election that Clinton had allowed the military to degenerate so badly that we could not do what we just did? 2. Was it right for Bush to say that we have to cutback on overseas deployments such as Bosnia and then expand our overseas deployments into Afghanistan and Iraq or was he just ignorant during the last election? 3. If it was right to intervene in Iraq, was it right for Clinton to intervene in Haiti and Bosnia? 4. It it was right to intervene in Iraq, do you support intervention in the Congo (over 2 million killed?) in China, slave laborers are used? in Britain (northern Ireland occupation? against Israel for building in territories against UN resolutions? in Cuba where we are fomenting dissent against the existing government? In Columbia in which case whose side are we on? If the justification for intervention in Iraq is human rights, are Republicans ready to turn their foreign policy arguments of the last thirty years on its head to intervene in Asia, Africa, and Latin America when human rights are violated? Is is right to generate false pretenses to persuade the American public to intervene for human rights? Is it fair politics to lie about the state of the American military in order to generate votes? Is it right to cut veteran;s benefits for pay for tax cuts? bill n emory Michael Korcok wrote: > 1. the newest on MSNBC today, May 8, from NEWSWEEK: ( > http://www.msnbc.com/news/910934.asp?0cl=c1 ) "The Committee?s > view is that Saddam Hussein?s regime slaughtered 8 million people; in > a country of 25 million that?s a pretty extreme estimate. ?Hitler was > a minor student in the school of Saddam, and not a very good student > by comparison,? Idrisi said. ?Just in my small family, my cousin was > in prison, my father, brother, and five or six other cousins > disappeared,? he said. Saleh agreed. ?No family in Iraq is without its > missing. My brother, too. Still I haven?t reached his grave, but I saw > the file.? > Challenging such over-the-top figures provokes annoyance among > the Committee members. ?How can we have 8 million? I?ll show you.? > Saleh produces an armful of fat file folders. ?Look at this one. Look > at the file number.? It?s stamped TOP SECRET, labeled Department of > General Security, Branch 45, File No. 12584. Branch 45 specialized in > the banned Shiite group Al Dawa. This is a case file concerning one > Satter Jaber Meslain, an investigation that lasted from 1981-1983. As > the result of his confession and other investigative leads that his > interrogation produced, 55 persons are implicated; all are listed here > as condemned to death on one page, and then, on a paper dated hours > later, confirmed ?hanged by a rope until dead.? On the front of the > file folio is a strip of computer stickers, the kind used to track > inventory, bearing the number 507989493; they seem to be file > locators. ?Look how big that number is. It was indescribable what they > did. There are millions of files, millions.? > He pulls out another, quite similar file, Branch 45, File No. > 1055. An investigation into one person, led to 54 persons executed. > And a third file, 28 executed. And a fourth, 26 executed. The floor > next to his desk is stacked high with these; and that?s just this > day?s work." 2. as to the claims that the Bush Administration didn't > argue that the coalition should liberate Iraq because of Saddam and > Sons' human rights record, it just ignores many and detailed texts > which made precisely that argument. like a lousy interventionist > judge pretending to have forgotten several pages of the flow. the page > that contained the flow of the British Dossier on Human Rights in > Iraq, from December 2002 for > example? http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2002/12/02/hrdossierenglish.pdf the > page that contained the liberal Brookings Institution justification > for liberation based on human rights 3 days before the > war?http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text2003/0314plck.htm every > single speech by George W. Bush, Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and > Colin Powell reminded those who bothered to hear that Saddam Hussein > was the most horrific dictator of our time. i haven't found a single > reported discussion of more than a couple of paragraphs from any of > the above about Iraq in which that justification isn't mentioned. > this was one of the last paragraphs of Colin Powell's UN presentation > of March 6, by the way: "If we fail to meet our responsibilities, the > credibility of this Council and its ability to deal with all the > critical challenges we face will suffer. As we sit here, let us not > forget the horror still going on in Iraq, with a spare moment to > remember the suffering Iraqi people whose treasure is spent on these > kinds of programs and not for their own benefit; people who are being > beaten, brutalized and robbed by Saddam and his regime." finally, it > is true that the justifications for Iraqi liberation that got the most > attention were the WMDs and terrorism justifications. but that > happened primarily because of insistence that the US get a UN > resolution for the liberation of Iraq and the only promising avenues > to get the Security Council on board were WMDs and terrorism. there > wasn't any chance at all, ever, for the US to get the Security Council > to agree to a human rights justification for regime change in Iraq. 3. > as to the claim that those on edebate who supported the war didn't do > so for human rights reasons, it just isn't so. in every mention that > i have made of Iraq over the past year of Iraqi WMDs or terrorism, i > have ALSO mentioned the atrocities of Saddam and Sons. in any case, > SURELY you did not miss the most excellent arguments of Jeff Parcher > on this issue.i certainly did not and considered them a clean > justification for Iraqi liberation. for your > reference: http://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0003.htmlhttp://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0047.htmlhttp://www.ndtceda.com/archives/200303/0014.html 4. > finally, the best-argued case against war that i read last year was > this: War Against Iraq: costs, consequences, and alternatives ( > http://www.amacad.org/publications/monographs/War_with_Iraq.pdf ) i > re-read it recently, going through the checklist of objections > (disads) that the authors presented as potential costs and their list > of alternatives. i think even the authors would have to conclude that > none of those scenarios happened to any substantial degree. if you > get a few minutes, give it a read to see just how spectacular the Bush > Administration's liberation of Iraq was. look folks, there is no shame > in admitting even egregious error.the road to recovery begins with > facing one's failings. you're welcome,Michael Korcok > "This is what you wanted to hear, so why > Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers > It is true, but underneath the talk lies > The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose > Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: > "Soonest Mended." From Steven.Woods Fri May 9 13:16:12 2003 From: Steven.Woods (Steven Woods) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:16:12 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate v. New Debate Message-ID: Hey all, Just wondering if all the effort in setting up a for profit tour of debate might be more meaningfully directed toward establishing new programs and developing more opportunities for people who do not know HOW to debate? Just seems the time, energy, and effort to promote the "haves" just shows how little we care for the "have nots." $1000 could easily start a program somewhere. Is there a possiblity of making Prodebate less entrepenurial and more philanthropic? Just wondering, Steve Western Washington University From jackattack7 Fri May 9 14:04:12 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:04:12 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] salzburg mike flails on 1AC Message-ID: contentions 1 and 2 have been offered. there are more to come that further substantiate bush family links to the nazis. korcok indicted several of the sources, offered NO counter evidence, and did not dispute claims in the evidence that Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush (both members of the Skull and Bones Society @ Yale along with the two Bush Presidents that came from the merging of the two bloodlines) sold $50 million in German bonds that were partially used by their Nazi business partner Fritz Thyssen to fund the financially desperate Nazi Party when there was a dearth of funding available. salzburg mike dreams of reinhabiting the Eagle's Nest so he can show off his true Austrian Nazi colors. he loves the Bush family so much that he flails in face of the truth. get ready. salzburg mike is just going to write some stupid poem or characterize stroube as crazy to exonerate his pathetic apology for proven bush links to the nazis that he is technically unqualified to dispute. 1) there is one major omission in your apparently summary source indictments. you said nothing about John Loftus, President of the Florida Holocaust Museum, former Prosecutor in the Justice Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit and co-author of The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. who is more qualified than a former Prosecutor in the Justice Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit? oh that's right, dipshit Korcok who has no counter evidence of his own and is basically endorsing funding Hitler's party in its infancy and getting a family fortune off Nazi business to fund an American politcal dynasty! 2) who are the great right-wing republican hack authors who defend Prescott Bush's sale of $50 million in bonds for Thyssen that helped get the Nazi Party started? are you all alone flailing? or how bout the involvement all the way until 1941 when Bush's bank was seized by FDR for trading with the nazis? 3) grant your source indicts. who cares? they are all working with the same historical facts that Union Banking Company was established by the Thyssen family to launder money out of Germany, that Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker via W.A. Harriman and Company sold $50 million in German bonds to the American people that financially jump started the Nazi Party, and that Bush's Union Banking Company was eventually seized by FDR because it was violation of the Trading with the Enemy Act. "It was a matter of public record that the Bush holdings were seized by the US government after the Nazis overran Holland. In 1951, the Bush's reclaimed Union Bank from the US Alien Property Custodian, along with their "neutral" Dutch assets." you have cited the opinions of Lederman but that does nothing to dispute the facts that he addresses. regardless of his opinions on Guiliani and 9-11, he gets articles printed in The Boston Globe to your chagrin. Kranish too in The Boston Globe. are you accusing The Globe of being a left-wing front group? where is your newspaper article hysterical, right-wing fanatic? yes, korcok, that's right, many "left-wing extremists" have taken the facts that are public knowledge and used them to smear the Bush family name. this does nothing to erase the facts. no hocus pocus will make them disappear. your analytical presses of the 1AC fucking suck. using them as the sole basis of your strategy demonstrates your fundamental debate weakness most notably on line by line argumentation which is the key to competitive success. unless you can come up with a reason for excluding the extremely qualified Loftus, we suspect opportunist anti-semitic exclusion on your part in this specific case to promote your fascist agenda that is being linked directly to the Nazis. given that you are not taking serious documented links between Prescott Bush and the Nazis, your whole pro-jewish front has zero credibility. you need to articulate a real position to clarify your stance on the Union Banking Company/Harriman Company etc and their financial ties to Fritz Thyssen including money laundering. you are callous, cold, and negligent in the face of documented evidence digging yourself into a hole. any meticulous judge like Bill Newnam knows that you are getting your ass kicked and better have some real case take-outs ready for the 2NC or it's GAME OVER!!! 4) YOU NEED COUNTER-EVIDENCE TO EXONERATE PRESCOTT BUSH WHOSE COMPANY WAS SEIZED FOR TRADING WITH THE NAZIS. YOU HAVE NONE. YOU ARE PLAYING STUPID A SOURCE GAME AND LOSING AT THAT ONE. ANY JUDGE WOULD VOTE YOU DOWN BASED ON YOUR ARGUMENT SO FAR. check out this Zanesville Ohio Signal articled dated July 31, 1941 @ http://www.infowars.com/print_prescott.htm. A similar article appeared in the New York Herald called "Hitla's angel", got it, you dig? what's your source indict on the Zanesville Signal? anti-jewish conspiracy trying to bust an old, conservative Connecticut Tory family stooped in an elite 19th century German fraternity? 5) further, it is a fact that the Bushes for 3 generations have been part of the Skull and Bones Society @ Yale. the 2 Presidents have listed the fraternity on their White House resume and are proud to have been part of such an elite organization. Richard Nixon responded to a California newspaper advertisement placed by Prescott Bush looking for an impressionable young man to run for Congress. Prescott ran Nixon's losing campaign against Nixon in 1960 and claims to be responsible for the Ike-TrickyDick ticket in 1952. Nixon was Prescott Bush's darling. The Bush legacy has been short-changed by critics who stop with Sr. The great-grandfather was a Skull and Bones devil extraordinaire who taught Tricky Dick everything he knew. 6) in fact, the first political act of the young Prescott who had just graduated from Yale was to dig up Geronimo's grave and return the "sacred" artifacts back to "The Tomb" of the Scull and Bones on the Yale campus. sounds like baghdad, mike, culture theft/destruction by an inferior white race. this one is particularly sick stepping on the genocide of the native americans and rubbing it in. yeah, prescott was a fucking nazi and the bush family fortune traces back to nazi money laundering. try this The Lakota Nation Journal article (i know the cite is from stupid Indians who deserved to die) http://www.georgewalkerbush.net/wherearetheyhidinggeronimosskull.htm the Tarpley and Chaitkin bio has a whole chapter on the Bush family Skull and Bones connection (waiting for that Tarpley/Chaitkin indict even though their research of the Bush family exceeds your own by volumes--note that the Geronimo incident surfaced in the Washington Post during the 1988 campaign) http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm quote: " Among the traditional artifacts collected and maintained within the High Street Tomb are human remains of various derivations. The following concerns one such set of Skull and Bones. Geronimo, an Apache faction leader and warrior, led a party of warriors on a raid in 1876, after Apaches were moved to the San Carlos Reservation in Arizona territory. He led other raids against U.S. and Mexican forces well into the 1880s; he was captured and escaped many times. Geronimo was finally interned at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He became a farmer and joined a Christian congregation. He died at the age of 79 years in 1909, and was buried at Fort Sill. Three-quarters of a century later, his tribesmen raised the question of getting their famous warrior reinterred back in Arizona. Ned Anderson was Tribal Chairman of the San Carlos Apache Tribe from 1978 to 1986. This is the story he tells at s8: Around the fall of 1983, the leader of an Apache group in another section of Arizona said he was interested in having the remains of Geronimo returned to his tribe's custody. Taking up this idea, Anderson said that the remains properly belonged to his group as much as to the other Apaches. After much discussion, several Apache groups met at a kind of summit meeting held at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The army authorities were not favorable to the meeting, and it only occurred through the intervention of the office of the Governor of Oklahoma. As a result of this meeting, Ned Anderson was written up in the newspapers as an articulate Apache activist. Soon afterwards, in late 1983 or early 1984, a Skull and Bones member contacted Anderson and leaked evidence that Geronimo's remains had long ago been pilfered--by Prescott Bush, George's father. The informant said that in May of 1918, Prescott Bush and five other officers at Fort Sill desecrated the grave of Geronimo. They took turns watching while they robbed the grave, taking items including a skull, some other bones, a horse bit and straps. These prizes were taken back to the Tomb, the home of the Skull and Bones Society at Yale in New Haven, Connecticut. They were put into a display case, which members and visitors could easily view upon entry to the building. The informant provided Anderson with photographs of the stolen remains, and a copy of a Skull and Bones log book in which the 1918 grave robbery had been recorded. The informant said that Skull and Bones members used the pilfered remains in performing some of their Thursday and Sunday night rituals, with Geronimo's skull sitting out on a table in front of them. Outraged, Anderson traveled to New Haven. He did some investigation on the Yale campus and held numerous discussions, to learn what the Apaches would be up against when they took action, and what type of action would be most fruitful. Through an attorney, Ned Anderson asked the FBI to move into the case. The attorney conveyed to him the Bureau's response: If he would turn over every scrap of evidence to the FBI, and completely remove himself from the case, they would get involved. He rejected this bargain, since it did not seem likely to lead toward recovery of Geronimo's remains. Due to his persistence, he was able to arrange a September 1986 Manhattan meeting with Jonathan Bush, George Bush's brother. Jonathan Bush vaguely assured Anderson that he would get what he had come after, and set a followup meeting for the next day. But Bush stalled--Anderson believes this was to gain time to hide and secure the stolen remains against any possible rescue action. The Skull and Bones attorney representing the Bush family and managing the case was Endicott Peabody Davison. His father was the F. Trubee Davison mentioned above, who had been president of New York's American Museum of Natural History, and personnel director for the Central Intelligence Agency. The general attitude of this Museum crowd has long been that ``Natives'' should be stuffed and mounted for display to the Fashionable Set. Finally, after about 11 days, another meeting occurred. A display case was produced, which did in fact match the one in the photograph the informant had given to Ned Anderson. But the skull he was shown was that of a ten-year-old child, and Anderson refused to receive it or to sign a legal document promising to shut up about the matter. Anderson took his complaint to Arizona Congressmen Morris Udahl and John McCain III, but with no results. George Bush refused Congressman McCain's request that he meet with Anderson. Anderson wrote to Udahl, enclosing a photograph of the wall case and skull at the ``Tomb,'' showing a black and white photograph of the living Geronimo, which members of the Order had boastfully posted next to their display of his skull. Anderson quoted from a Skull and Bones Society internal history, entitled Continuation of the History of Our Order for the Century Celebration, 17 June 1933, by The Little Devil of D'121. >From the war days [W.W. I] also sprang the mad expedition from the School of Fire at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, that brought to the T[omb] its most spectacular ``crook,'' the skull of Geronimo the terrible, the Indian Chief who had taken forty-nine white scalps. An expedition in late May, 1918, by members of four Clubs [i.e. four graduating-class years of the Society], Xit D.114, Barebones, Caliban and Dingbat, D.115, S'Mike D.116, and Hellbender D.117, planned with great caution since in the words of one of them: ``Six army captains robbing a grave wouldn't look good in the papers.'' The stirring climax was recorded by Hellbender in the Black Book of D.117: ``... The ring of pick on stone and thud of earth on earth alone disturbs the peace of the prairie. An axe pried open the iron door of the tomb, and Pat[riarch] Bush entered and started to dig. We dug in turn, each on relief taking a turn on the road as guards.... Finally Pat[riarch] Ellery James turned up a bridle, soon a saddle horn and rotten leathers followed, then wood and then, at the exact bottom of the small round hole, Pat[riarch] James dug deep and pried out the trophy itself.... We quickly closed the grave, shut the door and sped home to Pat[riarch] Mallon's room, where we cleaned the Bones. Pat[riarch] Mallon sat on the floor liberally applying carbolic acid. The Skull was fairly clean, having only some flesh inside and a little hair. I showered and hit the hay ... a happy man....''@s9 The other grave robber whose name is given, Ellery James, we encountered in Chapter 1--he was to be an usher at Prescott's wedding three years later. And the fellow who applied acid to the stolen skull, burning off the flesh and hair, was Neil Mallon. Years later, Prescott Bush and his partners chose Mallon as chairman of Dresser Industries; Mallon hired Prescott's son, George Bush, for George's first job; and George Bush named his son, Neil Mallon Bush, after the flesh-picker. In 1988, the Washington Post ran an article, originating from the Establishment-line Arizona Republic, entitled ``Skull for Scandal: Did Bush's Father Rob Geronimo's Grave?'' The article included a small quote from the 1933 Skull and Bones History of Our Order: ``An axe pried open the iron door of the tomb, and ... Bush entered and started to dig....'' and so forth, but neglected to include other names beside Bush. According to the Washington Post, the document which Bush attorney Endicott Davison tried to get the Apache leader to sign,stipulated that Ned Anderson agreed it would be ``inappropriate for you, me [Jonathan Bush] or anyone in association with us to make or permit any publication in connection with this transaction.'' Anderson called the document ``very insulting to Indians.'' Davison claimed later that the Order's own history book is a hoax, but during the negotiations with Anderson, Bush's attorney demanded Anderson give up his copy of the book. at s1 at s0 Bush crony Fitzhugh Green gives the view of the President's backers on this affair, and conveys the arrogant racial attitude typical of Skull and Bones: ``Prescott Bush had a colorful side. In 1988 the press revealed the complaint of an Apache leader about Bush. This was Ned Anderson of San Carlos, Oklahoma [sic], who charged that as a young army officer Bush stole the skull of Indian Chief [sic] Geronimo and had it hung on the wall of Yale's Skull and Bones Club. After exposure of `true facts' by Anderson, and consideration by some representatives in Congress, the issue faded from public sight. Whether or not this alleged skullduggery actually occurred, the mere idea casts the senior Bush in an adventurous light''@s1 at s1[emphasis added]." unquote _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mmk_savant Fri May 9 15:15:10 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:15:10 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube Message-ID: your evidence is ass. right, John Loftus. he's the best you have and he is pretty much a moron as well. not as obviously a moron as your primary sources, but still impressively pathetic. the "standard bio" that all of your moron sources give for him, right from his own web site ( http://www.john-loftus.com/default.asp ) is: "As a Justice Department prosecutor, John Loftus once held some of the highest security clearances in the world, with special access to NATO Cosmic, CIA codeword, and Top Secret Nuclear files. As a private attorney, he works without charge to help hundreds of intelligence agents obtain lawful permission to declassify and publish the hidden secrets of our times. He is the author of four history books, three of which have been made into films, two were international best sellers, and one was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize." well, then. you might think: "that Loftus guy likes to do self-promotion. seems like a jackass". and you'd be RIGHT! this is a clearer picture of what's behind the bio. from a review of The Belarus Secret by James Dingley in The Journal of Byelorussian Studies ( http://www.belarus-misc.org/books/bel-secret.htm ). "The author is a young (34) lawyer of Irish Catholic extraction from Boston. The material for the book was gathered in two and a half years spent as a federal prosecutor (so he describes himself in the preface) in the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) of the Criminal Division of the Justice Department (the 'Nazi war crimes unit' his particular function, again according to the preface, was 'Coordinator of a highly classified inquiry called the Belarus Project'. His superior at the OSI, however, describes him in rather humbler terms. In an interview with Charles R. Allen ('Give me your tired, your poor... your Nazi war criminals', The Jewish Veteran, vol. 37, no. 1, Sept.-October 1982, p. 10), Allan A. Ryan denied that Loftus ever prosecuted Nazi war criminal cases while with OSI, saying that he 'did legal research for our trial attorneys'." and the whole President, vice-chariman, chairman of the Florida Holocaust Museum thing? yeah he volunteered for it and since no one else was available, our altar boy got the job. and VOILA!!!! instant qualifications to write crap. and well, on the specifics of his research skills, his argumentative abilities, and his brains, James Dingley said a lot. the full review linked above is worth a read, it is an expert crushing, much like the one that Stroube is receiving AT THIS VERY MOMENT (coincidence? or master-plan? YOU DECIDE). here are some excerpts: "On the other hand a close examination of the book reveals so many errors and illogicalities in other areas as to call into question the validity of any of the author's conclusions. ... Loftus is obviously a monoglot without any precise knowledge of the recent history of a people on which he pronounces judgement. In particular he obviously does not really understand the historical position of Byelorussia, and the claims of Poles and Russians to dominance over the country. This must cast some doubt over his approach; indeed this doubt is intensified when it becomes clear that Loftus has employed a research methodology that smacks of the world of spy fiction... It is, however, at the level of serious statement that the book's shortcomings reveal themselves. Loftus' ignorance of Byelorussian history betrays itself in such gross errors as dating the 'merger' between the BNR and the BSSR in 1930, or calling Byelorussians in Poland (p. 15) '?migr?s'.... This sloppy approach to detail is extended to the form in which bibliographical information is provided in the notes, or indeed is not provided at all. A truly classic example of the way in which errors are passed on from one writer to another through a combination of ignorance and carelessness can be found in note 13 on p. 164.... However, it must be remembered that Loftus is claiming to have made discoveries that have escaped the attention of all other scholars of the Holocaust who have had access to the 'available public records' and is using his 'discoveries' to lay charges of war crimes against Byelorussians both living and dead. If his use of primary source material is sloppy and careless, so must his conclusions be. Indeed his central accusation is so breath-taking in its audacity as to be worth quoting in full: '. . . the holocaust in Byelorussia was unique. In no other nation under German occupation did the inhabitants so willingly and enthusiastically visit such a degree of inhumanity upon their neighbours' (p. 29). To justify such a gross slander Loftus is forced to resort to tactical deviousness. The first such device is the sin of omission.... A large question mark, therefore, hangs over Loftus' sources and the use he makes of them. His book abounds with illogicalities and unsupported statements. On p. 22 we read that Kusal 'put together a fledgling police force' just after the occupation of Minsk in 1941, whereas on p. 33 we are told that 'the Byelorussians had not even been permitted to form their own military organisation or national police force.' ... It is clear that Loftus has not yet learned how to collect that evidence, and has insufficient linguistic and historical knowledge to deal with source material. " now, i can't prove that it's the SAME John Loftus, but, eerily enough, the John Loftus of THIS story has the EXACT SAME NAME as the John Loftus you refer to. THE SAME NAME! http://www.whyaretheydead.net/Story_of_John_Loftus.html John Loftus was a member of Scientology and barely got out and has been in and out of therapy ever since. that is the VERY SAME scientology that William S. Burroughs joined for a time and pushed a few times, L Ron's little scam. JACK!!!! what you are doing (and what your sources are doing) is called 6 degrees of separation. it is how conspiracy theorists think. you (and your sources) are dancing on the coffee table with lampshades on your heads while the rest of us are laughing at your pathology. not nice? well, no. but DAMN, man, if we didn't laugh at you, we'd have to cry. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/483249ea/attachment.html From jackattack7 Fri May 9 15:33:57 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 20:33:57 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] hersch's latest: the cabal/chalabhi/defectors/shitty evidence Message-ID: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact more WMD smoking gun bullshit -- the Kamel bros. and hamza the scientist -- i think senator rockefeller is right: quote: "In August, 1995, General Hussein Kamel, who was in charge of Iraq?s weapons program, defected to Jordan, with his brother, Colonel Saddam Kamel. They brought with them crates of documents containing detailed information about Iraqi efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction?much of which was unknown to the U.N. inspection teams that had been on the job since 1991?and were interviewed at length by the U.N. inspectors. In 1996, Saddam Hussein lured the brothers back with a promise of forgiveness, and then had them killed. The Kamels? information became a major element in the Bush Administration?s campaign to convince the public of the failure of the U.N. inspections. Last October, in a speech in Cincinnati, the President cited the Kamel defections as the moment when Saddam?s regime ?was forced to admit that it had produced more than thirty thousand liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents. . . . This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for, and is capable of killing millions.? A couple of weeks earlier, Vice-President Cheney had declared that Hussein Kamel?s story ?should serve as a reminder to all that we often learned more as the result of defections than we learned from the inspection regime itself.? The full record of Hussein Kamel?s interview with the inspectors reveals, however, that he also said that Iraq?s stockpile of chemical and biological warheads, which were manufactured before the 1991 Gulf War, had been destroyed, in many cases in response to ongoing inspections. The interview, on August 22, 1995,was conducted by Rolf Ekeus, then the executive chairman of the U.N. inspection teams, and two of his senior associates?Nikita Smidovich and Maurizio Zifferaro. ?You have an important role in Iraq,? Kamel said, according to the record, which was assembled from notes taken by Smidovich. ?You should not underestimate yourself. You are very effective in Iraq.? When Smidovich noted that the U.N. teams had not found ?any traces of destruction,? Kamel responded, ?Yes, it was done before you came in.? He also said that Iraq had destroyed its arsenal of warheads. ?We gave instructions not to produce chemical weapons,? Kamel explained later in the debriefing. ?I don?t remember resumption of chemical-weapons production before the Gulf War. Maybe it was only minimal production and filling. . . . All chemical weapons were destroyed. I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons?biological, chemical, missile, nuclear?were destroyed.? Kamel also cast doubt on the testimony of Dr. Khidhir Hamza, an Iraqi nuclear scientist who defected in 1994. Hamza settled in the United States with the help of the I.N.C. and has been a highly vocal witness concerning Iraq?s alleged nuclear ambitions. Kamel told the U.N. interviewers, however, that Hamza was ?a professional liar.? He went on, ?He worked with us, but he was useless and always looking for promotions. He consulted with me but could not deliver anything. . . . He was even interrogated by a team before he left and was allowed to go.? After his defection, Hamza became a senior fellow at the Institute for Science and International Security, a Washington disarmament group, whose president, David Albright, was a former U.N. weapons inspector. In 1998, Albright told me, he and Hamza sent publishers a proposal for a book tentatively entitled ?Fizzle: Iraq and the Atomic Bomb,? which described how Iraq had failed in its quest for a nuclear device. There were no takers, Albright said, and Hamza eventually ?started exaggerating his experiences in Iraq.? The two men broke off contact. In 2000, Hamza published ?Saddam?s Bombmaker,? a vivid account claiming that by 1991, when the Gulf War began, Iraq was far closer than had been known to the production of a nuclear weapon. Jeff Stein, a Washington journalist who collaborated on the book, told me that Hamza?s account was ?absolutely on the level, allowing for the fact that any memoir puts the author at the center of events, and therefore there is some exaggeration.? James Woolsey, the former head of the C.I.A., said of Hamza, ?I think highly of him and I have no reason to disbelieve the claims that he?s made.? Hamza could not be reached for comment. On April 26th, according to the Times, he returned to Iraq as a member of a group of exiles designated by the Pentagon to help rebuild the country?s infrastructure. He is to be responsible for atomic energy." unquote Chalabhi the chump puppet and the INC manufacturing ev linking Saddam to the WTC attacks --- whoo, the big salman pak training camp, the nth dud in a long series of blanks: quote: "Almost immediately after September 11th, the I.N.C. began to publicize the stories of defectors who claimed that they had information connecting Iraq to the attacks. In an interview on October 14, 2001, conducted jointly by the Times and ?Frontline,? the public-television program, Sabah Khodada, an Iraqi Army captain, said that the September 11th operation ?was conducted by people who were trained by Saddam,? and that Iraq had a program to instruct terrorists in the art of hijacking. Another defector, who was identified only as a retired lieutenant general in the Iraqi intelligence service, said that in 2000 he witnessed Arab students being given lessons in hijacking on a Boeing 707 parked at an Iraqi training camp near the town of Salman Pak, south of Baghdad. In separate interviews with me, however, a former C.I.A. station chief and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for counter-terrorism training. In the mid-eighties, Islamic terrorists were routinely hijacking aircraft. In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by pro-Iranian extremists and crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered, killing at least sixty-five people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at war, and America favored Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the West, and got what it wanted from Britain?s MI6. The C.I.A. offered similar training in counter-terrorism throughout the Middle East. ?We were helping our allies everywhere we had a liaison,? the former station chief told me. Inspectors recalled seeing the body of an airplane?which appeared to be used for counter-terrorism training?when they visited a biological-weapons facility near Salman Pak in 1991, ten years before September 11th. It is, of course, possible for such a camp to be converted from one purpose to another. The former C.I.A. official noted, however, that terrorists would not practice on airplanes in the open. ?That?s Hollywood rinky-dink stuff,? the former agent said. ?They train in basements. You don?t need a real airplane to practice hijacking. The 9/11 terrorists went to gyms. But to take one back you have to practice on the real thing.? Salman Pak was overrun by American troops on April 6th. Apparently, neither the camp nor the former biological facility has yielded evidence to substantiate the claims made before the war. A former Bush Administration intelligence official recalled a case in which Chalabi?s group, working with the Pentagon, produced a defector from Iraq who was interviewed overseas by an agent from the D.I.A. The agent relied on an interpreter supplied by Chalabi?s people. Last summer, the D.I.A. report, which was classified, was leaked. In a detailed account, the London Times described how the defector had trained with Al Qaeda terrorists in the late nineteen-nineties at secret camps in Iraq, how the Iraqis received instructions in the use of chemical and biological weapons, and how the defector was given a new identity and relocated. A month later, however, a team of C.I.A. agents went to interview the man with their own interpreter. ?He says, ?No, that?s not what I said,?? the former intelligence official told me. ?He said, ?I worked at a fedayeen camp; it wasn?t Al Qaeda.? He never saw any chemical or biological training.? Afterward, the former official said, ?the C.I.A. sent out a piece of paper saying that this information was incorrect. They put it in writing.? But the C.I.A. rebuttal, like the original report, was classified. ?I remember wondering whether this one would leak and correct the earlier, invalid leak. Of course, it didn?t.? The former intelligence official went on, ?One of the reasons I left was my sense that they were using the intelligence from the C.I.A. and other agencies only when it fit their agenda. They didn?t like the intelligence they were getting, and so they brought in people to write the stuff. They were so crazed and so far out and so difficult to reason with?to the point of being bizarre. Dogmatic, as if they were on a mission from God.? He added, ?If it doesn?t fit their theory, they don?t want to accept it.? unquote _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Fri May 9 16:02:46 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:02:46 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] ans salzburg mike Message-ID: 1) korcok is so stupid he can't even get an indict of Loftus's 1994 book on Prescott Bush's connection to the nazis. instead he chooses to indict the wrong book which is the 1982 book on the Belarussian connection to the Nazis. THE TITLE OF THE BOOK WITH THE EVIDENCE IN QUESTION TO WHICH YOU HAVE NO ANSWER IS The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. can you read salzburg mike or are you as illiterate as the president who has a nazi grandfather and a nazi great grandfather? the book in question was coauthored with a guy named Aarons so you'll need another indict, dumbfuck nazi jew hater. i guess a judge might give some credibility to a cross-ap of an indictment of a book written in 1982 to a book written in 1994 even though she would probably asked the poor little 1N if that was his only choice because he had no other evidence to present. just go to amazon. type in the appropriate title and find an unfavorable review of the book. whoo. you're such a smart guy. or go to google and type in the title and scroll through pages neglecting favorable reviews until you find the one contrary article. 2) DIPSHIT. THE ARG IS THAT SOURCE INDICTS ARE ONLY RELEVANT TO THE SPIN OF THE FACTS AND CAN'T ERASE THE FACTS. MOTHER FUCKER SALZBURG DICKHEAD ASSHOLE RIGHT-WING TRICKY DICKY SPINFUCKMASTER. YOU SUCK SO BAD YOU CAN'T DEBATE LINE BY LINE ANYMORE. ANSWER 1 AND DROP 5 OTHERS. WORKED FOR THE NAZIS. WHY NOT SALZBURG MIKE? KEEP UP THE SOURCE INDICTS DUMBASS AND DON'T ANSWER THE 'WHO CARES?" ARG BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU LOOK SO STUPID IT IS UNBELIEVABLE. UNTIL YOU COUNTER THE FACTS WITH EVIDENCE EVERYONE WILL CONTINUE TO ASSUME THAT THEY ARE FACTS AND SALZBURG MIKE DOESN'T LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO CHOSE NOT TO FORGET THE DIRTY AMERICANS IN A SECRET ELITE GERMAN FRATERNITY WHO WERE LINKED TO THE NAZIS. YOUR STRATEGY FUCKING SUCKS AND NO GOOD COACH WOULD RECOMMEND AN ANALYTICAL SOURCE PRESS STRAT UNLESS THE TEAM CAME TO THE DEBATE TOTALLY UNPREPARED WITH NO EVIDENCE OF THEIR OWN TO SUBMIT BEFORE THE JUDGE. WHAT HAPPENED? DID YOUR EV GET HELD UP AT THE SALZBURG AIRPORT? HUH? FUCKFACE DEBATE LOSA THE FACTS AND YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO DISPUTE: 1) $50 MILLION IN GERMAN BONDS SOLD TO AMERICANS TO JUMP START THE NAZI PARTY BY PRESCOTT BUSH 2) BUSH'S UNION BANKING COMPANY WAS STARTED BY THYSSEN TO LAUNDER MONEY OUT OF GERMANY. 3) BUSH'S UNION BANKING COMPANY WAS SEIZED BY FDR FOR TRADING W THE NAZIS IN 1941 AND NUMEROUS NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM THE TIME CONFIRM. YOUR NAZI APOLOGIST RESEARCH HAS TO BE BETTER THAN ONE QUICK GOOGLE SEARCH TO MAKE AN ANALYTICAL PRESS. SALZBURG MIKE IS THE EPITOME OF BAD RIGHT WING DEBATE THAT FOCUSES SOLELY ON SOURCE INDICTS AND IS INTELLECTUALLY INCAPABLE OF ENGAGING THE FLOW OF ARGS. love stromboli/kolakowski films >From: "Michael Korcok" >To: >Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube >Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:15:10 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [64.160.200.210] >X-Originating-Email: [mmk_savant at hotmail.com] >Received: from mc7-f5.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.12]) by >mc7-s13.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 9 May >2003 13:20:57 -0700 >Received: from www.cross-x.com ([64.27.93.90]) by mc7-f5.law1.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 9 May 2003 13:19:38 -0700 >Received: from fiat.cross-x.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h49KGUw21421;Fri, 9 May 2003 >16:16:30 -0400 >Received: from hotmail.com (oe44.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.16.16])by >www.cross-x.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h49KFSw21254for >; Fri, 9 May 2003 16:15:28 -0400 >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; >Fri, 9 May 2003 13:15:52 -0700 >Received: from 64.160.200.210 by oe44.law11.hotmail.com with DAV;Fri, 09 >May 2003 20:15:51 +0000 >X-Message-Info: KuQS8cSYImBnJ/TL0+NtDJ68GOHIGAoi >X-Security: MIME headers sanitized on www.cross-x.comSee >http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/sanitizer-intro.htmlfor details. >$Revision: 1.134 $Date: 2002-04-21 16:30:40-07 X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 >Message-ID: >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2003 20:15:52.0265 (UTC) >FILETIME=[C9FB7B90:01C31667] >Sender: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >Errors-To: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com >X-BeenThere: edebate at ndtceda.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 >Precedence: bulk >List-Help: >List-Post: >List-Subscribe: >, >List-Id: NDT/CEDA debate discussion list. >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >Return-Path: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com > >your evidence is ass. > >right, John Loftus. he's the best you have and he is pretty much a moron >as well. not as obviously a moron as your primary sources, but still >impressively pathetic. > >the "standard bio" that all of your moron sources give for him, right from >his own web site >( http://www.john-loftus.com/default.asp ) is: > >"As a Justice Department prosecutor, John Loftus once held some of the >highest security clearances in the world, with special access to NATO >Cosmic, CIA codeword, and Top Secret Nuclear files. As a private attorney, >he works without charge to help hundreds of intelligence agents obtain >lawful permission to declassify and publish the hidden secrets of our >times. He is the author of four history books, three of which have been >made into films, two were international best sellers, and one was nominated >for the Pulitzer Prize." > >well, then. you might think: "that Loftus guy likes to do self-promotion. >seems like a jackass". and you'd be RIGHT! > >this is a clearer picture of what's behind the bio. from a review of The >Belarus Secret by James Dingley in The Journal of Byelorussian Studies ( >http://www.belarus-misc.org/books/bel-secret.htm ). > >"The author is a young (34) lawyer of Irish Catholic extraction from >Boston. The material for the book was gathered in two and a half years >spent as a federal prosecutor (so he describes himself in the preface) in >the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) of the Criminal Division of the >Justice Department (the 'Nazi war crimes unit' his particular function, >again according to the preface, was 'Coordinator of a highly classified >inquiry called the Belarus Project'. His superior at the OSI, however, >describes him in rather humbler terms. In an interview with Charles R. >Allen ('Give me your tired, your poor... your Nazi war criminals', The >Jewish Veteran, vol. 37, no. 1, Sept.-October 1982, p. 10), Allan A. Ryan >denied that Loftus ever prosecuted Nazi war criminal cases while with OSI, >saying that he 'did legal research for our trial attorneys'." > >and the whole President, vice-chariman, chairman of the Florida Holocaust >Museum thing? yeah he volunteered for it and since no one else was >available, our altar boy got the job. and VOILA!!!! instant >qualifications to write crap. > >and well, on the specifics of his research skills, his argumentative >abilities, and his brains, James Dingley said a lot. the full review >linked above is worth a read, it is an expert crushing, much like the one >that Stroube is receiving AT THIS VERY MOMENT (coincidence? or >master-plan? YOU DECIDE). here are some excerpts: > > "On the other hand a close examination of the book reveals so many >errors and illogicalities in other areas as to call into question the >validity of any of the author's conclusions. ... > Loftus is obviously a monoglot without any precise knowledge of the >recent history of a people on which he pronounces judgement. In particular >he obviously does not really understand the historical position of >Byelorussia, and the claims of Poles and Russians to dominance over the >country. This must cast some doubt over his approach; indeed this doubt is >intensified when it becomes clear that Loftus has employed a research >methodology that smacks of the world of spy fiction... > It is, however, at the level of serious statement that the book's >shortcomings reveal themselves. Loftus' ignorance of Byelorussian history >betrays itself in such gross errors as dating the 'merger' between the BNR >and the BSSR in 1930, or calling Byelorussians in Poland (p. 15) >'?migr?s'.... > This sloppy approach to detail is extended to the form in which >bibliographical information is provided in the notes, or indeed is not >provided at all. A truly classic example of the way in which errors are >passed on from one writer to another through a combination of ignorance and >carelessness can be found in note 13 on p. 164.... > However, it must be remembered that Loftus is claiming to have made >discoveries that have escaped the attention of all other scholars of the >Holocaust who have had access to the 'available public records' and is >using his 'discoveries' to lay charges of war crimes against Byelorussians >both living and dead. If his use of primary source material is sloppy and >careless, so must his conclusions be. Indeed his central accusation is so >breath-taking in its audacity as to be worth quoting in full: '. . . the >holocaust in Byelorussia was unique. In no other nation under German >occupation did the inhabitants so willingly and enthusiastically visit such >a degree of inhumanity upon their neighbours' (p. 29). To justify such a >gross slander Loftus is forced to resort to tactical deviousness. The first >such device is the sin of omission.... > A large question mark, therefore, hangs over Loftus' sources and the >use he makes of them. His book abounds with illogicalities and unsupported >statements. On p. 22 we read that Kusal 'put together a fledgling police >force' just after the occupation of Minsk in 1941, whereas on p. 33 we are >told that 'the Byelorussians had not even been permitted to form their own >military organisation or national police force.' ... > It is clear that Loftus has not yet learned how to collect that >evidence, and has insufficient linguistic and historical knowledge to deal >with source material. " > >now, i can't prove that it's the SAME John Loftus, but, eerily enough, the >John Loftus of THIS story has the EXACT SAME NAME as the John Loftus you >refer to. THE SAME NAME! >http://www.whyaretheydead.net/Story_of_John_Loftus.html >John Loftus was a member of Scientology and barely got out and has been in >and out of therapy ever since. that is the VERY SAME scientology that >William S. Burroughs joined for a time and pushed a few times, L Ron's >little scam. > >JACK!!!! what you are doing (and what your sources are doing) is called 6 >degrees of separation. it is how conspiracy theorists think. you (and >your sources) are dancing on the coffee table with lampshades on your heads >while the rest of us are laughing at your pathology. not nice? well, no. > but DAMN, man, if we didn't laugh at you, we'd have to cry. > >thanks for reading, >Michael Korcok > >"This is what you wanted to hear, so why >Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers >It is true, but underneath the talk lies >The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose >Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." > >John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mmk_savant Fri May 9 16:12:54 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:12:54 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Stroube Message-ID: dammit jack!!!! i said NOT the green pills, NOT the green pills! crap! someone call the clinic, he swallowed the green pills. Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/680a09ed/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Fri May 9 16:17:10 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:17:10 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] salzburg mike's lineage: G. Gordon Liddy+Dick Nixon Message-ID: warning to salzburg mike of eagle's nest: nazi propaganda films in the nixon white house are documented everywhere. remember tricky dick responded to a 1941 california newspaper ad placed by prescott bush looking for a young impressionable man to run for congress. prescott ran the 1960 campaign against kennedy. WHERE DO YOU THINK TRICKY DICK'S OVERT NAZISM CAME FROM? huh, DIPSHIT SALZBURG MIKE WITH ROVE-ESQUE BLANK NOTE CARDS? TKO -- GAME OVER -- NAZI FUCKFACE... http://edwardjayepstein.com/agency/chap15.htm quote: "In June, 1971, G. Gordon Liddy, a man possessed with a purpose, ascended to the inner circle of power at the White House. His attempt to take over the thousand-man Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms enforcement unit of the Treasury Department on behalf of the White House group had been successfully resisted by the Treasury Department earlier that year, and his immediate superior, Eugene Rossides, had moved to ease him out of that department entirely. But Liddy foresaw that the heroin issue could be the very instrument that the White House group needed to consolidate power within the bureaucracy, and thereby extend its police power. To demonstrate how a few determined men could manipulate the emotions of an entire nation by invoking a few highly visual symbols of fear, Liddy invited his new cohorts in the White House to a series of propaganda films being shown in the National Archives that June. The "Inner circle" that Liddy persuaded to view these films included John Ehrlichman, whose Domestic Council 'had assumed by now undisputed control over all domestic issues; Egil Krogh; Donald Santarelli, who was then slated to head the billion-dollar Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), which disbursed money to local police departments; Robert Mardian, who headed the internal-security division of the Department of Justice; and a number of Krogh's young assistants on the Domestic Council. The cycle of films was climaxed on June 13 by the showing of Triumph of the Will, a Nazi propaganda film made under the auspices of Hitler and Goering which graphically depicted the way a "national will" could be inculcated into the masses through the agency of controlled fear and frenzied outrage." unquote stromboli/kolakowski films _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Fri May 9 16:24:29 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:24:29 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] nixon--dochef--pasztor-korcok aka "salzburg mike" Message-ID: waiting for the source indict on The Washington Post, another commie paper///mike is siding w the RNC Ethnic Councils because the jews were responsible for truman's 48 victory... http://thewebfairy.com/nwo/nixon.html ""In preparation for the 1952 Eisenhower-Nixon campaign, the Republicans formed an Ethnic Division, which, to put it bluntly, recruited the 'displaced Fascists' who arrived in the United States after World War II. Like similar migrant organizations in several Western countries, the Ethnic Division attracted a significant number of Central and Eastern European Nazis, who had been recruited by the SS as political and police leaders during the Holocaust. These Fascist emigres supported the Eisenhower-Nixon 'liberation' policy as the quickest means of getting back into power in their former homelands and made a significant contribution 'in its first operation (1951/1952).'" The authors point out that "over the years the Democrats had acquired one or two Nazis of their own, such as Tscherim Soobzokov, a former member of the Caucasian SS who worked as a party boss in New Jersey. But in 90 percent of the cases, the members of Hitler's political organization went to the Republicans. In fact, from the very beginning, the word had been put around among Eastern European Nazis that Dulles and Nixon were the men to see, especially if you were a rich Fascist . . ." (3) This relationship between Richard Nixon and the Nazis developed because both he and Allen Dulles "blamed Governor Dewey's razor-thin loss to Truman in the 1948 presidential election on the Jewish vote. When [Nixon] became Eisenhower's vice president in 1952, Nixon was determined to build his own ethnic base. "Vice President Nixon's secret political war of Nazis against Jews in American politics was never investigated at the time. The foreign language-speaking Croatian and other Fascist emigre groups had a ready-made network for contacting and mobilizing the Eastern European ethnic bloc. There is a very high correlation between CIA domestic subsidies to Fascist 'freedom fighters' during the 1950s and the leadership of the Republican party's ethnic campaign groups. The motive for under-the-table financing was clear: Nixon used Nazis to offset the Jewish vote for the Democrats. "In 1952 Nixon had formed an Ethnic Division within the Republican National Committee. 'Displaced Fascists, hoping to be returned to power by an Eisenhower-Nixon "liberation" policy signed on' with the committee. In 1953, when Republicans were in office, the immigration laws were changed to admit Nazis, even members of the SS. They flooded into the country. Nixon himself oversaw the new immigration program. As vice president, he even received Eastern European Fascists in the White House. After a long, long journey, the Croatian Nazis had found a new home in the United States, where they reestablished their networks. "In 1968 Nixon promised that if he won the presidential election, he would create a permanent ethnic council within the Republican party. Previously the Ethnic Division was allowed to surface only during presidential campaigns. Nixon's promise was carried out after the 1972 election, during [George] Bush's tenure as chairman of the Republican National Committee. The Croatian Ustashis became an integral part of the campaign structure of Republican politics, along with several other Fascist organizations." (4) The authors describe Nixon's pro-Nazi activities in no uncertain terms: "Nixon himself personally recruited ex-Nazis for his 1968 presidential campaign. Moreover, Vice President Nixon became the point man for the Eisenhower administration on covert operations and personally supervised Allen Dulles's projects while Ike was ill in 1956 and 1957." (5) One of the Nazis recruited by candidate Nixon was Laszlo Pasztor, described by Aarons and Loftus as "the founding chair of Nixon's Republican Heritage Groups council" who, "during World War II . . . was a diplomat in Berlin representing the Arrow Cross government of Nazi Hungary, which supervised the extermination of the Jewish population. "[A]fter Nixon won [the 1968 Presidential Election], he approved Pasztor's appointment as chief organizer of the ethnic council. Not surprisingly, Pasztor's 'choices for filling emigre slots as the council was being formed included various Nazi collaborationist organizations.' The former Fascists were coming out of the closet in droves. "The policy of the Nixon White House was an 'open door' for emigre Fascists, and through the door came such guests as Ivan Docheff, head of the Bulgarian National Front and chairman of the American Friends of the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations (ABN). . . . an organization dominated by war criminals and fugitive Fascists. Yet Nixon welcomed them with open arms and even had Docheff to breakfast for a prayer meeting to celebrate Captive Nations Week." (6) "During Nixon's 'Four More Years' campaign in 1971-1972, Laszlo Pasztor again played a key role in marshaling the ethnic vote. No longer a marginal player on the fringes, now he held a key position as the Republican National Committee's nationalities director. . . . "The Republican leadership cannot claim ignorance as a defense. [Syndicated Columnist Jack] Anderson's famous expose of Nixon's Nazis appeared in 'The Washington Post' at the same time as the November 1971 convention. Among those mentioned was Laszlo Pasztor, 'the industrious head of the GOP ethnic groups, [who] was never asked about his wartime activities in Hungary by the four GOP officials who interviewed him for his job.' It was too embarrassing for Nixon to admit that Pasztor had been a ranking member of a Fascist government at war with the United States. ". . . . It is one thing to promote obscure Eastern European Fascist movements in the Republican party. It is quite another to let the German Nazis have a major influence. After 1953, the Republican administration changed the rules, and even members of the Waffen SS could immigrate to the United States as long as they claimed only to have fought the Communists on the Eastern Front." (7) The Republican/Nixon attraction to Nazism was also observed by Robert J. Groden and Harrison Edward Livingstone, authors of the book, "High Treason," dealing with the Kennedy Assassination. Groden and Livingstone write: "Nixon surrounded himself with what was known as the Berlin Wall, a long succession of advisors with Germanic names: We recall at the top of his 'German General Staff' as it was also known, Haldeman, Erlichman, Krogh, Kliendienst, Kissinger (the Rockefellers' emissary) and many others. "The selection of German names was no accident. Many of the brighter staff people close to Nixon came to him from the University of Southern California, and the University of California at Los Angeles, where there were fraternities that kept alive the vision of a new Reich. America has for a long time harbored this dark side of its character, one of violence and the Valhalla of Wagner and Hitler. "But Gordon Liddy was the one in whose mind 'Triumph of the Will' was the most alive. Some of these men would watch the great Nazi propaganda films in the basement of the White House until all hours of the night, and drink, in fact, get drunk with their power, with blind ambition, as one of them wrote." (8) "According to several of our sources in the intelligence community who were in a position to know," continue Loftus and Aarons, "the secret rosters of the Republican party's Nationalities Council read like a Who's Who of Fascist fugitives. The Republican's Nazi connection is the darkest secret of the Republican leadership. The rosters will never be disclosed to the public. As will be seen in Chapter 16 dealing with George Bush, the Fascist connection is too widespread for damage control. "According to a 1988 study by Russ Bellant of Political Research Associates, virtually all of the Fascist organizations of World War II opened up a Republican party front group during the Nixon administration. The caliber of the Republican ethnic leaders can be gauged by one New Jersey man, Emanuel Jasiuk, a notorious mass murderer from what is today called the independent nation of Belarus, formerly part of the Soviet Union. But not all American ethnic communities are represented in the GOP's ethnic section; there are no black or Jewish heritage groups. . . . "The truth is that the Nazi immigrants were 'tar babies' that no one knew how to get rid of. Dulles had brought in a handful of the top emigre politicians in the late 1940s. They in turn sponsored their friends in the 1950s. By the 1960s ex-Nazis who had originally fled to Argentina were moving to the United States. . . ." (9) It is clear that, even before the break-in at the Democratic Party Headquarters on June 17, 1972, the Republicans were on the brink of having their pro-Nazi activities over the past four decades become a matter of mass-media attention. After the Watergate Break-in, as the Congressional Hearings began to reveal the slush-funds, money- laundering, illegal corporate campaign contributions, the political sabotage of the 1972 Presidential election process, the involvement of ITT and the Nixon Administration into the assassination of Salvador Allende, the democratically elected president of Chile, and many other aspects of Nixonism, the floodgates of truth were about to open. Only one thing averted this wholesale learning of the truth by the American people: Nixon's resignation and subsequent pardoning by his hand- picked successor, Gerald Ford." _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jackattack7 Fri May 9 16:37:20 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:37:20 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] 202 225 3976 Message-ID: call waxman. he's not going far enough. the only to insure that the broader than alleged halliburton contract is not putting money into dick cheney's hands is to call for congressional investigation into halliburton's known offshore caymans accounts. it's a simple call. a quick message. i just left one. everybody knows about the 2002 tax-evasion scandal that made cheney disappear. push waxman to go all the way for the jugular. cheney is publishing his tax returns. who gives a fuck? everybody knows that he can still get profits via the secret offshore caymans accounts. call now. apply the pressure. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jbhdb8 Fri May 9 14:41:36 2003 From: jbhdb8 (jbhdb8 at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate v. New Debate Message-ID: <6083947.1052520101295.JavaMail.nobody@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hello, I am certainly not speaking for Tim but my response would be this: While resources make things seem zero-sum it seems sad that we downgrade every bit of creativity that anyone has that is not immediately philanthropic. Many many people who work, for instance as "Assistant Debate Coaches" make a horrible living working impossible hours and sacrificing weekends and holidays to do what they love. Several of those people competed at the Pro-Debate tour and some of them made some money for displaying debate skills. I understand the warrants for supporting and encouraging new programs but we also have to remember that there are plenty people in already existing programs that could also use a few extra bucks. Hope this post is not seen as hostile....I just think there is nothing wrong with some assistant coaches getting some extra money through "pro-debate." Josh UM -------Original Message------- From: Steven Woods Sent: 05/09/03 02:16 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] Pro Debate v. New Debate > > Hey all, Just wondering if all the effort in setting up a for profit tour of debate might be more meaningfully directed toward establishing new programs and developing more opportunities for people who do not know HOW to debate? Just seems the time, energy, and effort to promote the "haves" just shows how little we care for the "have nots." $1000 could easily start a program somewhere. Is there a possiblity of making Prodebate less entrepenurial and more philanthropic? Just wondering, Steve Western Washington University _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate > From BelHomme Fri May 9 21:05:29 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:05:29 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] VERMONT PLEASE Message-ID: <2b3ed01c31698$a1a17920$0a02010a@mail2world.com> if there is someone from vermont who could email me i would really appreciate it... i just had a question about a cite. andy _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/439654f7/attachment.html From BelHomme Fri May 9 21:07:52 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:07:52 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] THE RESOLUTION SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME!!!! Message-ID: <5a0601c31698$f6741a70$0a0b010a@mail2world.com> in the spirit of the intense anticipation i am sure we are all feeling over the upcoming resolution, i would like to hear some thoughts on what everyone thinks it will be. will it be a specific nation or area in europe? will it be the eu as an actor? will it be human rights specific? will it be one policy area like arms control? with a plethora of possible outcomes, what would you like to debate or what do you think it will eventually be? _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030509/1b0f8308/attachment.htm From aogletree Sat May 10 11:18:15 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:18:15 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Lamont in the White House Message-ID: Lamont in the White House by Tim Wise Sometimes an argument gets made with such regularity that no matter how silly, it nonetheless requires an answer. Indeed the more often it gets made, the more often it calls for rebuttal, since its repetition indicates someone just is not getting it. Such is the case with the oft-repeated claim, usually by whites, that affirmative action stigmatizes blacks and other persons of color who benefit from its presumed generosity. As such, they note ? and owing to their deep concern for the psychological well-being of their dark-skinned brothers and sisters ? the elimination of such programs would be in the best interest of those persons they were meant to help. By casting their opposition to affirmative action in such seemingly altruistic terms, critics seek to avoid the impression that they are motivated by racial resentment at the opening up of opportunities to long-marginalized groups. See, they seem to be saying, we don't mind black folks. Heck we love black folks, and just want what's best for them. And what's best for them, presumably, is no more 'upreferential treatment' in college admissions, jobs, or contracting. Putting aside the simple reality that all of this so-called preferential treatment has hardly put a dent in the edifice of white domination ? white men still get 93% of all government contract dollars, hold over 90% of top jobs and 85% of tenured professorships ? the notion that affirmative action stigmatizes beneficiaries and therefore should be scrapped for the sake of black and brown mental health is disingenuous and even racist on several levels. First, since affirmative action has opened up opportunities that would otherwise have remained off-limits to people of color ? and few deny this, despite the above data which indicates that white men are still large and in charge ? such arguments seem to imply that people of color would have been better off not to have gotten the jobs, college slots or contracts they received. We are asked to believe that they would have been better off with, say, one percent, instead of three percent of federal contract dollars; or perhaps half-a-percent, instead of four percent of tenured faculty positions. In other words, we are to believe that less opportunity to demonstrate their abilities would have been better for black and brown self-esteem, while more opportunity thanks to affirmative action was harmful. That few people of color would trade the added opportunities they have received for the sake of their self-image attests to how utterly asinine such an argument really is. Secondly, this feigned white concern ? occasionally echoed by black conservatives ? seems especially hypocritical when one considers that the same folks making this argument said nothing when The Bell Curve was published and greeted merrily by the conservative right. After all, here was a book that said blacks were genetically less intelligent than whites, predisposed to crime, out-of-wedlock childbirth, and all forms of social pathology. If the right believes that affirmative action creates self-doubt, or implies that people of color are less capable and need special help to succeed, then how much more harmful must a book like The Bell Curve be, which doesn't imply that such persons are less capable but rather screams it quite openly? Yet, not only did many not condemn this volume upon its publication (and no prominent conservative said a critical word, while several like William Bennett praised it openly), but indeed white consumers made it a best-seller within weeks and its primary author, Charles Murray, became a media star. Such is white concern for black people's self-esteem. Thirdly, the fact that black people overwhelmingly support affirmative action leaves proponents of the stigma argument with only one of two possible beliefs from which to choose: either that blacks are too stupid to intuit their own interests and too dim-witted to see how badly they are being damaged by affirmative action, or alternately that blacks are so gullible (and thus also stupid) as to be deceived into supporting affirmative action by scheming civil rights activists. Either way, this argument requires a belief in the ignorance of black people, and their utter inability to think rationally. Such a position is of course flatly racist not to mention utterly vapid. Additionally, whatever stigma could theoretically attach to benefiting from affirmative action surely dissipates once one has to prove themselves on the job or in school. Indeed, persons of color know well that they will likely have to work twice as hard to get half as far or be considered half as good as whites; and they have known that since long before affirmative action came around. But at least with affirmative action they get the chance to work twice as hard and demonstrate their capabilities. And, apparently, once given that chance, persons of color rise to the occasion. A comprehensive analysis of over 200 studies on the work performance of affirmative action beneficiaries, published a few years ago in the Journal of Economic Literature, found that said beneficiaries performed just as well and often better than their white male counterparts. So much for stigma. If these workers were given to doubting their own abilities due to having received a bump from affirmative action, surely this self-doubt would have translated to weakened job performance. Furthermore, to the extent such beneficiaries perform equal to or better than white men on the job, any lingering biases on the part of whites, such as beliefs that blacks are less capable and qualified, can hardly be blamed on affirmative action, but are rather the fault of white ignorance and racism itself. As for college performance the same is true. Yes, students of color fail to graduate from colleges at the same rate as their white counterparts, but this hardly indicates that they were less qualified and thus came to doubt their abilities once admitted to schools that were 'above their level' thanks to affirmative action. After all, at several top colleges, including all of the Ivy League schools, black and white graduation rates hardly differ. Furthermore, even when the rates of matriculation differ widely there is no reason to suspect stigma or that these students of color were over their head academically. For example, even black students with SAT scores of 1400 or better (out of 1600) ? academically 'qualified' to attend any school ? fail to graduate from their chosen colleges at rates that are up to nine times higher than their white counterparts. Since they were clearly capable students, other factors must be to blame, among them, hostile racial climates or feelings of isolation on mostly white campuses (both of which have been documented by years of studies), and financial concerns that are more common for people of color. Indeed, as Dalton Conley documents in his groundbreaking book, Being Black, Living in the Red, once family economic status, including wealth and asset background, is controlled for (and thus, only truly similar black and white students compared), there is no racial difference between blacks and whites in terms of college graduation rates. So whatever graduation gaps do exist can be explained by economics, not stigma associated with affirmative action. And finally, one has to wonder why no similar concern arises over white self-esteem? After all, the history of white America has been a history of affirmative action; one in which we received non-stop preferential treatment and continue to do so. Yet do those who shed crocodile tears over the stigmatizing effects of affirmative action for people of color likewise argue that whites who benefit from preferences, or have done so in the past, have been stigmatized? Is George W. Bush stigmatized because his daddy got him into Yale? Are the white baby-boomers who are currently inheriting nearly $10 trillion of property and wealth from their parents ? wealth that was accumulated under conditions of formal apartheid with its attendant preference for whites ? stigmatized by receipt of said wealth? If so, when are they going to relinquish the wealth in the name of their mental health, and if not, why not, if 'upreference'u is inherently stigmatizing? Will these conservatives now seek to raise the inheritance tax, perhaps to 100 percent, so as to save trust fund kids years of expensive therapy for their damaged self-esteems? Bottom line: if black and brown folks are being stigmatized by affirmative action, whites must be the most self-hating bunch around. Years of racial privilege must surely have brought us to the point of near paralysis, such that it quite literally boggles the mind to contemplate how we manage to persist in our daily routines at all. But luckily there is a solution ? a way for whites to safeguard our self-images, made evident by a recent study, which found that job applicants with white-sounding names are fifty percent more likely to be called in for an interview than those with black-sounding names, even when the applicants are of identical qualifications. Given the unfair preference for those who appear to be white, and the stigma that must therefore assault every Biff, Skyler or Chloe, forced to wonder if they got their jobs due to their lily-white names, perhaps the critics of racial preferences should start a campaign for whites to change our names to Tamika, Shamika, Andre and Tyrone, just to even things out a bit and avoid the damage that would otherwise come from an unfair head start. Lamont W. Bush. Yeah, that ought to do it. [Cross-posting or publishing messages that appear on BRC-DISCUSS to a non-BRC medium is prohibited (except for articles, announcements, and press releases), without EXPLICIT permission from the message author] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRC-DISCUSS: Black Radical Congress - General Discussion/Debate -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsubscribe: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscribe: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Digest: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Archive: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | BRC | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From hansonjb Sat May 10 12:43:03 2003 From: hansonjb (Jim Hanson) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:43:03 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] coach at whitman, position re-opened Message-ID: <000d01c3171b$9dcdec60$1304070a@whitman.edu> Whitman College has a proud tradition of excellence in forensics. The CEDA-NDT portion of our program is strong. We have a strong group of returning students and an excellent recruiting class coming in. Want to work with this highly motivated and talented group of students? Then, consider working as an assistant at our school. We are looking for a dedicated, hard working person who has significant experience in policy debate especially on the national circuit. The position involves the following: 1. Coaching CEDA-NDT teams including managing and engaging in extensive research and doing practice debates and drills with students. 2. Assisting with team administration including expense reports, communication with the director, picking up vans, etc. The position will pay $19,800 plus full health insurance plus an opportunity to take a course each semester at Whitman, a top tier undergraduate national liberal arts school. You also receive a computer laptop for your personal and team use for the time you work with the team. We have excellent facilities with 2/3 of a building floor devoted to forensics including four office rooms (plus two storage rooms), 12 desktop computers each with a scanner, 2 high speed laser printers, a folder on our server for all of our debate files, and a portable digital camera for taping debates. If you wish, you can also work for West Coast Publishing. This position pays an additional $7200 and includes managing and editing policy handbooks, presenting lectures at a debate seminar for high school students, and researching and preparing definitions and evidence for a book that teaches novices how to debate. So, with the two positions, you would earn $27,000-a solid amount given the low cost of living in Walla Walla (example: a one bedroom apartment for $400 per month is very easy to find), a town nestled in a valley near the Blue Mountains in southeast Washington. E-mail me by Monday, May 26, if you are interested in the position and I will send you an application. If you have questions, you can also ask our current assistant, Brian Simmonds at simmonbm at whitman.edu Jim Hanson Director of Forensics Whitman College hansonjb at whitman.edu From mike_girouard Sat May 10 14:00:01 2003 From: mike_girouard (Mike Girouard) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Topic Wording Papers Message-ID: <20030510190001.46996.qmail@web41011.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know when the deadline is for topic wording paper submissions and where to send them. I can't find it anywhere on the L or on the CEDA website. Thanks, Mike Girouard UNT Debate __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From spmancuso Sat May 10 14:10:27 2003 From: spmancuso (Steve Mancuso) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:10:27 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Interested in writing a topic paper, or helping? Message-ID: <3EBD4EA3.90309@aol.com> You should contact me, or someone else on the committee to let us know what you are interested in writing about. We may already have someone working in that area and we could incorporate your efforts. The deadline we are using is June 1. Steve Mancuso From SSbauschard2 Sat May 10 14:12:06 2003 From: SSbauschard2 (SSbauschard2 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:12:06 EDT Subject: [eDebate] caselist 2002-3 info Message-ID: <25.389f8144.2beea906@aol.com> Hi all, All of the caselist info from 2002-3 will be archived at Planet Debate "forever." If you have any other caselist information from last year that you would be willing to contribute, please post it at planetdeabte.com or email it to me here. That way, people will always be able to take advantage of it. Thanks, Stefan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030510/bc064752/attachment.html From rob.eback Sat May 10 18:17:47 2003 From: rob.eback (Rob Eback) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] 1999-2000 caselist anywhere online? Message-ID: <20030510231747.EB2963DB0@xmxpita.excite.com> I know I'm a little late asking for this, but is there a case list still available online from this topic. I'm specificly interested in the cites from the final round of the NDT. If you could help me out with this I'd greatly appreciate it. More specificly, I'm looking for fuller cites for the Aff's evidence they read against the Borderks/Topographical Amnesia Critique: Neufield, Campbell, Guzzini, and Murray. Thanks in advance for any help. Rob GSU _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From michelinmassey Sat May 10 18:45:22 2003 From: michelinmassey (Michelin C. Massey) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] rob holmes only! Message-ID: <20030510234522.21663.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> hi, if you are rob holmes (from miami, fl) or know how to get in touch with him, please email me at this address. apologies to all others. michelin massey. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dig Sat May 10 22:01:56 2003 From: dig (Andy Ellis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:01:56 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] job oppurtunity -translator Message-ID: <200305110301.h4B31uw02682@www.cross-x.com> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp? category=1500&slug=Klingon%20Interpreter From dig Sat May 10 22:07:17 2003 From: dig (Andy Ellis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:07:17 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] job oppurtunity -translator Message-ID: <200305110307.h4B37HH03677@www.cross-x.com> try this since the link didnt work Saturday, May 10, 2003 ? Last updated 2:43 p.m. PT Oregon County Seeks Klingon Interpreter THE ASSOCIATED PRESS PORTLAND, Ore. -- Position Available: Interpreter, must be fluent in Klingon. The language created for the "Star Trek" TV series and movies is one of about 55 needed by the office that treats mental health patients in metropolitan Multnomah County. "We have to provide information in all the languages our clients speak," said Jerry Jelusich, a procurement specialist for the county Department of Human Services, which serves about 60,000 mental health clients. Although created for works of fiction, Klingon was designed to have a consistent grammar, syntax and vocabulary. And now Multnomah County research has found that many people - and not just fans - consider it a complete language. "There are some cases where we've had mental health patients where this was all they would speak," said the county's purchasing administrator, Franna Hathaway. County officials said that obligates them to respond with a Klingon- English interpreter, putting the language of starship Enterprise officer Worf and other Klingon characters on a par with common languages such as Russian and Vietnamese, and less common tongues including Dari and Tongan. --- From aogletree Sat May 10 22:21:02 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:21:02 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] An urgent plea from the Chief Justice [of the state of Florida] Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030511/464dd3a4/attachment.htm From mardigras23 Sat May 10 22:42:38 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:42:38 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] plea for DCA bios Message-ID: I have only received the biography of Josh Lynn thus far. I would like to begin the countdown tomorrow night or monday at the latest. All of you who have volunteered to write bios- please e-mail them to me asap. thanks, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From miamidebate Sun May 11 02:12:19 2003 From: miamidebate (Miami Debate Team) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Jay or DM from Wayne In-Reply-To: <20030510231747.EB2963DB0@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: <20030511071219.48913.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, sorry to be a pain but could one of you get back to me as soon as possible? I'm trying to get some sites to help with a paper I'm working on this summer.Thank you in advance! Lincoln --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030511/609b0c4d/attachment.html From BelHomme Sun May 11 16:20:19 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:20:19 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] CRAZY ASS LINK STORIES (QUEER IR?) Message-ID: <1dc1601c31803$1faf3350$0a0d010a@mail2world.com> how on gods green earth do you get a generic link to queer opression from international law. if someone has this kritik look it up and let me know. i am even reading the book that this k came from and i cant find the link. is it a good link story in everyones opinion, or are we talking about something like linking the use of no. 2 pencils in standardized testing to nuclear war? andy ps... does queer ir link to any non-human rights based treaties? _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030511/2ff2cbb8/attachment.htm From jackattack7 Sun May 11 16:45:34 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:45:34 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] shameless pandering: a taste of www.phallujerkins.com Message-ID: well ladies and gentleman, the time has cum! www.phallusjerkins is up and almost running. a few months ago, i had the entire www.planetdebate.com evidence selection downloaded and stored at another location. "somejealousbody" hacked into the said site and destroyed all of the information. dallas stole other stuff too like an automated mirroring program that would have proliferated phallusjerkins around the globe. but we still got the shell. we are going to cummence w a forum on the apparently prima facie "expanded case list IAC" establishing a specific discussion group for freedom of information in debate. dallas perkins may have won the first battle destroying the downloaded information, but he is going to have a hard time over the long-term. quick shooters usually have to have their prostrate removed at some point and dallas is no different. WE HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF CONTINUING THE PIRACY IDEA THAT FAILED BECAUSE WE CAN'T MATCH BLOW FOR BLOW THE FINANCIAL POWER OF A CORRUPT TEXAS MILLIONAIRE DABAIT TYCOON! THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF THE SLF AT THIS POINT IS TO SEEK AN INTERNAL REFORM THROUGH THE INEVITABLE INEVITABLE INEVITABLE TRANSFORMATION OF THE CASEBOOK INTO A COMMUNITY RUN INFORMATION DATABASE DESIGNED TO COUNTER ARTIFICIAL COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGES OBTAINED BY THE ILLEGAL ILLEGAL ILLEGAL USE OF PAID RESEARCHERS AT THE BOTTOM OF SYSTEMIC DABAIT ELITISM. PIRACY IS UNNECESSARY. THE BEST ARGUMENT FOR FREEDOM OF INFORMATION WILL WIN IN THE FORM OF A CRITIQUE OF COMMODIFIED INFORMATION AND CORPORATE DABAIT STRUCTURES. THE STATUS QUO POLICY DABAIT LOSAS FACE INEVITABLE DEFEAT. this is a rough and ready homepage. WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR FEEDBACK FOR IMPROVEMENTS OTHER THAN SHUTTING DOWN THE SITE. the site will become user interactive this week unless dallas pulls more of his dirty tricks that have "forever" donned him the hilarious nickname PHALLUS JERKINS!!! HA HA HA!!! the merry pranksters are here to stay!!! the 'police dabait model' and its advocates will be destroyed!!! HA HA HA!!! the hors d'oeuvres have been served!!! get ready for the main course @ a theater near you real soon!!! stromboli/kolakowski films _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jackattack7 Sun May 11 17:08:59 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:08:59 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] FEEL FREE TO JOIN THE PHALLUS JERKINS DABAIT LEAGUE NOW!!! Message-ID: dear listeners, i was wrong again. membership options are already available otherwise the site is still largely non-interactive. please, join we plan to overtake www.planetdebate.com in less than one year's time for the simple reason that our entire site is free and we don't provide free services to make our site not look like the evil corporate entity that it is. this is no masking strat to answer critiques of commodified information. we don't post "free" all over the site to psychologically manipulate you into thinking that you are not "paying" for the evidence that you are. we don't require an email address to get the caselist that require you to receive fucking bogus planet debate advertisements regarding update packages. we are not the fucking assholes that harvard are providing 'free caselists' getting you involuntary 'free advertisements for the huge planet dabait product line of evidence packages tailored to the rich, the poor and anyone in between. millionaires like dallas can afford platinum membership on his site. phallusjerkins pisses on millionaires and gives them no special treatment on our site. NO PHALLUS JERKINS IS NOT THE SAVVY COERCIVE FUCKFACE THAT DALLAS PERKINS IS. dallas ranks right up there with franklin, graham, bush's born again envoy is blackmailing iraqis to become christian so that they can get humanitarian aid. no tricky corporate advertising or manipulation just plain good ole onion style dabait parody. there is no planet debate fine print @ the superior phallus jerkins. this is no fictitious in-round K alternative. this is the real deal war with policy debate and its elite icons. another reason to reject www.planetdebate.com in favor of www.phallusjerkins.com is the fact that we have NO CENSORSHIP POLICY on our site like dallas, the fundamentalist christian patriarch, has on his site protecting children and adults alike from sexually suggestive language and ancient ad-hominem strategies of discourse. just like the NDT, dallas the pig is protecting everybody so that ONLY DABAIT as defined by the biggest dick in dabait history, dallas perkins, takes place on his forums. no henry miller, no porno just the args for sale. free speech and free information beat elite harvard censorship and commodified ev, anyday, as long as you are faithful to the true impetus of democratic debate and not a sold out phony profiteer!!! goodnight, pjerkins at harvardabaitfailure, inc. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jackattack7 Sun May 11 21:01:34 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 02:01:34 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] shameless soliciting of graphic designs Message-ID: how bout that damn harvard insignia w skull & bones and jerkins in lieu of the elite Latin crappola? we need more. debord was king of detournement for a day or two. let's scramble the messages and decode the code just like korcok likes it. turn everything in policy dabait upside fuckin down. HA HA HA!!! i know some of you have great skills in this area. we don't pay much but we will give you credit on the site if you so desire. just make sure it's funny. rumors are that we got a modified demon deacon mascot image in the backfiles. step back. get ready. here cums phallus jerkins, the mastadabaiter par excellence!!! _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From SSbauschard2 Sun May 11 21:12:19 2003 From: SSbauschard2 (SSbauschard2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:12:19 EDT Subject: [eDebate] shameless pandering: a taste of www.phallujerkins.com Message-ID: <1c7.9845160.2bf05d03@aol.com> Also accessible at http://phallus.schiros.net/ Other info at http://www.schiros.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030511/e83c1b02/attachment.html From Jrwatchtower Sun May 11 22:06:44 2003 From: Jrwatchtower (Jrwatchtower at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:06:44 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Glueboy or anyone who can contact him - URGENT! Message-ID: I need to speak with Glue quickly so if anyone out there has contact info or if you see this, Glue, get a hold of the Regis Boys qiuckly! Its urgent! Peace, John Rief Regis University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030511/c227d1c1/attachment.htm From debatekorea Mon May 12 09:39:58 2003 From: debatekorea (Jason Jarvis) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:39:58 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique Message-ID: This link may be old news, but since I understand that "Empire" is being quoted ad nauseum by folks, I thought it might be useful reading for answers to the book. This fellow dont think so highly of all the praise and attention the text has gotten. jj http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/20/oct01/empire.htm Jason L. Jarvis Visiting Professor Graduate School of Journalism and Communication Kyung Hee University 1 Hoeki-dong, Dongdaemun-ku Seoul 130-701, Korea home:82-2-957-2305 mobile: 82-019-381-2305 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jason Mon May 12 10:45:34 2003 From: jason (Jason Regnier) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:45:34 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique References: Message-ID: <000701c3189d$872b4d80$313a71a4@fhsu.edu> man, i'm no fan of h&n, but this dude is painful to read. -- "No, Hardt and Negri do not regard Empire as good news. They regard it as Marx regarded capitalism: something so bad that it would necessarily perish of its own badness." its no surpise they can't read hardt and negri when they can't even read marx. (nb arlee ;-). -- "the policies of the Reagan administration brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union" lol. -- "Hardt and Negri are both children of the 1960s, Hardt by adoption, Negri because he participated in them to the hilt." those poor souls. -- "Although written in the abstract language of the graduate seminar, Empire has an ominously pragmatic aim: to undermine faith in the liberal institutions that inform American democracy. It is a poisonous book whose ultimate goal is not to understand but to destroy society." we could only hope so... jason From jhutchin Mon May 12 11:22:29 2003 From: jhutchin (Jeremy Hutchins) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:22:29 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Summer Debate Workshop -- Kansas City Message-ID: Johnson County Community College will again host the Kansas City Debate Cooperative between July 31st and August 10th, 2003. I would like to invite students and coaches alike who are interested in getting a head start on next year's topic in a cooperative environment. I have tried to keep cost to a minimum while extending the length of the workshop and attempting to offset expenses for those who volunteer to help. The cost for students who need housing will be $450.00 and the cost for commuting students will be $150.00. Fees will be used to pay for housing, a complete set of evidence for each participant, and to help offset hotel costs for coaches who volunteer their time to work at the camp. The hotel for the KCDC will be the Chase Suites in Overland Park, Kansas. The suites include two bedrooms with a full kitchen. There is a free hot breakfast each morning, a manager's reception each afternoon, and health club facilities on site. You can see more about the housing at http://www.woodfinsuitehotels.com/. Last year we had about 25 people attend the KCDC. I hope we can reach that number or grow a little this year. If you are interested in attending as a student or in volunteering your time as a coach, please let me know as soon as possible. And, please let me know if I can answer any questions or help in any other way. Thanks -- Jeremy Jeremy Hutchins Debate Coach Johnson County Community College (913) 469 8500 Extension 4587 From mmk_savant Mon May 12 11:27:04 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:27:04 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier Message-ID: Jason Regnier laughs out loud: "the policies of the Reagan administration brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union" lol. well, they are correct on this, i think, and you are not. in 1979, on the mass media topic we ran extremely low frequency submarine communications at MIT. one advantage was collapse of the USSR. there were half a dozen DoD and NSC papers from 1978 and 1979 that argued that the USSR economy was structurally hopeless, that the only thing keeping the communists in power was the military prestige of the Soviet Union as a superpower and that if the US substantially increased military spending, the USSR couldn't possibly keep up. we read several cards in that advantage from DoD, NSC and State Department analysts that predicted that the resultant realization that the Soviet economy would crumble if the USSR tried to keep up and that realization would end the communist hold over the USSR. 2 sources predicted collapse within a decade or so. there was a fairly big stink because these folks were bucking their bosses in the Carter White House. the Reagan administration subsequently got elected and did just that. those analysts were pretty much exactly on-target. all the rest is just excuse-making and revisionism by those who opposed Reagan. thank you for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/77e5da65/attachment.html From ccooper Mon May 12 11:43:02 2003 From: ccooper (Christopher Cooper) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:43:02 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier Message-ID: <0F59059F65E5BA4292E061E8A733707114328D@exm01w.apac.planning.org> Maybe Jason wasn't laughing so much at the validity of the statement as the fact that the strategy required the contraction of federal social service spending in order to divert funds to massive defense build-ups, goading the Soviet government to do the same thing until its entire economy collapsed. Maybe what is funny is not THAT it worked, but HOW it worked. But not funny ha-ha. COOP -----Original Message----- From: Michael Korcok [mailto:mmk_savant at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:27 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier Jason Regnier laughs out loud: "the policies of the Reagan administration brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union" lol. well, they are correct on this, i think, and you are not. in 1979, on the mass media topic we ran extremely low frequency submarine communications at MIT. one advantage was collapse of the USSR. there were half a dozen DoD and NSC papers from 1978 and 1979 that argued that the USSR economy was structurally hopeless, that the only thing keeping the communists in power was the military prestige of the Soviet Union as a superpower and that if the US substantially increased military spending, the USSR couldn't possibly keep up. we read several cards in that advantage from DoD, NSC and State Department analysts that predicted that the resultant realization that the Soviet economy would crumble if the USSR tried to keep up and that realization would end the communist hold over the USSR. 2 sources predicted collapse within a decade or so. there was a fairly big stink because these folks were bucking their bosses in the Carter White House. the Reagan administration subsequently got elected and did just that. those analysts were pretty much exactly on-target. all the rest is just excuse-making and revisionism by those who opposed Reagan. thank you for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/c8b5b40a/attachment.htm From ssnider Mon May 12 11:53:47 2003 From: ssnider (Sarah J. Snider) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:53:47 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate Message-ID: <1052758427.3ebfd19be16f7@webmail.uvm.edu> As the DC Urban Debate League is looking at debate camps this summer for our students, I came across an issue that I thought I would ask about. Some of our UDL coaches are concerned about their student?s reading levels. Some of our students are experiencing basic deficiencies in literacy. The coaches in D.C. are concerned about sending students for whom this is their experience to debate camps where they might just get lost in the shuffle. Over and over again I see it happen in labs, the most ?productive? student is the one we rely on the most to get the job of the lab done. Repeatedly people teach to the top of their lab. I know there are some exceptions to this norm, but my experience tells me that this is the norm. Let?s face it, we are debate people and very few of us have formal training in teaching people to read. I know that a number of debate institutes work actively to attract urban debaters, and I have been at many workshops where more than one lab leader has struggled with how they should deal with a student or two in their lab that doesn?t read very well. What if anything do any workshops do to prepare their faculty to respond to the potentiality that a student might not be at the same ?level? as the majority of their lab? Are there structural changes that are made to the way that labs are assigned, or the ways in which the faculty is trained? Does confrontation with this issue affect any ?tracking? policy that you may have? I know that debate can drastically change the lives of students who are now 14, 15, or 16 years old with basic literacy challenges. I believe that these students can become more literate with debate. I think these students are some of the most important students that we can come across during our summer teaching experiences. Does anyone who has dealt with this in the past, as a student, lab leader, or institute administrator have any advice on this issue? Sarah PS- I bet that none of this is unique to Urban Students. -- From paul-bellus Mon May 12 12:01:08 2003 From: paul-bellus (Paul Bellus) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:01:08 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Paul Bellus is looking for a second session institute job... In-Reply-To: <126.27dac0a4.2bd8cc03@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c318a8$15908130$af87ff80@ACBDF> Institute directors: I have come into some additional time during the summer and would like to work at a second session summer institute. I will be coming off teaching the Senior Summer Program at Iowa and will have some working knowledge of the topic. If you are interested in hiring an old college and high school debate coach, please contact me at paul-bellus at uiowa.edu or call my offices at 319/335-0621. Thank you, Paul Bellus Coordinator of Forensics University of Iowa B12 International Center Iowa City, Iowa 52242 O 319/335-0621 F 319/335-2111 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/6525dbf3/attachment.html From paul-bellus Mon May 12 12:03:23 2003 From: paul-bellus (Paul Bellus) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:03:23 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] FW: Paul Bellus is looking for a second session institute job... Message-ID: <000501c318a8$65ad3b90$af87ff80@ACBDF> Institute directors: I have come into some additional time during the summer and would like to work at a second session summer institute. I will be coming off teaching the Senior Summer Program at Iowa and will have some working knowledge of the topic. If you are interested in hiring an old college and high school debate coach, please contact me at paul-bellus at uiowa.edu or call my offices at 319/335-0621. Thank you, Paul Bellus Coordinator of Forensics University of Iowa B12 International Center Iowa City, Iowa 52242 O 319/335-0621 F 319/335-2111 Paul-bellus at uiowa.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/69ab8619/attachment.htm From vandy.debate Mon May 12 11:59:10 2003 From: vandy.debate (ML Sandoz) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:59:10 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Summer Meeting Deadline Message-ID: <20030512.115911.3100.3.vandy.debate@juno.com> Today is the last day to get hotel rooms at the reduced price. If you are going to attend the summer meetings, please make reservations today. Information about the meetings is on the CEDA webpage (CEDAdebate.org). Following the topic meeting we will be doing a lot of work and welcome everyone who can come to help. Finally, if you will be at the meetings, please email me (vandy.debate at juno.com) so I can plan an agenda that reflects the workforce assembled. Thanks, ml M. L. Sandoz Director of Debate Vanderbilt University 615-322-3784 (O), 615-322-2307 (O), 615-343-7918 (F), 615-673-7340 (H) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From serena_turley Mon May 12 12:16:44 2003 From: serena_turley (Serena Turley) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] CRAZY ASS LINK STORIES (QUEER IR?) Message-ID: <20030512171644.84742.qmail@web12807.mail.yahoo.com> Dude, If you can't get it by just thinking about it, you probably shouldn't be running this argument in the first place. Wake up and smell the homophobia, S-Dawg ------------------------------------------------------- how on gods green earth do you get a generic link to queer opression from international law. if someone has this kritik look it up and let me know. i am even reading the book that this k came from and i cant find the link. is it a good link story in everyones opinion, or are we talking about something like linking the use of no. 2 pencils in standardized testing to nuclear war? andy ps... does queer ir link to any non-human rights based treaties? ===== "Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help in the greatest of all causes -- goodwill among [hu]men[s] and peace on earth." ~Albert Einstein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From travisneal Mon May 12 12:16:31 2003 From: travisneal (Travis Neal) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:16:31 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier References: Message-ID: I am stunned that this debate is about to be waded into 1. on edebate 2. with a mere paragraph for an argument and 3. with no evidence cited except an allusion to an affirmative case run decades ago. For a brief recap of this debate please turn to Kramer in 1999 (Review of International Studies 25.4:539-76) and Wohlforth 2000 (Review of International Studies 26:327-331.) As for the brief recap, or rather The Truth that Korcok would like for us to believe: 1. Part of the reason why the realists can claim Reagan spent the Soviet union to death is because they fail to account for the near impossibility of seperating out ideas from material conditions as conditions for change. Given this difficulty it is easiest and politically advantageous to claim it was the material conditions that brought about a change. 2. I have yet to hear a compellign story about how the weak Soviet economy had extraordinary high levels of unemployment or social service failure. Yes, Korcok will probably cite statistics, but those statistics will not grasp a change in social services. There is a reason why the people revolted when they did and there had been no dramatic change in the quality of life for the Soviet people. 3. Yes, the Soviet economy may have been in shambles. But, it was always in shambles. William Conquest notes that the harvest of sorrows occured in Stalinism because the economy was incapable of industrializing without drastic measures. What changed from the previous decades that made the 80s a unique time to spend the Soviet Union to death? 4. Here is the missing account that best explains why the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Things were a mess and Gorbachev knew this. Gorbachev opened up the system allowing more freedoms and opportunities to the people. It is important to remember that Gorbachev planned reforms well before his ascension in 1985. This predates the reagan arms bonanza and the supposed concominant Soviet overconsumption. With the new reforms, the Soviet people were able to see that the state's justification of itself as a foe of the evil Americans was no longer legitimate or necessary. Since the Soviet State had abolished many of the means for manufacturing consent among the people, the people were able and desired to change the state. All of this woudl have happened without the Reagan administration. I do think reagan had a lot to do with the demise of the Soviet Union. Had he not been so willing to cooperate with Gorbachev instead of demonize him like the conservative camp really wanted then maybe the soviet Union woudl have retained legitimicay. Let us not forget that this revision of Reagan also elides one other important aspect, he wanted to see a world without nuclear weapons, and he actively strove for that world. Unlike the current consertvatives that cite Reagan as the killer of the Soviet Union. There is revisionism going on here, unfortunately Korcok, it is by the people you seem to admire most. Travis Neal U. North Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Korcok To: edebate at ndtceda.com Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier Jason Regnier laughs out loud: "the policies of the Reagan administration brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union" lol. well, they are correct on this, i think, and you are not. in 1979, on the mass media topic we ran extremely low frequency submarine communications at MIT. one advantage was collapse of the USSR. there were half a dozen DoD and NSC papers from 1978 and 1979 that argued that the USSR economy was structurally hopeless, that the only thing keeping the communists in power was the military prestige of the Soviet Union as a superpower and that if the US substantially increased military spending, the USSR couldn't possibly keep up. we read several cards in that advantage from DoD, NSC and State Department analysts that predicted that the resultant realization that the Soviet economy would crumble if the USSR tried to keep up and that realization would end the communist hold over the USSR. 2 sources predicted collapse within a decade or so. there was a fairly big stink because these folks were bucking their bosses in the Carter White House. the Reagan administration subsequently got elected and did just that. those analysts were pretty much exactly on-target. all the rest is just excuse-making and revisionism by those who opposed Reagan. thank you for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/d55c4fe8/attachment.html From ewarner Mon May 12 12:17:51 2003 From: ewarner (Ede Warner) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:17:51 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate In-Reply-To: <1052758427.3ebfd19be16f7@webmail.uvm.edu> Message-ID: <004a01c318aa$6b61e2f0$ac531442@EDE> Time and patience. I watched Ed Lee do the most amazing job of working with a young student who couldn't read at a camp. The student refused to speak because they couldn't read the cards. Through sheer determination and perseverance, she not only spoke but competed. It was one of the most transformative experiences of my career. Don't accept these students if you aren't going to: 1) be willing to investigate further into "hostile" students. This student didn't come out and say I can't read. But their refusal to engage was deeper and required a sustained effort to get at the root. 2) Have a plan on what to do with learning difficulties. If you are prepared, you can change a student's life. If not, you can run them away from debate forever. I've seen both and I've contributed to both, often unwittingly. Ede Warner, Jr, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Communication/Director of Debate University of Louisville Phone: 502-852-6976 fax: 502-852-8166 UofL Debate Society Webpage: http://comm.louisville.edu/~debate/ "I've told how debating was a weekly event there, at the Norfolk prison colony. My reading had my mind like steam under pressure..Once my feet got wet, I was gone on debating." --Malcolm X, Autobiography of Malcolm X, 1964 -----Original Message----- From: edebate-admin at ndtceda.com [mailto:edebate-admin at ndtceda.com] On Behalf Of Sarah J. Snider Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:54 PM To: edebate at ndtceda.com Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate As the DC Urban Debate League is looking at debate camps this summer for our students, I came across an issue that I thought I would ask about. Some of our UDL coaches are concerned about their student's reading levels. Some of our students are experiencing basic deficiencies in literacy. The coaches in D.C. are concerned about sending students for whom this is their experience to debate camps where they might just get lost in the shuffle. Over and over again I see it happen in labs, the most "productive" student is the one we rely on the most to get the job of the lab done. Repeatedly people teach to the top of their lab. I know there are some exceptions to this norm, but my experience tells me that this is the norm. Let's face it, we are debate people and very few of us have formal training in teaching people to read. I know that a number of debate institutes work actively to attract urban debaters, and I have been at many workshops where more than one lab leader has struggled with how they should deal with a student or two in their lab that doesn't read very well. What if anything do any workshops do to prepare their faculty to respond to the potentiality that a student might not be at the same "level" as the majority of their lab? Are there structural changes that are made to the way that labs are assigned, or the ways in which the faculty is trained? Does confrontation with this issue affect any "tracking" policy that you may have? I know that debate can drastically change the lives of students who are now 14, 15, or 16 years old with basic literacy challenges. I believe that these students can become more literate with debate. I think these students are some of the most important students that we can come across during our summer teaching experiences. Does anyone who has dealt with this in the past, as a student, lab leader, or institute administrator have any advice on this issue? Sarah PS- I bet that none of this is unique to Urban Students. -- _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate From serena_turley Mon May 12 12:33:03 2003 From: serena_turley (Serena Turley) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate In-Reply-To: <004a01c318aa$6b61e2f0$ac531442@EDE> Message-ID: <20030512173303.88065.qmail@web12807.mail.yahoo.com> I agree with Ede and Sarah - this is something that I've found myself struggling with this year as I try to help my high school students. Sometimes we just have to sit down as a group and take turns reading cards out loud to each other. We all chip in to break it down, going over words that people have trouble with and explaining concepts that are new to them. Some weeks, we spend the entire meeting going through three or four cards. I also try to have the students trade their research assignments with one another so they get some peer mentoring going on, too, and they learn to use each other as resources. Sarah, in terms of lab settings, I have had success with students who are able to learn the material by listening to it over and over rather than having to read it. I'm not encouraging canned speeches, but one year I had a student in lab who had extreme difficulty reading, but when we narrowed her speeches down to one issue, she was able to practice giving speeches over and over on that one issue until she felt more confident about taking other arguments. More emphasis was placed on analysis than on her reading a lot of cards, and she ended up getting 4th speaker at the camp tournament. Her self esteem and participation in lab increased dramatically as soon as she realized she could participate without having to reveal her literacy problems. Another problem I've come across - language barriers when English is the second language. I'm not sure how to adjudicate rounds where there is a misunderstanding between the two teams because of a language barrier. It's obvious to me that the studetns know how to explain their stuff inside and out, but cross-ex and rebuttals become problematic when the two teams don't know how to get past that divide. Any suggestions on how to deal with this as a critic? Is it warranted to stop the round or maybe pitch in during prep time to make sure everyone is on the same page? Just some thoughts I've been kicking around, Serena ===== "Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help in the greatest of all causes -- goodwill among [hu]men[s] and peace on earth." ~Albert Einstein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From stannardmatt Mon May 12 12:33:13 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:33:13 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate Message-ID: I can't pretend to have a comprehensive answer to Sarah's question, but here's one basic, foundational fact that comes to mind: Good student-staff ratios are vital to keep some students from falling through the cracks and being marginalized into menial and unchallenging work. 7-1 or 8-1 should be a minimum target--and 5-1 or 6-1 earns you a gold star. More than one leader per lab (with both showing up and being there all the time) is a great way to ensure this. I worked at one institute for seven years and saw (what I perceived to be) the staff shrinking and the students growing a little bit each year. In staff meetings I would often refer to the "corporate downsizing" going on. I saw conscientious, energetic lab leaders (including me) forced into situations where, because of time constraints and productivity expectations, some students weren't given the individual attention they deserved. It isn't just menial tasks that are symptoms of this problem--it's letting students take small assignments and disappear for several hours, it's lowering your own expectations as a lab leader, it's being tempted to work with the "stars" in your lab, whatever its level. As I said, I think this is a bad thing that happens to good people. Lab instructors are an idealistic, energetic lot, and they normally have great ideas which are stifled by excessive lab sizes, a symptom of excessive institute profit-motive and poor planning. Although good student-staff ratios are not sufficient to address all of Sarah's concerns, they are a necessary material element of any solution. Beyond that, never underestimate the power of peer teaching. One compliment to a good student-staff ratio is the ability of more experienced students to work with less experienced ones. Surely this would include the ability of those students to help one another with reading, say, during speaking drills or whatnot. But it all starts with a context where students feel they aren't one of 30 kids competing for the attention of their lab leaders and peers. In such a situation, I think that bright students who happen to have circumstantial problems reading or writing can find a safe place to work on those skills along with their debate skills. I have seen it happen. Just some thoughts. I imagine some nutcase will find some hidden political motive in them, but really it's just the result of my fifteen years of debate camp experience. stannard >From: "Sarah J. Snider" >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate >Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:53:47 -0400 > > >As the DC Urban Debate League is looking at debate camps this summer for >our >students, I came across an issue that I thought I would ask about. > >Some of our UDL coaches are concerned about their student?s reading levels. >Some of our students are experiencing basic deficiencies in literacy. The >coaches in D.C. are concerned about sending students for whom this is their >experience to debate camps where they might just get lost in the shuffle. >Over >and over again I see it happen in labs, the most ?productive? student is >the >one we rely on the most to get the job of the lab done. Repeatedly people >teach to the top of their lab. I know there are some exceptions to this >norm, >but my experience tells me that this is the norm. > >Let?s face it, we are debate people and very few of us have formal training >in >teaching people to read. > >I know that a number of debate institutes work actively to attract urban >debaters, and I have been at many workshops where more than one lab leader >has >struggled with how they should deal with a student or two in their lab that >doesn?t read very well. What if anything do any workshops do to prepare >their >faculty to respond to the potentiality that a student might not be at the >same ?level? as the majority of their lab? Are there structural changes >that >are made to the way that labs are assigned, or the ways in which the >faculty >is trained? Does confrontation with this issue affect any ?tracking? policy >that you may have? > >I know that debate can drastically change the lives of students who are now >14, 15, or 16 years old with basic literacy challenges. I believe that >these >students can become more literate with debate. I think these students are >some >of the most important students that we can come across during our summer >teaching experiences. > >Does anyone who has dealt with this in the past, as a student, lab leader, >or >institute administrator have any advice on this issue? > >Sarah >PS- >I bet that none of this is unique to Urban Students. >-- > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From paulj567 Mon May 12 13:10:46 2003 From: paulj567 (Paul Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Dr. Germ Message-ID: <20030512181046.89116.qmail@web11208.mail.yahoo.com> Wire report indicate the U.S. has caught the dreaded "Dr. Germ". Unfortunately both Magneto and Dr. Octopus remain at large. Couldn't that dude have a less stupid nickname, honestly? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From epmr Mon May 12 13:23:26 2003 From: epmr (Michael Roston the eminently practical) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:23:26 +0200 Subject: [eDebate] Literacy and Debate Message-ID: <1052763806.3ebfe69e72021@www.omnimail.sm> Many summertime high school debate camps have basic debate education as a secondary purpose behind more primary goals, which include: 1) talent development for collegiate debate programs, a "minor leagues"-type approach to recruitment, including exposure of students to specific university campuses 2) argument development, in which students are given an opportunity to focus much of their time on researching of intensive debating strategies 3) skills enhancement, in which students refine their understanding of advanced debate theories that have been summarily discussed in previous rounds and in their high school classrooms Although individuals exist within the above environments who are willing to take extra time for students with specific needs, they will be far fewer than most of the teaching staffmembers who will be present to focus on the (in my opinion entirely legitimate) business of debate. Any debate camp that does not prioritize basic debate skills development is unlikely to serve well students who are in a situation similar to the one described by Sarah. -- Michael Roston -what was your name, anyway? "Multinational life is cheap Soldiers, workers, maggots meat Get on up, protest right And use collateral damage at a legitimate target" -Primal Scream ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attiva la tua mail gratuita con Omnimail all'indirizzo http://www.omnimail.sm Il servizio ? offerto da Intelcom San Marino S.p.a. http://www.intelcom.sm From serena_turley Mon May 12 13:35:05 2003 From: serena_turley (Serena Turley) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] CRAZY ASS LINK STORIES (QUEER IR?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030512183505.93084.qmail@web12805.mail.yahoo.com> OK, So you?re serious about wanting to learn about Queer Theory and IR. I suggest that you start by learning the basics of Queer Theory before you try to look for applications in IR. Annamarie Jagose?s book ?Queer Theory: An Introduction? and Kate Bornstein?s ?My Gender Workbook? are a great place to start. They lay out the basics of Queer Theory in language that is accessible (unlike Butler) and they?re really fun to read. After you?ve got that under your belt, here are some cites you?ll want to read: 1. Cynthia Weber. ?Masquerading and the US ?Intervasion? of Haiti,? in Sovereignty and Subjectivity, ed. Jenny Edkins, et al. Weber?s main argument in this essay (as well as in others) is that the United States performs its gender in the way that foreign policy is carried out. The US views itself as masculine and must perform masculinity by feminizing other nations (since heterosexual relations are assumed to be the norm), either through trade policies (as in the case of Latin America ? Carmen Miranda is a queer icon, as well as a symbol of our policy towards Latin America) or through military actions. Notice the strong use of language like ?penetrating the enemy? in Bush?s discourse about bunker busters and the War Against Terror. Don't be intimidated by the language about strapping on the purple dildo. The point here is that the phallus is always already identified as the locus of gender identity and that when the United States feels like its masculinity is being threatened, it must find a substitute for the phallus to express its masculinity. Fun stuff, especially if you like going to the sex shop regularly. :^) 2. Cynthia Enloe. Bananas, Beaches and Bases. There is an entire chapter on Carmen Miranda. (Marjorie Garber?s book ?Vested Interests? gives a good explanation of the importance of Carmen Miranda to the queer community. During WWII, USO shows were a common pastime for troops stationed abroad. The most common character in these shows was Carmen Miranda. These shows allowed male soldiers to dress in drag in an openly campy ? queers love them some camp ? environment. This is an important thing to remember as you read Enloe and Weber.) 3. You might want to ask Nick Russell from ASU about this one ? he?s the resident expert on this ? but Campbell?s book ?Writing Security? has important arguments about the performance of national identity through IR. I?m not privy to all the specifics because I personally don?t read Campbell, but this will help you understand Weber a little better. 4. In terms of specific links, you may try conceptualizing this in reference to link areas: military policy, trade policy, development discourse, treaties/human rights. You will get the generic links you need in all of these areas just by reading the cites I?ve listed above. Wait until the topic wording comes out before you worry your little brain about finding those specific links about the #2 pencils causing nuclear war. But, obviously there are cross-overs between last year?s topic and this one (depending on how the wording goes down). You can read Brenda Cossman?s article about the ICC to get a good understanding of Butler (see list of cites below) ? Article 7(3) is a REALLY specific link example. Just out of curiosity, which book are you reading that is perplexing you? Maybe after you go back to Jagose and start with an understanding of what Queer is, that will clear up some questions. But without specifics, I can?t be much help. Here?s a reading list that should keep you busy. Lots of these cites are tons of fun to read. If you can make it all the way through Valdes (it?s broken up into four parts on Lexis, so be wary of that), you can officially say that you know what the links are to Queer IR. Enjoy! S-Dawg Butler, Judith. Gender Trouble: Gender Trouble and the Subversion of Identity. New York: Routledge, 1999. Cossman, Brenda. ?Gender Performance, Sexual Subjects and International Law.? The Canadian Journal of Law & Jurisprudence, July 2002. 15 Can. J.L. & Juris. 281. Doty, Alexander. Making Things Perfectly Queer. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press. 1993. Feinberg, Leslie. Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink or Blue. Boston: Beacon Press. 1998. -----. Transgender Warriors: Making History from Joan of Arc to RuPaul. Boston: Beacon Press. 1996. Jagose, Annamarie. Queer Theory: An Introduction. New York: New York University Press. 1996. Kastl, Rebecca. ?Sex, Sex Stereotypes and Discrimination: Sex Stereotyping in the Workplace.? Presented at the Over the Rainbow Conference, Arizona State University, March 29, 2003. (available via e-mail upon request) Morton, Donald. The Material Queer: A LesBiGay Cultural Studies Reader. Boulder, CO : Westview Press. 1996. Valdes, Francisco. ?Queers, Sissies, Dykes, and Tomboys: Deconstructing the Conflation of ?Sex,? ?Gender,? and ?Sexual Orientation? in Euro-American Law and Society.? California Law Review. 1995, 83 Calif. L. Rev. 3. Weeks, Jeffrey. Against Nature: Essays on History, Sexuality and Identity. London: Rivers Oram Press. 1991. P.S. Some other resources to look at ? the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC) has all kinds of stuff on their website about the global queer movement. They are a great resource for finding country-specific articles and have done a lot in terms of recognizing the trans community, something that not many ?mainstream? organizations are willing to do. Their address is www.iglhrc.org. ===== "Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help in the greatest of all causes -- goodwill among [hu]men[s] and peace on earth." ~Albert Einstein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mmk_savant Mon May 12 14:01:34 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:01:34 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse Message-ID: group them (including backchannel). my answers: 1. holy nuts in a squirel hole. what is so tough about this? late 1970s Soviet economy having a really tough time. 16th largest economy in Europe. but no regime change because it is a superpower, the BIG BAD BEAR, so Russians are eating cabbage soup but hey! they're the BIG BAD BEAR. US intell says, let's prove to them they're not so big or so bad, then they have NOTHING. Reagan says "OKEY DOKEY". they do. USSR collapses 10 years on just as predicted, planned and executed. game over. 2. Reagan did it. sure it wasn't the ONLY thing, but the loss of military prestige attendant to Star Wars was the main thing and the lousy Soviet economy could have held on, albeit anemic, for decades more without the Reagan shove. Explaining the Soviet Collapse by Peter Rutland, assoc prof government Wesleyan, 1996 ( http://archive.tol.cz/transitions/extheso1.html ) "Although there is no agreed story on why the Soviet Union collapsed, there is a surprisingly large number of aspects about which observers do agree. Most concur that the Soviet Union was a failed experiment, which had long ago lost its viability as an alternative model to Western capitalism. The only people who still believed in the Soviet model at the time of its demise were those (such as Andean guerrillas or South Korean leftist students) ignorant of how the Soviet system functioned. Nobody really expresses surprise that the Soviet system collapsed. What is puzzling is that it collapsed so quickly, in the space of two to five years, and that it collapsed when it did, in 1991, and not in 1933, 1953, or 2003. The fundamentally flawed nature of the Soviet system means that it had multiple weaknesses, any of which could have caused or contributed to its collapse. It is as if Hercule Poirot was given a case in which the victim had been poisoned, shot, bludgeoned, drowned, and frozen by different persons at different times. (Such was the unfortunate fate of Grigorii Rasputin, but in his case the various methods were serially applied by a known group of assassins.) Factors in the Soviet collapse include military, economic, and political dimensions, and can be grouped into long-term and proximate causes. In reality, despite the vituperation of some of their exchanges, Sovietologists do not substantially disagree about the factual record of what happened. The disagreement lies in the relative weight placed on them in explaining the Soviet collapse, particularly when it comes to the personal role of the top leadership. Historically, most empires collapse due to defeat in war, and the Soviet Union was no exception. Its troops were defeated on the ground in Afghanistan (withdrawing in 1989), but more seriously its military-industrial complex was defeated in the Cold War arms race. The Star Wars program, begun as a "scam" to bring the Soviets to the negotiating table, worked even better than expected, since Ronald Reagan sincerely believed it might work. The Soviet military knew that their economy could not afford to create a new generation of weapons, and opted for compromise-paving the way for arms reductions and, more importantly, eventual withdrawal from Eastern Europe. The fact that the military had already given up on winning the Cold War meant that they did not go to the mat to maintain the Soviet hold over the East that no longer had strategic value. Nobody denies that Star Wars gave the Soviet leaders a fright and helped tip the balance in favor of reform. The disagreement comes when one raises some counter-issues. For example: could Gorbachev's conservative rivals in the Politburo have negotiated military downsizing without triggering the Soviet collapse? On the economic front, the consensus has shifted since 1991. At first glance, most observers, noting the mounting shortages and runaway inflation of 1989?1991, are inclined to believe that economic inefficiency was the smoking gun that killed the Soviet system. Work by Vladimir Kontorovich and Michael Ellman, however, has shown that although the Soviet economy entered a period of flat growth in the early 1980s, there are no grounds for believing that the economy could not have stumbled on for many more years. They argue that it was the half-hearted reform program launched by Gorbachev after 1985 that disrupted the creaky functioning of the planned economy and triggered the dire economic conditions that led to the collapse. No one has come forward with any serious analysis to challenge the Kontorovich-Ellman view that the Soviet economy was still good for a few more decades (had Yuri Andropov's kidney not given out on him)." 3. no, no, nyet. the collapse was not "material conditions" and it wasn't "inevitable" and it wasn't "reformers like Gorbachev got power". you all still don't get what the Reagan Administration got in 1979. the collapse was occasioned by the annihilation of the RESOLVE of the dictator of a command economy. the bastards GAVE UP after it became clear that the USSR could not compete with the US as a superpower. Professor Mark Harrison of the University of Warwick, ARE COMMAND ECONOMIES UNSTABLE? WHY DID THE SOVIET ECONOMY COLLAPSE? 2001 ( http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/papers/twerp604.pdf ) "An alternative view is that the Soviet economy was murdered, or its death was decisively hastened, by voluntary acts of policy, though the consequences may have been unintended. Kontorovich (1993: 44), wrote: "We tend to confer the mantle of inevitability on accomplished facts, and arguing that what happened did not have tohappen is likely to be dismissed as inventing excuses for the losing side. But the collapse of the Soviet system was the unintended result of a small number of disastrous decisions by a few individuals" (see also Dallin, 1992; Ellman in Ellmanand Kontorovich, 1992, Treml and Ellman, 1993, and Ellman and Kontorovich, 1998;Khanin, 1992; Becker, 1994; Schroeder, 1995; Brown, 1997). Was the economy really unstable? The contemporaneous evidence, such as it is (Ofer, 1987; Bergson, 1989; Maddison, 1995; Easterly and Fischer, 1995; Harrison,1998a and forthcoming), is not favourable to the essentialist position. The historical real growth series from 1928 to 1987 show that Soviet productivity was rising. It rosealong a trend which was stable in the sense that the economy returned to it whensubjected to a disturbance (the disturbances were many and sometimes large,however). The welfare gain was large: between 1928 and 1987 GDP per head rose bya factor of five. Real consumption grew by less, however, and the welfareenhancement made possible by the growing availability of consumer goods andservices was diminished by shortages and other restrictions on variety and choice, andalso by both social and intertemporal inequalities. Returns to accumulation certainlydiminished, diminished more sharply than they should have by international standards, and diminished still more sharply after the mid? 1970s. But they were not negative. Until the mid ?1970s the Soviet economy was on the way to realising Stalin's ambition "to catch up and overtake" the advanced capitalist countries, but was doing it extremely slowly. After the mid ?1970s the underlying growth of Soviet productivity became too slow to enable the Soviet economy ever to catch up, but it remained positive and did not fall to zero. What about social stability? There is evidence of substantial popular support for postwar Soviet institutions (Churchward, 1975; Lane, 1976; Silver, 1987; White,1990; Bahry and Silver, 1990; Finifter and Mickiewicz, 1992; Bahry, 1993; Gibson,1993; Fleron, 1996). The main signs of Brezhnev ?era opposition were political dissent and emigration, but dissent was narrowly based, and ?migr?s remained loyalto basic Soviet values in many respects. The Gorbachev era provides survey evidenceto the effect that most people chose the extent to which they participated in state andparty institutions; the more they participated, the greater the influence they felt overoutcomes. They saw themselves as having more freedoms, with less censorship andwith less need for self?censorship, than many Americans and most black Americans.While significant majorities favoured the concepts of perestroikaand a marketeconomy, most continued to support state ownership of heavy industry and state guarantees of basic incomes and jobs; they did not want consequences of a market economy such as free prices, unemployment, or rich people.Thus according to the evidence the Soviet political economy of the early 1980s,while not very dynamic and certainly not problem?free, remained stable and had many attributes of legitimacy. Yet within a few years it collapsed. Why? .... First, command economies are not intrinsically unstable. Coercion can provide aframework for stable economic activity. Stability is always conditional, and the conditions for an equilibrium of high effort based on high coercion can be identified. Moreover, they may keep all the parties better off in terms of income than if monitoring and effort are allowed to collapse. Second, the Soviet economy was stable until it collapsed. It may be that adverse trends in monitoring costs ensured that one day it would collapse. However, such trends were exogenous to the command economy. The eventual collapse could not have been forecast on the basis of the command economy's intrinsic properties alone. Third, the dictator's surrender triggered Soviet collapse; workers' resistance may have provided a signal but did not force his hand. When the combination of high coercion and high effort ceased to maximise his gain, the dictator gave up; when the dictator gave up, producers gave up too. This served as a signal for the dictator's agents to initiate the process of power conversion with the consequences that we live with today. Fourth, the collapse of output in 1989?-92 was not a transformational recession arising from shock therapy. The economy was not suddenly exposed to market forces and stabilisation policies. The first shock to which the Soviet economy was exposed was not economic but political: the dismantling of the command system. The old transactions mechanism was destroyed, and nothing took its place. This is why Soviet output fell." thanks for reading, Michael Korcok _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From privethedge Mon May 12 15:18:35 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Some Info for CFL Nats Message-ID: <20030512201835.67359.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, For those coming to the NCFL tournament next week, and if you are staying in the Mariott Crystal Gateway hotel, the hotel is offering a $9.95 per day rate for DSL access to the internet. There is also a Kinkos located in the Cyrstal City Underground complex, which is accessible from the Crystal City Mariott, or the Mariott Cyrstal Gateway (the hotels are adjoining). I'm also happy to say that on Saturday evening, postings of those advancing to the break rounds will be done at the Hyatt, and online - so there will be no lack of ways to find out if you have to get up early on Sunday. If you have any other questions about the tourney, please ask. We are very much looking forward to welcoming you to Arlington. Duane Hyland, VP-Policy DebateWACFLAsst. Site Coordinator, Policy Debate, NCFL Nationals 2003 "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/07cfbc34/attachment.htm From privethedge Mon May 12 15:22:16 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] To DC Area Programs, and Anyone Else who is Interested Message-ID: <20030512202216.8619.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, As many of you know the Diocese of Arlington will be hosting the NCFL Grand National Tournament next weekend (May 23-25). Any area program, or any program for that matter, who would like to have recruitment information included in the diocesian packets (Those packets that are distributed out the High Schools) should contact me asap. If there are enough schools wishing to give out info, I might be able to hook you up with a designated space for distribution of that information during the tourney. If there is no demand for that, but if you have information you want to get out, we'll have to coordinate a way to get that done. Schools will be coming to this tournament from around the nation (including California and Washington State), so you really will reach a national audience. Please let me know if you are interested, and what your level of interest might be. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/151b17be/attachment.html From lawrencegog Mon May 12 15:46:03 2003 From: lawrencegog (lawrence williams) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:46:03 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] summer high school camp jobs???? Message-ID: My name is Lawrence Williams; I debated at Eastern New Mexico University this past year. I?m looking for a job at a high school camp this summer, working doing whatever there is to be done. Preferably, a job in the southern area of the U.S. would be best because my ability to travel in my car is limited. That does not mean i could not take a job somewhere else it just means i would have to figure something out. If there are any takers let me know and I would appreciate it. Lawrence Williams _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From cate_school Mon May 12 16:05:21 2003 From: cate_school (cate morrison) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:05:21 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] JMU LM presents: end of the year party Message-ID: no, we're not trying to steal the official thing and forcibly move it to the east coast, but we ARE having a party this weekend (saturday may 17th) and as i made an email list, i realized i was missing a TON of people. yeah, it's pretty late notice, but if this is in part a celebration of my undergraduate career coming to an end, nothing could be more aoppropriate than a late, half-assed invitation. so, while i might have targeted some of you more than others, you are all invited to harrisonburg, virginia and the apartment that morrison built for some end of the year fun. email me and i'll forward you the original invitation, which is much funnier (and more legally implicating) than this one. some frequently asked questions: so, i don't know you but i sort of want to come. is that cool? of course it's cool. we have an open door policy and love to meet new people. so, i sort of know you but think it would be awkward to show up... you think too much. if we're inviting the person above, we'd love to see you there. isn't harrisonburg in the middle of nowhere? well yes. but you need a roadtrip, i can tell, and we might even be able to hook you up with a ride. will D7 represent? is the pope catholic? for goodness sake, there will be beer there! how do i get there? find interstate 81. either go north or south. no, for real, i'll email you directions. what will the weather be like? weather.com says 50-66 degrees and a few showers. that sucks! you suck! stop complaining and free up your schedule! we hope to see y'all there! cate *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* catherine e morrison james madison university morrisce at jmu.edu america stop pushing i know what i'm doing --allen ginsberg, 'america' "when i give food to the poor, they call me a saint," said brazilian bishop helder camara. "but when i ask why they have no food, they call me a communist" -- eduardo galeano, 'upside down' _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From kenedebate Mon May 12 16:16:00 2003 From: kenedebate (Ken DeLaughder) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:16:00 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] reif..schrader.. regis folk Message-ID: Hey Im tryin to find vora, can one of you hook me up? Ken D ESU Debate "the swarm is stronger than any one hornet!" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From BelHomme Mon May 12 19:29:26 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:29:26 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] IN RESPONSE TO SERENA (AKA 101 REASONS HOMOPHOBIA AND I ARE A FUNNY COMBINATION) Message-ID: What the hell!?!?! anyone on the circuit who knows me will tell you that you calling me a homophobe is one of the most rediculous statetments in the world. i am openly homosexual, a future gender studies major, who is the son of a bisexual french immigrant. right, i mean i dare you to find one person who has ever met me who would come even near close agreeing with you. that is so rediculous, ask anyone on my squad how zealous i am about gay rights. most will tell you too much. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE HOMOPHOBIA? what part of anything i said was homophobic. i do drag for christs sake! oh and i shouldnt be running this argument. thats a laugh. i just asked about it because i have heard of it and couldnt get the link story. whats funnier? i wanted to know about it so i could get more in touch with queer lit! HOW DARE I TRY TO LEARN A NEW ARGUMENT, HOW DARE I LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT MY CULTURE... RIGHT SERENA. all my love andy _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/4993ff17/attachment.htm From Twocute4u63 Mon May 12 19:46:31 2003 From: Twocute4u63 (Twocute4u63 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:46:31 EDT Subject: [eDebate] To Serena - BE NICE! Message-ID: <188.196ecd1b.2bf19a67@aol.com> Hey.....DUDE......It's people like you that frustrate the hell out of me! Why do you have to hate on people who ask for help! Grow the fuck up! If you don't want to answer someone who asks for help, that's your choice but comments like "if you don't know, then you shouldn't run it" IS SO PATHETIC! I am sure there was a point in your debate career where you asked for help. Nobody is perfect! PLEASE BE COURTEOUS OF OTHERS WHO NEED HELP! And adding in assumptions that because one would ask about queer IR, that would automatically make them "homophobic" is ridiculous. Do you even know who wrote that post? A flaming homosexual! Before you make yourself look like an ass next time, THINK!!! AND BE NICE!! Mandy Trood >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dude, If you can't get it by just thinking about it, you probably shouldn't be running this argument in the first place. Wake up and smell the homophobia, S-Dawg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how on gods green earth do you get a generic link to queer opression from international law. if someone has this kritik look it up and let me know. i am even reading the book that this k came from and i cant find the link. is it a good link story in everyones opinion, or are we talking about something like linking the use of no. 2 pencils in standardized testing to nuclear war? ?? andy ?? ps... does queer ir link to any non-human rights based treaties? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/b971acdb/attachment.html From serena_turley Mon May 12 20:03:28 2003 From: serena_turley (Serena Turley) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] IN RESPONSE TO SERENA (AKA 101 REASONS HOMOPHOBIA AND I ARE A FUNNY COMBINATION) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030513010328.72783.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Dude, Fair enough. I tend to say shit without thinking most of the time. I'm always glad when people call me out. I mistook the comment about the #2 pencils to be kind of flippant, so I was answering what I thought to be a dis. Thanks for keeping me in check. Peace, S-Dawg ===== "Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help in the greatest of all causes -- goodwill among [hu]men[s] and peace on earth." ~Albert Einstein __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From Neesen Mon May 12 20:24:45 2003 From: Neesen (Neesen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:24:45 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] To Serena - BE NICE! Message-ID: <76A016BA.734AA653.0004EDAE@aol.com> YOUR TELLING PEOPLE TO BE NICE!!!!!Thats the pot calling the kettle... Bill From Neesen Mon May 12 20:24:47 2003 From: Neesen (Neesen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:24:47 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] To Serena - BE NICE! Message-ID: <558CFD27.27AAB0BC.0004EDAE@aol.com> YOUR TELLING PEOPLE TO BE NICE!!!!!Thats the pot calling the kettle... Bill From jbruschke Mon May 12 21:00:23 2003 From: jbruschke (Bruschke, Jon) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:00:23 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ADI alum kick butt at national tournaments Message-ID: As always, the ADI is proud of almost all of our alumni, except for those expelled from school, later arrested, or that we ourselves kicked out of the camp. But that's not very many. Seriously, we are very happy that every year the CEDA national tournament and NDT are filled with people who started the season at the ADI. As a gentle reminder, those seeking the early discount rate should register for this year's ADI by June 1; the dates and other information are at the webpage (http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/jbruschke/adi.htm). Enough commercializing: Here's our list of this year's group of ADI alum and research fellows who distinguished themselves at the championship tournaments (note I have very professionally listed them alphabetically by first name): 1) Adam Schur, all-american 2) Andrew Hoag, CEDA triples, all-american 3) Brynn Olson, CEDA triples, CEDA all-american 4) Catherine Quizon, academic all-american 5) Chris Losnegard, CEDA triples, all-american 6) Courtney Carver, CEDA all-american 7) Danny Wolnerman, CEDA doubles 8) Elizabeth Jones, academic all-american 9) Eric Forsulnd, CEDA all-american 10) Eric Sullivan, CEDA triples 11) Erik Mathis, CEDA triples 12) Greta Stahl, 5th speaker at NDT, NDT quarterfinalist, CEDA 3rd speaker, CEDA octos 13) James Thomas, NDT octo-finalist, CEDA octos, academic all-american 14) Jarrod Massey, CEDA all-american 15) Jason Giffard, CEDA triples 16) Jay Brower, 20th speaker CEDA 17) Jernard Sherman, CEDA triples 18) John Swords, all-american 19) Josh Clark, CEDA triples 20) Kacey Wolmer, 12 speaker at CEDA, CEDA doubles 21) Marissa Silber, CEDA doubles 22) Matt Farmer, NDT double-octofinalist 23) Melissa Newton, CEDA quarters, 17th speaker CEDA, academic all-american 24) Michelle Lancaster, CEDA Octos, 18th speaker CEDA, academic all-american 25) Mick Souders, CEDA triples 26) Mike Weitz, NDT double-octofinalist 27) Neil Blackmon, CEDA all-american 28) Phil Samuels, NDT double-octofinalist, all-american, CEDA triples 29) RJ Dolbin, CEDA octos, academic all-american 30) Sally White, CEDA doubles 31) Sara Spring, NDT double-octofinalist 32) Serena Turley, CEDA octos, all-american 33) Teddy Albiniak, CEDA triple-octos 34) Toni Bernacchi, CEDA all-american Apologies in advance to those who have slipped my notice, and congrats to all in this group! Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/e7f0c507/attachment.htm From katerichey Mon May 12 21:25:21 2003 From: katerichey (Kate Richey) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:25:21 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique article Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/4a5a1846/attachment.html From rob.eback Mon May 12 21:36:07 2003 From: rob.eback (Rob Eback) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] RE: ADI alum kick butt at national tournaments Message-ID: <20030513023607.725ECB714@xmxpita.excite.com> FYI, Erik Mathis and Jernard Sherman from Georgia State made it to doubles... so they kicked a little more butt than your post gave them credit for. :) Congrats MS... you achieved a lot. Rob GSU _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From tshuman Mon May 12 22:23:24 2003 From: tshuman (Terrance Shuman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:23:24 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique article: ans Richey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030512215341.00a2ab90@mail.magiccablepc.com> At 09:25 PM 5/12/2003 -0500, Kate Richey wrote: > >Oh no - not 'intellectual open season'!!! >just tragic. is this guy for real? Fortunately, yes. Of course, Kimball's article is a polemic, which entitles him to use a bit of astringency in his rhetoric. Funny how the rhetorical totalism of folks like Hardt & Negri scarcely raises an eyebrow, while a relative mild criticism of it by a distinguished scholar is cause for mockery... In the context of his article, there is nothing particularly objectionable about the phrase you mock. As for Kimball himself, he is Managing Editor of The New Criterion and an art critic for the London Spectator. His latest books are Lives of the Mind: The Use and Abuse of Intelligence from Hegel to Wodehouse and Art's Prospect: The Challenge of Tradition in an Age of Celebrity). He is also the author of The Long March: How the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s Changed America, Experiments Against Reality: The Fate of Culture in the Postmodern Age, and Tenured Radicals: How Politics Has Corrupted Our Higher Education. Kimball is a frequent contributor to many publications in the United States and in England, including The New Criterion, The Times Literary Supplement, Modern Painters, Literary Review, The Wall Street Journal, The Public Interest, Commentary, The Spectator, The New York Times Book Review, The Sunday Telegraph, The American Spectator, The Weekly Standard, National Review, and The National Interest. He is also a contributor to and co-editor, with Hilton Kramer, of Against the Grain: The New Criterion on Art and Intellect at the End of the Twentieth Century, The Future of the European Past: Essays from The New Criterion, The Betrayal of Liberalism: How the Disciples of Freedom and Equality Helped Foster the Illiberal Politics of Coercion and Control, and The Survival of Culture: Permanent Values in a Virtual Age. He also edited and provided introductions to an edition of Walter Baghot's Physics and Politics and Against the Idols of the Age, an anthology of writings by the Australian philosopher David Stove. He is on the Board of Advisors of the Gilder-Lehrman Institute of American History and the Board of Visitors and Governors of St. John's College, Annapolis and Santa Fe. What a bozo, eh? Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and...well, not so tall as I used to be, Terrance Shuman Bishop LeBlond Memorial High School St. Joseph, Missouri > >Kate > > >---------- >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and >get 2 months FREE* _______________________________________________ eDebate >mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the >subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030512/76654dd1/attachment.htm From stannardmatt Mon May 12 22:40:45 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:40:45 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] To Serena - BE NICE! Message-ID: I think Serena's subsequent post was very nice and, for me, educational. And I don't think her first post was all that mean. Everybody chill please. We might learn something. stannard _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From poirieredebate Mon May 12 23:55:54 2003 From: poirieredebate (Ryan Poirier) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:55:54 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] And the topic gets a little thicker Message-ID: US is bringing a case against EU over Genetically modified foods. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46685-2003May12.html See ya at Casino, Ryan Poirier WSU _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Tue May 13 00:50:16 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:50:16 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique Message-ID: Except for the constant descriptions of Hardt&Negri's work as popular, cliche, or fashionable and as hard-to-read, technical, and verbose (all of which would be wonderful indictments of Marx's theory of capitalism, Einstein's theory of general relativity, or Chomsky's theory of universal grammer, etc., i.e. Roger Kimball writes, "The words ?theoretical approach? should send a shiver down the spine of any sensible person."), the author of the cited text (who apparently lives on a ranch in unclaimed territory and doesn't go much for none of that 'book learning' no how) asks one paragraph of questions to which i'd like to respond: "Who knows what ?permeating entirely the consciousness and bodies of individuals? in the above passage means? Think about it: we are supposed to inhabit that ?society of control? Hardt and Negri describe (or warn about: they never describe anything without an air of admonition). In what sense does power or discipline or disciplinarity or whatever permeate ?entirely the consciousness and bodies of individuals??for example, you and me? In no sense. What, for that matter, are ?closed, geometrical, and quantitative logics?? Who knows? But the aura of bad news is unmistakable, and for intellectuals bent on promulgating anguish bad news is glad tidings." Hardt&Negri were noting the passage from a society of discipline to a society of control (which is the bridge from Foucault to Deleuze). in a discplinary society, there are *gaps* where control does not follow you, meaning there is the possibility of not identifying yourself with biopolitical institutions: for example, notice the attention that the hours between 4pm and 6pm recieve in the child-disciplinarian literature and the mainstream news media - that is, there's a gap where children are not supervised and where individual freedom and mayhem can ensure. this is what Foucault was instrumental in detailing in his books 'Discipline & Punish' and 'History of Sexuality, v1'. but Deleuze pointed out (here: www.california.com/~rathbone/deleuze.htm) that we've moved into a society of control where the gaps are being reduced and eliminated, where biopolitical identifications are internalized, where our very consciousness and bodies are wholly disciplined. when one understands what the criticized work is saying (instead of simply knee-jerk reacting to it), then it makes more sense. so why all the 'pomo-language'? because they like to be exact. for example, disciplinarity is the activity of discipline, which connotates that discipline is not a stable institutional entity, but a set of practices often used by various institutions, a process, a virus. so too is 'Empire'. how can one call Hardt&Negri 'anti-American' when they're deploying a form of criticism that does not focus on individual nation-states? the Empire is much bigger than the country USA. as for whether Hardt&Negri are nihilistic, i think its a matter of perspective - i.e. when Marx predicted that capitalism would fall from the weight of its own internal contradictions (a prediction which would only be realized when capital has saturated all global markets, i.e. not yet), to the industrial bosses, this might be seen as dreadful, and to the proletarait, this might be seen as liberational. and i don't know what Kimball is referring to when he speaks of 'thoroghly discredited' Marxism - has there been a single decade without drastic economic flucuations? has new technology become less important to economic development? has the 'industrial reserve army' (unemployed folk) been eliminated? if the answer to these questions is yes, then perhaps Marx would be proven wrong - but i see his 'Das Capital' as still extremely relevant for modern life. i have my disagreements with Hardt&Negri certainly, but idiots like Kimball need to shut the fuck up - this says it all: "I won?t attempt to explain this for the simple reason that I haven?t a clue about what it means." ... if you don't know what something means, it might be helpful to figure it out *before* rejecting it out of hand. and if thomas paine were alive today, i don't think he'd be doing anything other than "undermin[ing] faith in the liberal institutions that inform American democracy" - because if 9/11 proved anything, it is the irredeemable failure of said institutions. .k _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From katerichey Tue May 13 01:28:17 2003 From: katerichey (Kate Richey) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:28:17 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique article: ans Richey Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/9ef32cd5/attachment.html From kkuswa Tue May 13 08:21:36 2003 From: kkuswa (Kevin Kuswa) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:21:36 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Dr. Germ References: <20030512181046.89116.qmail@web11208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c31952$9473de20$2774a68d@richmond.edu> dr germ is female. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 2:10 PM Subject: [eDebate] Dr. Germ > Wire report indicate the U.S. has caught the dreaded > "Dr. Germ". > > Unfortunately both Magneto and Dr. Octopus remain at > large. > > Couldn't that dude have a less stupid nickname, > honestly? > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > eDebate mailing list > eDebate at ndtceda.com > To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: > http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate From Twocute4u63 Tue May 13 09:02:09 2003 From: Twocute4u63 (Twocute4u63 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:02:09 EDT Subject: [eDebate] to stannard Message-ID: <8.378aede7.2bf254e1@aol.com> Nobody is going to learn shit if they get called out and criticized for asking questions. Even Serena understands....it was a mix up on her part. If you want to be cynical that's cool, but don't let if mess with people who are trying to learn. We are all now "chill," so don't even worry about it. Mandy Trood >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think Serena's subsequent post was very nice and, for me, educational.? And I don't think her first post was all that mean.? Everybody chill please. ? We might learn something. stannard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/7f727f06/attachment.htm From Twocute4u63 Tue May 13 09:04:51 2003 From: Twocute4u63 (Twocute4u63 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:04:51 EDT Subject: [eDebate] To bill Message-ID: <28.38132986.2bf25583@aol.com> and who are you???? Maybe if I knew you I could respond. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/f9724626/attachment.html From mardigras23 Tue May 13 09:07:26 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:07:26 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Dr. Germ Message-ID: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dude entries found for dude. dude Audio pronunciation of dude ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dd, dyd) n. 2. dudes Persons of either sex _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Twocute4u63 Tue May 13 09:11:12 2003 From: Twocute4u63 (Twocute4u63 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:11:12 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Re: To bill Message-ID: <30.3ed3d89e.2bf25700@aol.com> if your comment was because my post was a bit mean, you're probably right and it was. But I get worked up when people make fun of others who don't necessarily know as much as they do (especially with debate). It just makes me upset because I myself have only done a year in college debate, and there is a ton of shit that I don't know, and I don't want to have to worry being talked down if i need help. Mandy Trood -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/cd904b98/attachment.htm From GibsonIII Tue May 13 09:40:33 2003 From: GibsonIII (GibsonIII at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:40:33 EDT Subject: [eDebate] How to remove from edebate? Message-ID: <1e2.8ce101a.2bf25de1@aol.com> I apologize for wasting everyone's time, but I am having trouble removing myself from the list serve. Could someone backchannel the directions for removal? Thank you!! Trey Gibson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/ee448283/attachment.html From Mikedavis13 Tue May 13 11:33:11 2003 From: Mikedavis13 (Mikedavis13 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:33:11 EDT Subject: [eDebate] Dr. Germ Message-ID: That's the plural. The entry above it reads: 1. A man; a fellow. Mike In a message dated 5/13/03 7:11:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mardigras23 at hotmail.com writes: > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dude > > entries found for dude. > > dude Audio pronunciation of dude ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dd, dyd) n. > > 2. dudes Persons of either sex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/755bda01/attachment.htm From privethedge Tue May 13 11:34:27 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] To Everyone Who Responded in RE: NCFL Nationals Message-ID: <20030513163427.72721.qmail@web10002.mail.yahoo.com> HI, I'm just now checking with the League President, and others to see where we can best accomodate everyone in their desire to pass out info about their programs. I am checking to see if we have tables for actual on site presentations, or if we'l have to go the packet routes. We do have some space in the hotel, but it's a long counter, and might not have room for everyone, especially if you wanted to put up a banner or something for your programs. For those who contacted me in re: selling things (handbooks, briefs, stuff like that) I"m checking to see if there are any legal requirements that would have to be satisfied. I really don't know all the ins and outs of vending. If someone does, let me know. I will have a definite plan and answer for everyone by this evening. The response was overwhelming. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/ccc57e6a/attachment.html From nselegzi Tue May 13 11:34:51 2003 From: nselegzi (Noel Selegzi) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:34:51 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Re: Literacy and Debate Message-ID: <1CBED6247AC65445BF49BFDD3CC5DBC601430DB4@osinyexch.soros.org> In attempting to teach debate internationally, we have faced similar problems to what Sarah describes. In the majority of cases, our students are literate but they struggle working with text in English. At the same time, in some of the countries where we've worked we've been faced with literacy problems. What we've done in these cases is work with teachers trained in these areas to put together curriculum that both teaches literacy and debate. A great resource is the International Reading Association: http://www.reading.org/. Noel From debate_is_life Tue May 13 11:42:34 2003 From: debate_is_life (Eapen Thampy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:42:34 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] FEEL FREE TO JOIN THE PHALLUS JERKINS DABAIT LEAGUE NOW!!! Message-ID: man, you really need to get laid --- You lock the door And throw away the key There's someone in my head but it's not me. And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear You shout and no one seems to hear. And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes I'll see you on the dark side of the moon. -Pink Floyd On Sun, 11 May 2003 22:08:59 jack stroube wrote: >dear listeners, > >i was wrong again. membership options are already available otherwise the >site is still largely non-interactive. please, join we plan to overtake >www.planetdebate.com in less than one year's time for the simple reason that >our entire site is free and we don't provide free services to make our site >not look like the evil corporate entity that it is. > >this is no masking strat to answer critiques of commodified information. >we don't post "free" all over the site to psychologically manipulate you >into thinking that you are not "paying" for the evidence that you are. > >we don't require an email address to get the caselist that require you to >receive fucking bogus planet debate advertisements regarding update >packages. we are not the fucking assholes that harvard are providing 'free >caselists' getting you involuntary 'free advertisements for the huge planet >dabait product line of evidence packages tailored to the rich, the poor and >anyone in between. millionaires like dallas can afford platinum membership >on his site. phallusjerkins pisses on millionaires and gives them no >special treatment on our site. NO PHALLUS JERKINS IS NOT THE SAVVY >COERCIVE FUCKFACE THAT DALLAS PERKINS IS. dallas ranks right up there with >franklin, graham, bush's born again envoy is blackmailing iraqis to become >christian so that they can get humanitarian aid. no tricky corporate >advertising or manipulation just plain good ole onion style dabait parody. >there is no planet debate fine print @ the superior phallus jerkins. > >this is no fictitious in-round K alternative. this is the real deal war >with policy debate and its elite icons. > >another reason to reject www.planetdebate.com in favor of >www.phallusjerkins.com is the fact that we have NO CENSORSHIP POLICY on our >site like dallas, the fundamentalist christian patriarch, has on his site >protecting children and adults alike from sexually suggestive language and >ancient ad-hominem strategies of discourse. just like the NDT, dallas the >pig is protecting everybody so that ONLY DABAIT as defined by the biggest >dick in dabait history, dallas perkins, takes place on his forums. no henry >miller, no porno just the args for sale. free speech and free information >beat elite harvard censorship and commodified ev, anyday, as long as you are >faithful to the true impetus of democratic debate and not a sold out phony >profiteer!!! > >goodnight, >pjerkins at harvardabaitfailure, inc. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate > ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 From Sarah_Gragert Tue May 13 12:48:26 2003 From: Sarah_Gragert (Sarah Gragert) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:48:26 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Paging Gaurav Reddy... Message-ID: <00CAA9AC.C22126@dpc.senate.gov> Sorry to page you this way, but I couldn't find an email address for you. I was hoping to get an email address from you for a current Bellarmine student, or that maybe you could put me in contact with someone who might have it. If you could backchannel me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Sarah Gragert Georgetown From sara.apel Tue May 13 13:55:43 2003 From: sara.apel (Sara Elizabeth Apel) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:55:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [eDebate] Kenda Cunningham please Message-ID: <1052852143.3ec13faf9d5cf@webmailapp1.cc.utexas.edu> looking to get ahold of kenda-- i had to get a new cell phone and lost your # in the process. if you are her or know how to get ahold of her please email me. thanks, sara From BelHomme Tue May 13 14:55:47 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] To Serena - BE NICE! Message-ID: <04d101c31989$a5bac2c0$0a09010a@mail2world.com> riiight matt- serena and i are really cool now, we have talked it out and i think that she is a great girl.... but matt i can see what you are saying. "if you dont know an argument you shouldnt be running it"... sounds really educational to me... matt... i am sure you too are a nice guy and all but seriously... what are you talking about? i mean essintially i was called a homphobe (which was a misunderstanding about what the original queer ir link was about post), but it was at least for a queer kid who struggles against homophobia every day kinda mean... oh and yea not needing to learn about new positions... steller way to learn man... and i like using an entirely new post to tell people to stop fighting... if you believe it so much then here is a tip... STAY OUT OF IT! have a nice day all andy ps... gay pride in kc will be june 6-7-8... take pride in who you are or in your local queer community _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/d67251b4/attachment.htm From Greg.Achten Tue May 13 15:45:29 2003 From: Greg.Achten (Achten, Greg) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:45:29 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Paging anyone from Wayne State Message-ID: I am trying to get in touch with Mike Weitz. Anyone from Wayne or anyone who knows how to contact Mike would be greatly appreciated. Greg Achten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030513/f1dd32d7/attachment.html From jmartin Tue May 13 16:11:06 2003 From: jmartin (Josh Martin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:11:06 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Chico Party -- RSVP Now! Message-ID: <20030513211106.KWCX25705.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@smtp.registeredsite.com> Yo--- If you are planning on coming up to Chico for the party we need to know. (June 5-8, http://www.lowpointwin.com/special/party.html) Please send me an email, or there's some other contact info on that website. Enjoy that sun, Josh Martin From mardigras23 Tue May 13 23:05:46 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:05:46 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #10- Raja Gaddipati Message-ID: I figured I better start this countdown before it gets too late. I've had a very difficult time getting people to turn in the bios. Raja finished in a tie for 10th place with someone else whose bio I presently don't have. Hopefully I will be able to release it later tonight or first thing tomorrow. Raja received 24 total points (one fifth place, three fourth place, one third place, one second place, and two first place) The Life and Times of Raja Gotta-Party By Adam Goldstein, Tristan Morales, and Jeff Gaunt Raja Gaddipatti (prounced gotta-potty) joined debate in 1995 in large part to avoid student?s harassment of his name. One young Montgomery Bell Academy student in particular, bearing a strange resemblance to a young Shawn Powers consistently made Raja the brunt of phrases such as ?Gaddipatti?in the mouth of his mommy?. Raja was forced to turn to debate. While the wide open arms of, MBA director of debate, Billy Tate may have provided solace from the name calling, the Real Shawn Powers of Glenbrook North and Georgia lore would haunt Raja throughout his 8 (err.. 6) year career. His debate career at MBA can best be defined by one single, shining moment. (No not winning the Tournament Of Champions, although he did do that in 1999 much to the chagrin of young Lexington superstar Josh Lynn-Wolmer.) Raja?s defining moment came during his junior year when his completion of a lexis news search of ?Clinton? caused a total lack of sleep and soon caused him to snap. Up late reviewing recent posts to the CX-L, Raja peered deliriously into the mirror and asked ?mirror mirror on the wall who is the top debater of them all?? there was a rubble dubble, five minutes it lasted ? the mirror snapped back you are you conceded bastard. He then made informing CX-L posters of his top debater status a high priority. Those that did post were advised (in not so friendly terms) by the ?top debater of them all? to quickly find another hobby. Here, Raja was advised to take a leave of absence from the MBA debate team and his first hiatus from debate begun. Nonetheless, Raja eventually stumbled back onto his feet (a task he would repeat many times in his early Northwestern years), won the TOC his senior year, and left MBA happy. The years ahead at Northwestern looked promising. Promising until his first quarter grades were published at least? Unlike in high school, Raja would find the conflicts between academic performance and debate work more difficult to mediate than his homeland?s conflict over the Kashmir. Raja did start out well, clearing at the Northern Iowa tournament with fellow freshman phenom Jake Foster. The Northern Iowa tournament, however, took place before the beginning of classes at Northwestern. The resounding three-to-nothing decision for Lupowitz in the doubles of UNI marked not just the end of the tournament for Raja but also the end of Northwestern FG and the beginning of a long hiatus for Raja. As part of his transformation, lifestyle changes were also in order. He decided that changing clothes, showering, or watching any television program with a rating below NC-17 was antithetical to his modus operandi. While he wasn?t an active member of the Northwestern debate society, Raja selflessly devoted his nights to debate work for the Northwestern team. Debate work for the Northwestern team wasn?t the only outlet for either Raja?s energy or Raja?s nights, as he used the time off to pursue work coaching for Glenbrook South High School. Raja was so dedicated to his extra-curricular assistance that he decided to lend a helping hand to Northshore debaters, even those that didn?t attend Glenbrook South. By in large, however, Raja?s energies were largely dedicated to GBS. He developed into a great, great high school coach. So great in fact that one of his GBS pupils decided to have him continue his coaching even after she completed her debate career. As much as Raja must have taught this young pupil, she definitely taught him a thing or two. Soon enough, he was on the rebound and his Northwestern career once again looked bright. Slowly Raja begun channeling his energies back into Northwestern debate and the upcoming Indians topic. Glenbrook South?s loss was Northwestern?s gain as Raja cut more cards about Native Americans (err? federalism, the separation of powers, and process counterplans) than most people have seen in a lifetime. Raja here begun a partnership with another former Glenbrook South debater, although this one was not the kind of lifelong partnership of which he had previously hitched himself. Much like his new debate partner, Jim Lux, Northwestern GL?s rise to success on Indians was neither fast nor filled with good humor. In the double-octos of the Dixie two memorable feats were accomplished. First, Jim Lux was actually able to channel his strange addiction to the AmericanS with Disabilities Act into a big victory; second, Raja and Lux began one of the most remarkable days in debate history with a victory ofver future Copeland winners Alex Berger and Ben Thorpe. They would go on that day to defeat 5 of the top teams in the nation: including Dartmouth BT, Berkeley NS, Kentucky HT, Emory RW, and even Northwestern FP by virtue of seeding technicalities to win the 2002 Wake Forest Invitational. On this Indians topic, GL was often on the receiving of criticism for the savage like beatings they?d deliver opponents. After spending the summer blocking any piece of evidence that even reeked of the Kyoto treaty, Raja?s undying patriotism was truly put to the test in the quarterfinals of the Georgia State tournament when GL broke a Kyoto affirmative arguing in favor of US corporate control over the energy market and stable US leadership. Michigan State MS had somehow stumbled upon a card or two that ratification would cripple military readiness, GL had all of one card in response to this disadvantage that turned the whole case. The verdict is still out whether Raja simply didn?t get around to cutting answers or was simply unwilling to speak out in favor of anything that might have a negative effect on our men and women in uniform. Raja and Lux, however, once again quickly rebounded and made their presence known. The amount of debates in which their Kyoto affirmative was defeated through the rest of the year is only marginally larger than the amount of debates Raja won on the Africa topic. They were semifinalists at both Wake Forest and Harvard, and finalists at West Georgia ? once again solidifying their spot as one of the top debate teams in the nation. In all seriousness, Raja is the type of debater and person that only falls into the hands of the debate community once in a generation. The community would be hard pressed to find another debater who was even in the same class as Raja in their level of work, quality of research, or pure commitment to the activity. He has an uncanny ability to both lead a squad and grasp the arguments and innovations necessary for winning. His commitment and the example that its set has made both the Northwestern debate team and the debate community at large a better place. P.S. Any information leading to the arrest or capture of Arturo Escobar, dead or alive, should be directed to raja at northwestern.edu. There is a reward. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Wed May 14 01:14:57 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:14:57 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] empire critique article: ans Richey Message-ID: Shumyn: "Of course, Kimball's article is a polemic, which entitles him to use a bit of astringency in his rhetoric." you should know (from personal experience) that i don't mind astringent rhetoric, but some substance would be nice as well. calling some trend or author or whatever 'popular' doesn't mean it is any more or less important than if it were less popular; and labelling some work 'unreadable' (shakespeare? joyce? einstein? chomsky?) doesn't mean there's nothing profound there to be read. derrida, deleuze&guattari, and such like others have a lot of very useful conceptual tools - if you can't use it, then either look more closely or look somewhere else, or better yet, make an educated criticism which helps fashion a better tool. S: "Funny how the rhetorical totalism of folks like Hardt & Negri scarcely raises an eyebrow, while a relative mild criticism of it by a distinguished scholar is cause for mockery..." first, this guy is editor of a periodical entitled, 'THE NEW CRITERION' - what could be more totalizing than that? ... but more importantly, i agree there are very definite problems with Hardt&Negri's work - it is just too bad that Kimball didn't point any of them out. in this sense, you're right to say this was 'mild criticism' (though certainly bursting with dull ad hom) - his essay is not only unconvincing to those who've actually taken the time to study these authors, but it is quite obvious that this guy is only preaching to the already converted: you mean, neo-cons discount marx out-of-hand? woah, big surprise. Shumyn: "What a bozo, eh?" don't judge writers by their credentials ... i mean, what is this? 'an age of celebrity' or something? .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From let_the_american_empire_burn Wed May 14 01:20:31 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:20:31 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Regnier Message-ID: _ "the policies of the Reagan administration brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union" _ "the only thing keeping the communists in power was the military prestige" this is how bin Laden (with the clandestine assistance of the USA through Pakistani intermediaries) brought down the 'evil empire' ... expelling the Soviets from Afghanistan was like Vietnam cubed; the largest conventional military was soundly defeated through patience and unconventional ingenuity. all Reagan did was make Hollywood-quality speeches. ... anyway, one empire down, one more to go. .k _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Wed May 14 01:31:42 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:31:42 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse Message-ID: Korcok: "the bastards GAVE UP after it became clear that the USSR could not compete with the US as a superpower." so if they already 'GAVE UP', why would the Reaganite plan of 'out spending' the USSR have worked? (also consider Chomsky's hypothesis in the beginning of 'Deterring Democracy' that the 'Cold War' was an USA invention, of which the Soviets had no intention of 'winning'.) .k _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cpwiii Wed May 14 03:59:14 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:59:14 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse Message-ID: <000601c319f7$194a6bb0$38fe4cd8@cpwiii> Apologize for the bandwidth, but this is the nuttiest post ever to edebate. The tense of 'gave up' is about the time the idiot writer of the preceding post was born. Consider Chomsky--OOOH! The Soviets not only had no intention of winning, but they never wanted to play. If all you can do in defense of weak arguments is contradict yourself, take your ball and go home. Most sources agree Reagan beat the USSR--quit whining about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/602c6d2e/attachment.htm From privethedge Wed May 14 08:12:59 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Final Recruitment/Information Delivery Plans for NCFL Message-ID: <20030514131259.47750.qmail@web10007.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, OK..for everyone who responded, here is the needed information. The NCFL has approved everyone's request to deliver program information. There are three manners in which this can be achieved: 1) You may provide to me 550 copies (one per attending school) of any information you want put into the Diocesian packets. This information can't be bulky, or large (letter sized paper would be apprecieted). This information must be to me no later than Tuesday, May 20th. It will be placed in the packets on Thursday, May 22nd. You may, if you are in the area, and don't want to bear the mailing costs of 550 items, come to the Marriott Gateway Crystal City between the hours of 1pm and 3pm on Thursday, May 22nd, to the Arlington Office (located on the 2nd floor of the hotel, opposite of the ballroom) with the information. I will then stuff it in the packets - with your help). 2) You may set up a space at the hotel on Friday, May 23rd, or Sunday, May 25th. However: A. The costs of any set ups must be paid by your school. B. We are not sure about spacing yet, and will have a clearer picture on the 19th. We do have one space that I know of, right outside the ballrooms where the elim rounds will be announced and take place, but it's just a long counter, and is tight... 3) Add space is available in our program for $75.00 donation to the League. Please let me know, ASAP, what method you will use (especially if its the on site method at the hotel, so I can determine space needs) (If you plan to use the onsite method, I need to know this by this Friday). Thanks, Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/e206bb8e/attachment.html From travisneal Wed May 14 09:08:28 2003 From: travisneal (Travis Neal) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:08:28 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse References: <000601c319f7$194a6bb0$38fe4cd8@cpwiii> Message-ID: You take your ball and go home. Maybe most sources agree with it because there is financial incentive to view the world that way. Or maybe because it is the easiest theory to explain what happened. Parsimonious theories are rarely correct, including your theory of the respondent's (Sanchez's) age. Avoid the ad hominems and maybe people will take you seriously. Until then try reading somethign beyond the New York Times Bestseller List. Travis Neal U. North Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: cpwiii at bellsouth.net To: edebate at ndtceda.com Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [eDebate] USSR collapse Apologize for the bandwidth, but this is the nuttiest post ever to edebate. The tense of 'gave up' is about the time the idiot writer of the preceding post was born. Consider Chomsky--OOOH! The Soviets not only had no intention of winning, but they never wanted to play. If all you can do in defense of weak arguments is contradict yourself, take your ball and go home. Most sources agree Reagan beat the USSR--quit whining about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/f780f97c/attachment.htm From PlaeDoh Wed May 14 10:41:08 2003 From: PlaeDoh (PlaeDoh at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:41:08 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Joe Carver or delete Message-ID: <57336070.3E8C199A.00196085@aol.com> Joe, could you get in touch with me dawg? email or phone, I have the same 718 #. p'z Danny Bell From aogletree Wed May 14 11:43:27 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:43:27 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/fab6b335/attachment.html From privethedge Wed May 14 13:41:33 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030514184133.73585.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmmm...I'm confused...the West was bad because of things like racial discrimination, OK..that I get....but, are you saying the USSR was some paradise for people escaping racial discrimination? That Stalin was better than Wallace? Your cant confuses me. "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/5c543907/attachment.htm From travisneal Wed May 14 17:13:28 2003 From: travisneal (Travis Neal) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:13:28 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] USSR collapse References: <20030514184133.73585.qmail@web10004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do not think anyone ever made any claim about an idyllic Soviet Union. If anything, Stalin's lack of desire to communize the world makes him even worse because he divorced himself from any precepts of justice and was concerned exclusively with a quality of life for himself and those near him. Here is why I think you misunderstood the argument. You are so quick to pick a fight with "leftists" that you overdetermine the arguments into something so idiotic and insane that you cannot help but remark. I could be wrong but as an observer of several of the clarifications like the one above "are you saying..." that is the impression I get. The Soviet Union was a terrible place to live, I do not see anyone countering that claim. But, the United States was made a less pleasant because of a rampant militarism that was ultimately unnecessary. That is "our" argument. Travis Neal U. North Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: Duane Hyland To: Aaron Ogletree ; edebate at ndtceda.com Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [eDebate] USSR collapse Hmmmm...I'm confused...the West was bad because of things like racial discrimination, OK..that I get....but, are you saying the USSR was some paradise for people escaping racial discrimination? That Stalin was better than Wallace? Your cant confuses me. "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/7c7542c9/attachment.html From mardigras23 Wed May 14 18:13:16 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:13:16 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #10- Jonah Feldman Message-ID: Jonah tied with Raja for 10th place and received 24 total points. Jonah received one fifth place, three fourth place, three third place, and two second place votes. Jonah Feldman's Bio by Gabe Scannapieco Fortunately, I was granted temporary property rights over Jonah for a couple of hours by MSU SS and Whitman BO so I could pen this biography ?- as soon as I am finished, I will return Michigan FO?s ownership back to them. Man, Jonah, you?re like ten years older than those kids? On a more serious note, I am glad to see that Jonah was selected to be one of this year?s recognized DCA debaters. I am sick and tired of seeing all sorts of young debaters winning these awards. It is a relief that the community has finally decided to recognize the influence of their ancestors in the activity?and for that I salute you. I do not believe that Bonilla ever received any recognition in the DCA?and I am appalled at this lack of respect for the multi-senior-year-generians in the activity...well maybe not all?WGA has had its own selections in the past. But, I digress, on to the timeline? Please pay attention. Jonah?s college debate career plays out like an episode of behind the music. There is lots of sex, drugs, and rock and roll?and a rise, a terrible fall from glory, then a second rise, more of a rise, and finally the DCA! So, all ships at sea or whatever, here we go! 1993-1997: HIGH SCHOOL DEBATE I did not know Jonah during this time. I heard he was very successful. That he was cuddly and cute -- just like a koala bear. All I remember is that he attended the Michigan Camps at the same time that I do. That?s all I know. I am sure there is some sex, drugs, and rock and roll?I mean, its Jonah. He graduated in four years? 1997-1998: FRESHMAN YEAR. Jonah?s march to the DCA began in Jason Hernandez?s apartment on Division Street in the summer of ?97. It is there where I was introduced to Jonah for the first time. As I sat on the couch watching America?s Most Outrageous Police Chases Caught on Tape, the still young Feldman captured my attention by consuming an entire box of Cornflakes with only the aid of a half-gallon of milk, a serving bowl, and his gut. Lord have mercy! That Rooster on the box never saw it coming. From that time on, in my heart, Johan has always been ?Kellogg.? Over time, Jonah would continue these super-human feats of eats ? often after mysteriously emerging coughing from a room with tie-dyed tapestries filled with the melodic sounds of Phish and the Grateful Dead. Sensing the great debate potential in the spry and ever hungry Feldman, Steve Mancuso judiciously arranged the team pairings so that Jonah would debate with Dan ?the Hand? Samson. A bold move that would assure Jonah?s debate career would extend from 1997 well into 2003. Jonah and Dan rode the ?fish-wars? wave throughout the year and scored a mighty victory for all Southeast Asian Fishermen (insert kritik here) by advancing into the elimination rounds of Novice Nationals. Upon returning home, laden with the spoils of victory, Jonah proceeded to celebrate by eating a piece of pizza that was lodged under Hernandez?s coffee table since preparations for the Kentucky tournament. As a further show of his solidarity with the Michigan debate team, Jonah decided to use the answer ?Fish Wars? on all of his final exams that year?also assuring he would debate well into the 21st century. Jonah continued his success at the Michigan debate camp. He was the first person other than Mancuso to ?hire? an RA to cover shifts. Unfortunately he hired someone to cover his shifts?he was quickly unemployed. 1998-1999: SOPHOMORE YEAR The next year, Jonah was separated from his long time love in Dan and forced to debate with one of Michigan?s many illicit Cuban imports of the mid to late 90s. The team faltered by only clearing at UNI, Kentucky, Harvard, and reaching the Capital Cities Finals. Both members decided to end the failed experiment with ?English Only? and Feldman reunited with a more capable Samson running the ever-popular ?Gattica? affirmative. Inter-team relations were never better between the two, but Jonah, knowing his weaknesses walks away from Samson after the Wake Forest Tournament. ?I was keeping him back,? I overheard Feldman saying to Mancuso. Assistant coach Colin Kahl recounts the story a little differently, quoting Jonah as yelling, ?that ass smokes crack.? Funny, Colin, but we all know how much those two loved each other. Jonah leaves the activity to focus on a career in horticulture and daytime couch testing. Exhausted from all of his new activities, Jonah forgets to go to class? 1999-2000: JUNIOR YEAR Fearing that he would have to debate with Scannapieco again, Jonah disappeared from the activity for a year. Rumor has it that he lived in a basement with Kelly Steele. What happened to him in this dark prison is never known? He was not heard from until late 2000. We believe that Jonah spent most of the time attending night classes and training for the World Championship of Poker?or in East Lansing. 2000-2001: SENIOR YEAR The Africa topic is pretty lame until the KC Swing. JD Feldman makes his triumphant return to debate and daytime activity by rejoining the team and kicking ass in school. Mancuso, overwhelmed by the joy of coaching Jonah and new partner Matt Cannon, transfers to Catholic University to avoid dying from excitement. Matt Cannon soon quit to pursue his more personal more goal of becoming a life councilor for sexually curious women. Jonah, undeterred, agreed to debate with little-known Adriana Midence. Feeling that he was now the one being held back, he moved on to Shaun Van Horn. Team ?Fresh-Scent? debated its way into the NDT and received an honorary mention as the stinkiest team in debate. Unfortunately, David Strauss was triumphant in his solo effort in winning what should have been a ?team? award. 2001-2002: SENIOR YEAR ? AGAIN? The Native American?s topic give birth to Michigan O-Face. Actually, Jonah had been researching the Michigan O-Face on the Internet for years before the Indians topic, but that is another story. Attempting to lose some of the weight he had put on over the years, Jonah decided to start his quest by losing the plan to his 1AC. Inspired by this action, the team keeps debating without a plan and begins losing more things?including debates. Halfway through the year, Jonah decided to invest in the new ?stop the insanity? diet and partakes in a balanced diet of kritiks, couterplans, and disadvantages. He starts winning a lot of debates. And the DCA begins scoping him out for a possible spot on the countdown. Because Hernandez and Feldman were such good friends, Jason decided to ?pass? on Jonah until Aaron Kall could take over the countdown in Jonah?s final senior year. 2002-2003: SENIOR YEAR ? ?3RD TIMES A CHARM, FER SURE? While this year?s treaty topic was well received by the community, I am afraid that it was not Jonah?s primary interest of on-line research. In a cruel twist of fate, the college topic never addressed the pressing issue of explicit material on the Internet while J.D. Feldman was still among the ranks of the rhetorical solders. While much of his ?performative? exploits in the medium were never documented, John Oden can attest to his through handling of the topic in the Michigan debate office at 3:12am on a lonely winter?s night. Not only did Jonah deliver a moving 2NR, but he cried after he was done. If, by chance, Larry Flint ever sponsors a team for the prodebatetour.com, Jonah, I am sure, will be his man. (I hear that such an event might be held a Liberty University and judged by Jerry Faldwell.) Undeterred by the topic Jonah reunited with John and the two begin a final reign of terror?especially for MSU MS. Over the course of the year, Jonah would beat a lot of good teams, have his mom ?pimped out? by Sternhagen, and quit smoking. Now he?s on his way to Boston to join the ranks of another ?aged? debate entity?Harvard Debate. I know that I am thrilled that he is coming and can?t wait to have him mooch my couch once more. Great job at making it, Jonah and congratulations on the DCA. MAY 2003: POSTSCRIPT For all the individuals that I have offended over the course of this biography, please be informed that I do not subscribe to eDebate nor do I fear the Schizo Liberation Front. The DCA is supposed to be humorous ? so be assured, ?big booty? faction ? this is only directed at Feldman, and is not a social commentary in any way. Love, Phallus Jerkins _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From vrenegar Wed May 14 18:34:09 2003 From: vrenegar (Val Renegar) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:34:09 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] DoF lines Message-ID: <002501c31a71$523f1b80$3c1abf82@gltkv> Hello everyone- I am trying to compile some information about DoF positions. Can you tell me if the Director of Forensics (or director of debate) at your school has a tenure/tenure-track position, a lecturer/instructor position or term contract, or an administrative appointment? Or some other arrangement? Any information you have would be helpful. Thank you, Val -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/e96503f6/attachment.htm From let_the_american_empire_burn Wed May 14 20:10:16 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:10:16 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ussr collapse Message-ID: "Most sources agree Reagan beat the USSR--quit whining about it." :) who is 'most sources'? "The tense of 'gave up' is about the time the idiot writer of the preceding post was born." 82? ... i'm just asking if the USSR already decided (i'm guessing sometime in the 80s) to 'give up' (which was a phrase Korcok put in ALL-CAPS), then why would out-spending them have worked to bring about their financial collapse? i think two historical figures are much more responsible for the fall of the Soviet empire than Reagan ever was - bin Laden and Gorbie: the first dealt a fatal blow to Soviet military prestige, and the later ushered in an era of openess that began an acknowledgment of the oppression and atrocities of the Soviet past. so .... i ask, yet again, what exactly did Reagan *do*? i know he *said* a lot of pretty things to justify exploding 'defense' budgets, and i know his administration wasted a lot of money on failed 'star wars' programs and failed to seize the opportunity to cooperate on disarmament, and i do respect his reaching out to the eastern bloc countries (as wel as 'tear this wall down'), but this is a little like the good economy during the clinton years: presidents are always happy to take the credit for things which they really have very little to do with, and the knowledge industries are happy to pour out books which make such claims seem legit. "Consider Chomsky--OOOH! The Soviets not only had no intention of winning, but they never wanted to play." i think the first couple chapters of Chomsky's Deterring Democracy are quite soild - a definite janture from his typically mediocre political rants. what i think Chomsky demonstrates is that there was only one empire which had explicity extra-territorial aims and that 'evil empire', if you like, was the USA. outside of Afghanistan (which the Soviets apparently had to be dragged into, if you believe Carter's national security advisor), the Soviets sold arms globally, but had no worldwide plan for domination. on the contrary, throw a dart at a map of Central America and you've probably hit a country where the USA intervened militarily and probably going back for several decades. the Cold War proved that the Soviets were never the enemy the USA wanted them to be - thankifully for the military-industrial complex that Einsenhower warned us about, a little over a decade after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the USA has a new enemy, 'terrorism'. hope this one works out for you. "If all you can do in defense of weak arguments is contradict yourself, take your ball and go home." where's the contradiction? i was simply asking Korcok when he thinks the Soviets 'GAVE UP' and how is this consistent with the claim that Reaganite 'defense' spending drove the Soviet economy bankrupt? its not semantics either - if you give up, you don't try to compete in the out-spending game, and then you avoid bankrupty. the neo-cons have also failed to give credit to Gorbie or bin Laden, for reasons which should be obvious. .k _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gordonm+ Wed May 14 20:58:53 2003 From: gordonm+ (Gordon Mitchell) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:58:53 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Hartung's "Can of Whupass" Message-ID: <310179.3261938333@mitchell3.comm.pitt.edu> World Policy Institute analyst Bill Hartung was recently a guest on Fox television's "The O'Reilly Factor." The two Bills got in quite a heated exchange over Iraq policy, then O'Reilly tried some dirty tricks. This episode was already fascinating, but then Hartung added debate intrigue to the mix by referring to "opening up a big can of whupass" as a "technical debating term" in his letter of protest: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0318-11.htm Was it a debater out there who e-mailed Hartung with the whupass reference? Gordon * * * Gordon R. Mitchell Associate Professor of Communication / Director of Debate University of Pittsburgh CL 1117, 4200 Fifth Ave. Pittsburgh, PA 15260 Phone: (412) 624-8531 Fax: (412) 624-1878 http://www.pitt.edu/~gordonm/ From debatekorea Wed May 14 21:56:39 2003 From: debatekorea (Jason Jarvis) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:56:39 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] paging Maxwell Schnurer Message-ID: I'm sure he's diving in some dumpster for the new mayor of New Paltz's stationary, but hey Max, I need you to backchannel me, Jason L. Jarvis Visiting Professor Graduate School of Journalism and Communication Kyung Hee University 1 Hoeki-dong, Dongdaemun-ku Seoul 130-701, Korea home:82-2-957-2305 mobile: 82-019-381-2305 _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mmk_savant Thu May 15 01:21:18 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:21:18 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Neal and Sanchez Message-ID: Sanchez: your USSR arguments are even worse than the slop you normally dish out. the "gave up" evidence explains the USSRs economic collapse in the late 80s (i graciously provided the link to the essays you didn't bother to read). the USSR was a command economy and the author argues that it collapsed because the "dictator" (the communist party) lost their resolve. the leadership lost its resolve when their only remaining source of legitimation, the mighty Soviet military, was thumped hard by Reagan. and i DO provide the evidence that says Afghanistan played a part but that Star Wars was the pivotal Cold War defeat. oh and your nonsense about how Bin Laden deserves credit is crap: he was only a low-level mujahedin at the time, and as you have often pointed-out, the mujahedin would have done crap without the support of the Reagan administration. oh and you have yet to construct a credible account of why Gorbachev should get (lots of the) credit: i provide the EVIDENCE that his role was primarily as the chump whose mid-1980s economic policies failed miserably and who found reform religion only after that. and it was still Reagan's policies that forced the issue and tipped the balance in favor of reforms. so your turn to provide some EVIDENCE rather than just more of your self-serving bullshit assertions. Neal: how do you figure that the Reagan administration's military spending was ultimately unnecessary? surely not because of your crappy "the Soviets weren't imperialistic, expansionist or aggressive" claim. how does that argument square with Soviet invasions of Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan, for example? or with Soviet sponsorship of revolutions in Central America, Angola, etc etc? newsflash: whispering sweet nothings into Khruschev's ear didn't do anything except embolden the fuck. or is your particular theory that if the US had just surrendered that everything would have been hunky-dory? Reagan's policies ended one of the most hideous experiments in human governance: give credit where it's due. your ideological blinders are "overdetermining" your wisdom and perspective. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030514/31ac8733/attachment.html From cpwiii Thu May 15 02:47:49 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:47:49 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Neal and Sanchez Message-ID: <000601c31ab6$4958c3f0$9efd4cd8@cpwiii> Thanx pard--I was too busy to argue with them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/d42fdf93/attachment.htm From BelHomme Thu May 15 03:06:56 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:06:56 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] A SIMPLE DISCUSSION ON QUEER IR... IF YOU HAVE THE K READ THIS Message-ID: In my endevour to learn more about queer theory more now for personal knowledge than it was a month or even a week ago, i want to know... what literature does YOUR shell give you as a link story and how does that literature articulate a link _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/04720890/attachment.html From travisneal Thu May 15 07:36:33 2003 From: travisneal (Travis Neal) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:36:33 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ans Neal and Sanchez References: Message-ID: My ideological blinders would actually have me in agreement with you. It is obvious you do not know who I am. Rarely do I agree with Sanchez, usually I find myself in agreement wth you and Duane. Just ask my debaters, I could by myself bring credibility to Kenneth Waltz in this community. I just think our camp is wrong in this instance. Check out "Inside the Kremlin's Cold War" by Zubok and Pleshakov. They make a very convoncong argument that Stalin had abandoned the expansionistic mindset of the Lenin regime. The 1968 interventions were not seen as expansionistic because the Soviet Union was already rooted there and it was a move at preservation, not expansion. I will have to double check on the explanations given to central and South America, but I am fairly certain it goes like this. Even without major Soviet backing, groups were able to mount challenges to oppressive regimes under an ideology of Marxist. It is also troubling that you cling to these uprisings as proof given our nation's willingness to invent some of these stories (was Grenada also an example of Soviet expanion?) No, I do nto think we should have "surrendered." But rampant militarization at the expense of civil liberties and better uses for the moneys is problematic. The world and this nation woudl have been a better place without the reagan military plan. Yes, the regime ended because the Soviet state could no longer justify itself based upon the militry actions of itself or its enemy. But this was not done because the enemy became badder or bigger, but rather because the enemy became a non-enemy. How does military buildup translate to a weakening of the security dillemma? This arguemtn makes little sense. It was other things, some of it to Reagan's credit (like the increased desire to talk to the Soviets in summits) that caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. I have always been willign to give Reagan a lot of credit for the end of the Soviet Union, but not because of his hawkish budgets. Travis Neal U. North Texas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/b0b61793/attachment.htm From epmr Thu May 15 13:14:49 2003 From: epmr (Michael Roston the eminently practical) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:14:49 +0200 Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: <1053022489.3ec3d9195f8b9@www.omnimail.sm> http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/editorial/mess_with_the_bull_youll_get_the_horns.shtml -- Michael Roston -what was your name, anyway? "Multinational life is cheap Soldiers, workers, maggots meat Get on up, protest right And use collateral damage at a legitimate target" -Primal Scream ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attiva la tua mail gratuita con Omnimail all'indirizzo http://www.omnimail.sm Il servizio ? offerto da Intelcom San Marino S.p.a. http://www.intelcom.sm From privethedge Thu May 15 13:42:21 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident In-Reply-To: <1053022489.3ec3d9195f8b9@www.omnimail.sm> Message-ID: <20030515184221.51246.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com> Extremely well written, pointed, and telling about what is wrong, in my view, with a lot of our society (and I'm talking about liberals, conservatives, and anyone in between). It's a shame though that such a thing happened to such a fine school..or to any school for that matter...you' think the parents, at least, would have been more circumspect to realize that dumping fecal matter on a person, besides being disgusting, is, at the very least, a public health hazard of the first magnitude. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/8f797dd9/attachment.html From mardigras23 Thu May 15 13:55:18 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:55:18 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: Newsweek May 19, 2003 Nobody expects teenagers to act like savages, least of all girls from a fancy school that boasts superb test scores and championship debate teams. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From paulj567 Thu May 15 14:49:10 2003 From: paulj567 (Paul Johnson) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515194910.63125.qmail@web11208.mail.yahoo.com> What occurred at GBN was very troubling indeed. One can only imagine how differently things might have turned out had the wayward students only consulted the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. -Paul P.S. This is not meant to trivialize hazing. It is meant to trivialize consultation counterplans. --- Aaron Kall wrote: > Newsweek May 19, 2003 > > Nobody expects teenagers to act like savages, least > of all girls from a > fancy > school that boasts superb test scores and > championship debate teams. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > eDebate mailing list > eDebate at ndtceda.com > To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber > list, go here: > http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From ermo Thu May 15 15:29:20 2003 From: ermo (Eric Morris) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:29:20 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident References: <20030515194910.63125.qmail@web11208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c31b20$aac5d0a0$e9fbed81@ku.edu> Re: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incidentHad the consultation been binding, I suspect the incident would have been prevented completely. Think about it. Ermo P.S. This is not meant to trivialize hazing. It is meant to defend consultation counterplans. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Johnson To: edebate at ndtceda.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident What occurred at GBN was very troubling indeed. One can only imagine how differently things might have turned out had the wayward students only consulted the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. -Paul P.S. This is not meant to trivialize hazing. It is meant to trivialize consultation counterplans. --- Aaron Kall wrote: > Newsweek May 19, 2003 > > Nobody expects teenagers to act like savages, least > of all girls from a > fancy > school that boasts superb test scores and > championship debate teams. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > eDebate mailing list > eDebate at ndtceda.com > To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber > list, go here: > http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ eDebate mailing list eDebate at ndtceda.com To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/5dbcf142/attachment.htm From mardigras23 Thu May 15 15:44:09 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:44:09 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #9- Nate Gorelick Message-ID: Nate received 28 points- four fifth place, two fourth place, one third place, three second place, one first place vote Nate's Biography by Will Baker Garner's graduating so the incredibly unfunny director is forced into action. With huge props to Vik Keenan for her continuing saga of the Knights of the Kingdom of York fromn whom 70% of this text is taken, I've made some adjustments to her text for the DCA awards. Can't separate Ricky and Nate all that much (my god, they've lived together like forever) and so our story begins... There came new champions of great renown in the Kingdom of York in the Region of East, and whose feats would be legendary and who would exceed in triumphs all those who had preceeded them. The new Knights were Ricky-the-Texan and Nate-the-Snide. They had been squires of some distinction in their youth in regions to the south and west, and Prince William, Regent of the Kingdom, was pleased to have them in his service. The Snide One was swift of tongue though slight in stature. Yet they feared the Demons of Topicality and strove mightily to avoid its touch. With a shield of de-dev and a lance out of nuclearism, he ventured forth into the land of Kings--college that is, and with an unimpressive 3-3 record proceeded to march through the forces of truth and justice (lest I forget to mention Liberty) and capture his first and only jv title. And their struggle against the Demons of Topicality became a never-ending journey in fact, they could see no greater evil than being called by the diabolic word, "topical". Despite an early misstep with sexist language, Nate soon proved to be worthy of the title of Champions of the Kingdom. They slew almost every opponent of the Region of East with little effort, and soon practiced their skills on more far ranging opponents. In an early struggle with the Georgian Forces of Beckley and Liu, Nate amazingly managed to go for the only position that he wasn't winning in the debate as Empress Wade looked on with shock and awe. Perhaps, it was a sign that the argument was extratopicailty. Their losses were few, and often from underhanded means, and over time they were generally regarded as among the best in the world except by those known only as the Watchers of the Nefarious Demented Throwdown but we digress... After many victories, they had emblazoned their armor with the symbol of a bird carrying the scales of justice and were henceforth FalconJustice. The name provoked discord within the Order of the Violet as fellow Knights Jen-the-Evidence Nazi and Kristen-o-Kansas had claims to the crest themselves, but were thwarted in their overthrow attempts. The ambrosia of beer and nachos and a 9pm bedtime became a staple for the Snide One and the Texan. Many a night, did the Snide One continue his reading of fallen demi-gods from far-off lands named Zizek, Lacan and Shapiro. The Demons of T had not forced these great heroes into defeat and he would share their works to all that would listen. Yea, to the point of deep annoyance even. Their friends on the court Jarius of Grove, the lady Annie of the land of the Duck, and the Ace of Garen all provided sage wisdom as Nate moved from swift of tongue to fleet of mind. Yea, verily, there was much shock when the Texan and the Snide failed to know the current President of the US and lost an early crusade to the noble warriors from DC. After one generation as reigning champions of York and East, it was almost time for the close of the decorated careers of both gallant Knights, but not before their fiercest and most glorious battle ever. The warrior they called only the Goofed One even called to order the Kritiks of the Roundtable for a review of the Snide One under the "Ultimate Acts of Stupidity Clause". The deconstruction of the Roundtable as an exclusive, hegemonic device postponed their fate, luckily for the Snide and the Texan. This would have been the snide's one second appearance at the roundtable having been accused of causing many a judge to laugh themselves to death through his in-round wit. The call was sent out throughout the Country Embracing Devilish Anarchy for the bravest and most talented Knights of each Kingdom and Region to battle for supremacy within the world, as to establish the dominance of good or evil. The Kingdom of York was already highly regarded, as Prince William was soon to be named King of the Country Endeavoring a Decent Anarchy, but he assembled his soldiers for the fiercest battle they could imagine, and brought his most trusted advisors to carry forth to Towson and Beyond" Ricky-the-Texan and Nate-the-Snide were accompanied by fellow Knights Jen-the-Evidence Nazi and Kristen-o-Kansas, as well as the newer members of the Order-of-the-Violet: Dany-the-Good-of-Heart and Andy-o-Columbia. Trusted advisors, Sir Joe (the Inebriated, of Jack) and Lady Kathryn (the Underappreciated, of Seagram) were key in preparing the valiant warriors. And it was with their fierce preparation and loyalty that Rate and Nicky were able to vanquish all before them as they came to their final battle. It has been a glorious joust among the various legions, and The Boys, as they were often called, fought long and hard and well despite their advancing years in service to the Order. It seemed a difficult challenge would present itself before the final battle when the Knights of Hanover stood in the way of those who would advance to the final challenge. But Nate-the-Snide and Ricky-the-Texan conjured up the strength to defeat those that stood in their way, overcoming the evil of Hanover, which false mages had erroneously predicted were comparable in skill to the Champions of the East. It was with this victory that they secured their place in the final battle of Good vs.Evil. In an ironic twist, it seems the Champions of the East were to face the representatives of Northwest, an irony because Lord Joe both originally hailed from the region. The Knights of York considered all possible points of attack, and felt secure in their righteousness, as usual. Lord Joe even foresaw that in such an epic battle the supporters of each side must be counted, and he arranged for Jake-the-Skimmy-Slayer, the original Legend of York, to withdraw from his retirement and to observe the crowning of the new champions and to establish the solidarity of Good. Lady Kathryn, a contemporary of Jake-the-Skimmy-Slayer, was set to bear witness to the triumph of the Order of the Violet, as Lord Joe could not take the suspense. It was an epic struggle, close in its decision, and flow bled and blood flowed. In the epic battle Ricky-the-Texan and Nate-the-Snide stood for the principal of how the battle was fought was just as important as winning the battle. Their opponents tried a simple and direct attack upon the honor of the strategy, but in the end the swiftness of Nate?s attacks and the might of Ricky?s briefs buried their opponents and when the briefs cleared, the Knights of York were proclaimed Champions of the Country!!! There was much rejoicing in the Region of East, but none more so than in the Kingdom of York. Epic ballads were composed in their honor. It was a happy time in the land of York. Ricky's mom even called. Nate is super sweet. A scholar who still manages to look like he's 12. Some will say he used evidence like a drunkard uses a lampost (more for support than illumination) but they would be wrong. Who else could beat a Tse-Tse fly affirmative on nuclearism? One of the coolest lab leaders to ever work at Texas and at CITI and an amazing team leader as president, treasuer and sometimes resident freak (they are good boys, they are!!). Will B signing off. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dagii Thu May 15 18:16:50 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: <20030515231650.8448AB6E5@xmxpita.excite.com> What on earth possesed the hazees to go to a place where they were expected to be humiliated, tormented, and otherwise tortured with no legitimate reason to expect a benefit of any kind? I think the juniors got exactly what they deserved for being stupid. At some point, you need to give people what they ask for - and not only those it is socially acceptable to hang out to dry. Peace out ~Chad Henson We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From jackattack7 Thu May 15 19:20:31 2003 From: jackattack7 (jack stroube) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:20:31 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Gott mit Korcok Message-ID: http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/herman/herman3.html _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jasonlrussell Thu May 15 21:00:22 2003 From: jasonlrussell (jason russell) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: <20030516020022.46A52B6F6@xmxpita.excite.com> Once again Duane grasps the truly important issues at hand: the public health consequences of having poop on your head. Jason _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From mmk_savant Thu May 15 21:26:44 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:26:44 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Jack and Doug Message-ID: good argument. and sane, too. really. the US and its citizens are Nazis because we liberated Iraq. Baghdad Jack has found his soulmate. he is smitten, all giggling and blushing because of Douglas Herman, whose qualifications are listed (by himself) as: "freelance journalist, former USAF veteran and current Alaska fisherman is working on a book to be published by Viking." and as "Alaska fisherman, freelance writer and amateur historian, served in the Air Force during the Viet Nam era. He now resides in Coral Springs." alas for Assjack, his love will never be requited. this is a picture of that total hottie Alaskan fisherman with big big political at-tit-tude, Doug. Jack instantly fell for those dreamy, dreamy, eyes and poofy hair. yes, this is a picture of Doug from ( http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/herman/herman2.html ) and this is a picture of Jack Stroube that i got from : ( http://www.bloggerheads.com/can_weblogs/mustard_man.asp ) stunningly cute as boy-toy Herman may be, he is dumb-as-dirt, Stroube's unrequited lust a pathetic mockery even of Assjack. in this one, for example, Fisherman Doug explained that the battle for Baghdad would kill tens of thousands of civilians, etc etc: ( http://www.counterpunch.org/herman03202003.html ). the ONE thing that Fisher Doug and Baghdad Jack have in common is that they are both ASSHATS. "asshats?!?! what the hell are you saying now, Korcok?" glad you asked. here, from ( http://www.confusednation.com/asshat/ ) "ass?hat n. slang 1. A thoroughly contemptible, detestable person. 2. Tight fitting underwear [sny: asshole, asshead, assclown, asswad, asshot, assface, prick, faggot, whitey tighties] Part Three: Why Use Asshat? Quite frankly, there is no better insult in the world than the word asshat. Think about it. Scenerio 1: You are once again late for work, and the boss decides to chew you out about it. So he finishes his ten minute speech about how you should be prompt every day. Under your breath, you mumble the word 'asshat'. He will look at you puzzled (if the old man even heard you) and ask you what you just said. "Asset," you will reply. "That's a great asset to possess." You just made fun of the guy, and didn't get fired! Asshat to the rescue! Scenerio 2: You are playing a rousing game of Counter-Strike and some hacker comes in to ruin the fun. Luckily, everyone in the room knows the secret word to repel cheaters. That's right! If you and your fellow teammate continue to call the little prick an 'asshat', he will eventually get confused and leave. This strategy will also work at parties, bar mitzfas, and other socal outings. Asshat is new! Asshat is hip! Asshat is now! We all strive to create a new word for a generation, and this is it, folks! Asshat is something that everyone can come together and celebrate! " speaking of Asshats, this is Krempasky's discussion about Scott Ritter, another asshat that equivocates between Nazi Germany and the United States. here: ( http://www.krempasky.com/blog/archives/001210.html ). and here is a discussion of asshat John Pilger's equivalent equivocation: ( http://www.nicedoggie.net/archives/001190.html ). but ALAS, being Asshats just won't be enough for Doug to become interested in Jack. poor Baghdad Jack. pity the asshat. thanks for reading, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/be1d1b01/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 42825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/be1d1b01/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 33862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030515/be1d1b01/attachment-0001.obj From mardigras23 Thu May 15 23:03:08 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:03:08 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #8- Josh Lynn Message-ID: Josh received 29 points- two fifth place, 3 fourth place, one third place, two second place, and two first place votes Josh Lynn, AKA the chosen one, AKA golden boy by Scott Phillips Most of these DCA bios seem to start of with a slew of insults and then move on to sentimental touchy-feely crap, but seeing as how if I had to describe josh some of the first adjectives I would use are ?touchy feely? way to touchy feely? I mean, I see where those hands go? there aint no sink in here?? ill start there. Don?t ever fucking question that In many ways josh is how I dream of being. This guys GPA is like 3.938493849384938 and yet I think guest speakers go to his classes more than he does. Sometimes he is just to smart, and it scares me, and then I don?t want to be like him, but other than that its cool. Everybody loves this guy. Often times ill see josh on campus and hell come up and say hello and expect me to walk with him, not a chance. He knows everyone, and he has to stop and talk and schmooze with everyone. I once left a building on campus with josh, left him while he was talking to some girl so far out of his league it brought tears to my eye, went to the debate office, wrote an affirmative, had Shannon throw it away, re-wrote it and I still had time to take a nap before josh made it to the building due to his conversational delays. And he talks to girls easily. Anyone who can put up with me for a year deserves some type of medal, like the silver-I debated with a complete asshole and didn?t kill myself or him despite being constantly treated like garbage-star. When I got to emory he immediately was nice to me. He and adam kept inviting me out to hang with them, and I guess like listen to 80?s music, I didn?t quite understand what they were saying but they kept referencing that Devo song I think. Point being:This guy is sweet, and no matter how much I argue with you about nothing remember I love you man, you?re the only partner ive ever had were ive wanted to win the flip so we could be aff, don?t ever fucking question that. So without much futher ado, lets get it on. What you are about to read is true, except for the parts I made up to make it more interesting The introduction- you better recognize me like I look familiar The first time I met one JBL was at the Dartmouth debate institute. He judged me, we lost, but he was totally complimentary, kept saying I was sweet and what not. The only reason I mention this is because his blatant flattery may or may not have influenced my first perception of josh: I thought he was a badass. No seriously, badass. I don?t know what it was, he had this air, something about him. He seemed more like one of the cool kids who made fun of debaters than a debater. Now anyone who has seen me interact with josh recently knows that this image I had of him quickly wore off? but why? When I first walked into the emory debate office there was a meeting of first years and a sort of meet the debate team type happening. When this was over Josh asked if any of the first years wanted to stay and help do work. Being the incredibly Dedicated, Organized, Resourceful, Knowledgable individual that I was I of course volunteered. 10 minutes later josh had me photocopying native American census reports? for several hours? the badass image was quickly cracking. One thing I feel the need to mention is that more than anything (other than debate) josh and I have found a connection in the game of poker. One of my first nights at Emory Josh invited me to loose much money to Lance Cook in a game of cards. When I was down and out josh was there to loan me money? at a low rate of interest? compounded bi-weekly? he even explained to me what it meant when he said if I didn?t pay the interest it got tacked on to the principal. He was really good with numbers, like it was genetic or something. Of all the debate work I did that year I think the only thing josh and Adam ever used was ASPEC(or federal government ontology if jairus is judging) and it is no coincidence I think that it was their most successful negative strategy I asked him to come to the dark side, he made a choice and said- When josh asked me to debate with him I was ecstatic, I was thinking along the lines of Foster and Paul or lupo and horowitz. Ill be the incredibly fast kid who takes care of the aff and does the dirty work, and he can be the slow persuasive guy who puts it all together. Then he did something that to this day makes me hate him. He said ?and I think you should be the 2N, and if possible we should find a way for you to give all the speeches?. Now some of you may or may not have noticed from my performances at the policy RR and CEDA nationals, I am not a fan of anything involving a 2. when he said 2N I was more thinking of like? a team? that is like.. good on the aff but like? you know loses allot of neg debates? A year before that I would have been like ?hell yea im doing the 2N, because I rule and you drool?. But a year in college debate had done what many had thought not possible, made me humble?humbler? kinda? Anywhoo needless to say I was a bit apprehensive at best. Josh took a big risk debating with me, and I appreciate that. One thing about debating with josh, why cant you people tell us apart? Even people on our own team get us confused, what is up with that? We are clearly different people. I mean sure we are both big guys, we both may or may not be balding, we may booth say rum instead of room, Josh may copy the way I dress, we don?t really like to shave, and we may both be incredibly good looking but come on people!! Ill slice and dice you like a ginsu- anything you say can and will be used against you In debates josh and I are like a well oiled, top of the line imported sports car?.that is being driven by kacey wolmer. We have everything needed to achieve greatness- but sometimes it doesn?t quite get used effectively. If josh and my debate strategy, any time this word is used to refer to us it is clearly being used loosely, had to be broken down I would say this: he is the brain, and I am the brawn. A typical conversation between us during a CTBT 1AC is as follows ?hey scott, you didn?t write ban modernization into the CP text? ?yea I know? ?why?? ?cause im not a {explitive deleted}, you stupid {explitive deleted}? ?ok, well I just think its easier to CP it out than have to deal with it? seeing my hard ass ways have failed I go flip mode and change strategies ? but josh!!! Dave wrote all these blocks and I just have to read them and not think!!!!!? ?ok dude whatever? (time elapsed) ?next of case the counterplan: the USFG should ban modernization of?? every file I write, takes 25 to life?. Josh is a thorough researcher? emphasis on thorough. Josh?s research process is basically to get a topic, checkout everybook in the library that has a call number beginning with the same digit, read them over the course of a week, and then stay up all night before the tournament doing lexis work. Now needless to say this has its ups and downs. Ups- who the hell would have thought you could find a card that says Indian casino gaming causes boom bust cycles and guarantee a recession every 8-10 years causing a world war, in one card? Not i. Downs- books don?t contain conflict uniqueness, you get fined when josh checks them out on your car, he uses police chalk to underline making reading them impossible?. josh also gets frustrated when others don?t use this strategy (nuclear strategy file?). Josh and I have differing views on evidence, he will cut any card no matter how bad from a source that has qualifications, and I will cut a good card from any source (letter to the editor, personal webpage, discussion board, dr. sally weidel?) The AFF-I live my life like the captain of a sinking ship Josh was without a doubt the reluctant captain of the aff ship. Before rounds he would frequently hit me with a barrage of questions like what advantages, what do you think the plan should say, how do we stop wake ES from running ispec, do my clothes match? And I would frustrate the hell out of him by saying ?Dude, its your ship just make a decision. And no your wearing a black belt with brown shoes and basketball shorts? to which he would reply with something like ?you are so much more {expletive deleted} than Goldstein?. What he never really figured out was in Josh I trusted.( ok I OCCASSIONALY made suggestions during the 2AC but that was it?. Who doesn?t permute a CP text that takes 2 minutes to read I mean who does that?) besides if Josh and I ever got into a real argument about the aff I simply needed to say something like ?calm down, it will be ok ? or ?hey we are all friends here? and if that didn?t work ?remember T the US is brazil ?? and the crises would be averted. A little NDT tidbit- before the NDT josh basically worked exclusively on new SORT affs, yes we waited until the sort was ratified to begin researching it. The main push of this was to run an aff that got rid of some subs so josh could relive his high school glory days of sub bumping. A direct quote ?god damn I cant wait to beat Raja on sub bumping again?. When brought in for questioning one R. need to go to the bathroom said ?Sub Bumping? What the {expletive deleted}? That {expletive deleted} beat us on the constitution is sexist, I mean what kind of {expletive deleted} is that {expletive deleted}?. I think if yoda saw josh debate on the aff he would probably say something along the lines of ?the force is strong with this one?, then look at me and say ?but the darkside clouds all?? I honestly don?t know how we pulled of some of the shit we did. Some people call feats such as these ?jedi mind tricks?, personally I don?t think industrial light and magic could make what we did seem possible. Direct quotes from the josh in debates we won include ?Korea disad- this was only 5 cards in the 1NC- if they develop it more we?ll answer it? ?They say debate is bad- Turn interpretive realism?? ?counter interpretation or means or? ?Josh that?s a double turn? ?it is?? ?you said fusion now, CTBT kills Fusion, fusion good? ?ahhh touch?, scratch one of those 2 turns? ?Turn: Russian nationalism?? not really a quote, but josh once neutralized a huge china disad by reading the neutron bomb add on, skipping the impact and reading the card on the next page I had labeled ?answer to neutron bomb add on? and a little 2AR magic ?anyone in this room could be a nazi- look at that kid there? ?poor people don?t know how to spend their money, their just gonna buy food? and from cross x ?that?s right- Israel has no nuclear weapons cause the jews are too cheap? ?oh really? Cause I didn?t feel like I was committing genocide during the 2AC? ?what are you stupid?? And who can forget such classics as ?whats the status of your kritik alternative? ?unconditional? ?so you have to go for it? ?yes? ?are you sure its not conditional? ?yes? {expletive deleted}?. ??? And in a debate I wasn?t there to see but have on tape ?I DARE you to go for T the US is brazil? The negative- Flip Mode, Flip mode is the greatest I honestly don?t understand allot of our negative success, people never seemed to figure out that when I gave a stand up 2NC where I dropped have off what they said and answered the other half the wrong way that I was planning on going for what josh was taking in the 1NR. Having debated with the blazing asian didi-well kick your ass on the status-kuo the year before my expectations for josh?s 1NC?s were a bit unreasonable at the beginning of the year. But we learned valuable lessons at GSU and the KY RR about spotting people advantages in the 1NC to fit in a bunch of bad disads, and by mid year we had found our groove: one off and the case (2 off if it was the CTBT, can I get a hell yea for catch 22, don?t act like you think its stupid your teams all stole it). And just when we thought it was safe one D-heidt would come out with a new disad with even longer cards and make our 1NC even smaller. Is there a worse feeling being the 2N then hearing the 2AC put the disad you are planning on going for at the bottom of the 2AC order, then having them get there and their partner yell out ?7??(perhaps this is second to hearing the 2AC say ?this doesn?t assume the way we?ve contextualized our zizek claim within our derrida evidence). Towards the end of the year though the little engine that could turned out to be a bullet train. In the finals of northwester josh gave probably the best 1NC of anyone I?ve ever debated with, 7 off case (ok so ASPEC and ISPEC were on 1 page) and a slew of answers to the case, I almost shed a tear when the disad I wanted to go for was 2nd in the 2AC order, giving me time to prep, and only had 6 responses on it. ( on a sidenote the round before the confidence disad was the last thing in the 2AC and had like a ridiculous 25 answers, and that was ben Thorpe josh, BEN THORPE!, it turns out you couldn?t spread Thorpe after all..) In closing Josh, debating with you was awesome, and I?m sure you will have unlimited success on your future? where you want to be a drug addicted history teacher? good luck with that ;-) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Fri May 16 06:01:49 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:01:49 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: Chad Henson asks: "What on earth possesed the hazees to go to a place where they were expected to be humiliated, tormented, and otherwise tortured with no legitimate reason to expect a benefit of any kind?" ... i too have been asking why people debate in college. :) .k P.S... is this ageist prejudice typical of college teachers today? : "High-school kids do stupid things: yes. They drink beer: yes. They bully and ostracize others: yes. ... I?m aware of all of this, and I accept it." (John Warner) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From privethedge Fri May 16 07:27:45 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 05:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident In-Reply-To: <20030516020022.46A52B6F6@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: <20030516122745.48913.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I said at the "very least." Sorry, I thought that adults, even in the rarified atmosphere that the high school is located in were capable of being adults, and realize that you, as an adult, should not be obtaining fecal matter and other material for your daughter to place on another person's head. I do of course realize the greater lessons here, perhaps too well. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030516/ac1fd062/attachment.htm From ssakso1 Fri May 16 09:23:05 2003 From: ssakso1 (Sergejs Saksonovs) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:23:05 +0300 Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident Message-ID: <001501c31bb6$aadca2d0$27f7140a@SS> >>>What on earth possesed the hazees to go to a place where they were expected to be humiliated, tormented, and otherwise tortured with no legitimate reason to expect a benefit of any kind? The supposed benefit of undergoing hazing procedure is acceptance in some form of the community. The hazees wanted to become equal with the hazers and I suspect that a good deal of them looked forward to the opportunity of themselves doing the same thing to the next generation. Thus, the hazees acted with certain rationality, which you treasure so much. The problem of everybody involved was that this rationality was rooted in a wrong system of reference. Best wishes, S. From jmarty Fri May 16 09:28:39 2003 From: jmarty (Jillian A. Marty) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:28:39 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] steve woods please respond Message-ID: <1053095319.3ec4f5973d493@webmail.uvm.edu> hey steve, please backchannel i gotta ask u a question Jillian -- From michelinmassey Fri May 16 09:31:25 2003 From: michelinmassey (Michelin C. Massey) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Interesting commentary on GBN hazing incident In-Reply-To: <001501c31bb6$aadca2d0$27f7140a@SS> Message-ID: <20030516143125.20486.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> to add onto sergejs' comment, all of the news reports indicated that the game was a tradition for many years. supposedly, the school knew about it but chalked it up to "girls having fun." things went awry this year, though i don't know if it diminishes the value of what many of the young female people *perceived* was going to be the outcome -- a fun and exciting time to gain initiation into the sr. class of 2004. michelin massey. --- Sergejs Saksonovs wrote: > >>>What on earth possesed the hazees to go to a > place where they were > expected to be humiliated, tormented, and otherwise > tortured with no > legitimate reason to expect a benefit of any kind? > > The supposed benefit of undergoing hazing procedure > is acceptance in some > form of the community. The hazees wanted to become > equal with the hazers and > I suspect that a good deal of them looked forward to > the opportunity of > themselves doing the same thing to the next > generation. Thus, the hazees > acted with certain rationality, which you treasure > so much. > The problem of everybody involved was that this > rationality was rooted in a > wrong system of reference. > > Best wishes, > S. > > > > _______________________________________________ > eDebate mailing list > eDebate at ndtceda.com > To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber > list, go here: > http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From dagii Fri May 16 13:36:24 2003 From: dagii (Chad Henson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] Re: Motives and Rationality in GBN Hazing Message-ID: <20030516183624.49ACB1E431@xmxpita.excite.com> Hey Sergeis. Nice to see you, but I'm worried that my view of rationality is not quite understood if you believe that community acceptance is what I would consider a serious value worth pursuing. "The supposed benefit of undergoing hazing procedure is acceptance in some form of the community." Which I would argue means there is something so wrong with the community that nobody should want to be a part of it. Hazing in some forms can be constructive. Smearing shit on a student is not. "The hazees wanted to become equal with the hazers..." I never saw evidence that the seniors underwent this sort of activity when they were juniors. But even if they did, showing up sent a message of inferiority, not equality. If you were someone's equal, you would stand up for yourself and stop it. "and I suspect that a good deal of them looked forward to the opportunity of themselves doing the same thing to the next generation." I almost hope this was the motive. Sadism is far more innocent than sniveling desire to "belong" in a group of your own torturers. Nevertheless, I really find it difficult to believe that an entire class at a high school could simultaneously become sadists after leading otherwise "normal" lives. "Thus, the hazees acted with certain rationality, which you treasure so much." What is rational about this? Your reasons include 2 forms of altruism and sadism. That's what I call immoral and irrational. "The problem of everybody involved was that this rationality was rooted in a wrong system of reference." Meaning there was a failure to rationally determine the correct frame of reference. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From privethedge Fri May 16 14:11:33 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Re: Motives and Rationality in GBN Hazing In-Reply-To: <20030516183624.49ACB1E431@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: <20030516191133.27193.qmail@web10007.mail.yahoo.com> The night the story broke there was a reporter for CNN interviewing two GBN students, right across the street from the high school. The students said that the girls, the Juniors, did it partially because they knew they would get to do it to others when they were Seniors - apparently this "ritual" had long standing in the GBN community. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030516/dfc942c3/attachment.html From dig Fri May 16 16:47:27 2003 From: dig (Andy Ellis) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:47:27 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] St Louis Coptalk Message-ID: <200305162147.h4GLlQc01265@www.cross-x.com> http://members3.boardhost.com/stlcoptalk/index.html?1052618641 -- Debate Information Group http://dig.ndtceda.com/ From mardigras23 Fri May 16 23:06:27 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 04:06:27 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #7- Andrew Leong Message-ID: Andrew received 37 points- two fifth place, six fourth place, two third place, three second place, and one first place vote. The Grey Invasion OR Andrew Leong's DCA Bio by Ben Thorpe and John Turner (title thanks to Northwestern GM) Brian Smith's first day working in the debate office he watched Turner offer to put a Pop Tart in the toaster for Andrew. Turner returned a few minutes later, sat down next to Andrew and said, "Andrew, your Pop Tart is ready." He repeated this phrase three or four times after brief pauses. Brian, never less than self-assured even in new environments, condescendingly informed John, "I think Andrew knows his Pop Tart is ready." Five minutes later (no exaggeration) Andrew looked up and said, "Did someone say something?" The secret of Andrew's success in debate was applying this model of "communication" to prep when faced with the anxious suggestions of his partner regarding the upcoming 2NR after a 2NC comprised of poetry, the imitation of shitting, and what not. "Andrew." Silence. "Andrew." Silence. "Andrew!" More Silence. It's not that he doesn't hear you, it's just that he isn't listening. And why should he? Andrew splits his time in Hanover fairly evenly between a rigorous knitting routine and contemplating questions of existence on a scale few imagine. We sat in on Andrew's thesis presentation recently and quickly learned we know nothing about nothing. Not that these remarks are intended to give Andrew a big head. On a related note, Andrew was at his most nervous when Sarah Holbrooke, Rashad Evans, and Hester came close to revealing the true extent of the threat posed by he and his large-headed Grey alien brethren. I mean, it's like an orange on a toothpick. The best part of this is that Sarah Holbrooke confirmed that a block had been written to take care of the "Andrew is an alien and will mindscan you" argument that leapt to LT's collective conscious at the Coast last year. While the West Georgia squad seems to have been onto Andrew the whole time, most of the community merely envisioned Andrew answering the question oft posed by Turner (Pinky): "What are we gonna do tonight, Brain?" (As he remarked one late night in the debate office, "Goddamn Globe DA fuckers stole our motif" [Rayburn first used that at the Natives NDT]) In most cases, the answer was not to take over the world but to feign an attempt at coverage. Debating with a 2AC as slow as Turner brings some liabilities. Fortunately, Andrew could correct for the 2AC's inability to read any cards by blazing through 9, 11, and 14 card 1AC's over the past two years. Rumor has it Repko heard the ICWA 1AC and couldn't figure out how Dramatic Interp was an offensive reason to vote aff; however, MSU had the best E.M. Forster and Passage to India bad cards on the whole circuit by the end of the year (all from www.fuckthemagnetosphere.com mind you?thanks to "Face" Feldman). One thing many people do know about Andrew is that the kid can rack up the points. Finding another debater to receive a 30 from both Bill Shanahan and Ross Smith (let alone had them on a panel) would probably require digging though some very very old archives. As would finding someone to have participated in a debate without time limits. Ken Strange claims to have invented (the need for) prep time, but it was Andrew who probably introduced non-time?in the "strategy session" for round 7 at West Georgia on the Natives topic Andrew and Turner decided to read a Sci-Fi short story about an alternate universe wherein Maoist elements in the Western United States helped secure China's conquest of the United States by 1960. Having failed to mention that Andrew was going to act out the dialogue of the story rather than read it, Turner was a bit worried when the timer reached 8:30 used and he had only told half the story. Fortunately, Joe and Jason were kind enough to overlook such a trivial matter as timing (I mean, what was LT going to do, spread them out?), and after the 18min 1NC ended Andrew sat down and remarked that it had felt, "a little long." In that same debate, Andrew revealed his life-long obsession with James Dean. Regailing the audience with a detailed analysis of Rebel Without a Cause, Andrew gave probably the best untimed 1NR Without a Point ever. While James Dean seems like a relatively safe bet for his sex appeal, the Dartmouth debate team learned in an infamous game of Cliff/Boot that faced with the three Garens, Andrew would make the interesting choice of sleeping with Ace because of his "cute ponytail [mmmman]" Andrew's knowledge of competition is beyond comparison. How many other people would have realized that "doing no-thing" didn't compete with the Fort's "affirming the no-thing" but that "not doing" did. Of course, this sophisticated knowledge didn't prevent the occasional mistake, as when Omri and Koehle managed to get Nicole and Andrew to strike most of their 2NC after "proving" in CX that their CP didn't textually compete. Elliot Tarloff shared a few high school Leong stories with us after the past two years, but more importantly, he also let us in on the nickname that he gave him at CPS, "Bong Dong Leong." The Dartmouth squad added, "Jos? Cuervo" to the list of nicknames after a long Dartmouth Round Robin party. At least, it was a long night for some present (If you'll remember from DCA bios two years ago, this was the night Shalmon passed out and Kirk stole his glasses to do impressions?way to go Dan) but Andrew snuggled up on the futon with a bottle of Cuervo that he had emptied (or at least taken two shots from). We think Repko's NDT judging philosophy was an attempt to nickname Andrew, "fucking Gulliver," but we're still trying to account for the fact that Gulliver is bigger than the Lilliputians. Perhaps Greenstein's "Shorty" (that short little Asian kid companion to Indiana Jones straight out of a film studies article on Orientalism) and "Dr. Jones" was a more appropriate combination. Always known for his love of evidence and immaculate attention to filing, it was Andrew who first developed the "File o' Fun" and "Book of Names" to store the short stories and 9 cards that LT read in every debate under author name (you can bet that "calculability zero point of holocaust" was one of them). Many of you may have heard these cards in those great Berger 2 card K shells (also, filed by author name under the heading, "Andrew is Sweet.") Although Andrew is definitely the first and only person to tell Turner to "SLOW DOWN" during a 1NR, it probably didn't matter given his 2NR in that particular NDT debate included not one 1NR argument. The inclusion of Queer Theory in debate is another laudable first, though probably not in its original incarnation in that monster known as "Brave New World," the first five minutes of which were an excerpt from Huxley that no one quite figured out how to flow. A quick hint for those of you debating in front of Andrew next year: another strategic first he tried against Goof was to spend the first two minutes of a 1AR turning their Star Trek and Matrix analogies?make them pay for their offhand 2NC jokes even if it means dropping just a couple of the 15 2NC link arguments (Another hint: Arnett loves that approach). Though Thorpe and I wrote most of this together, I want to make a personal note here: to borrow Ace terminology, debating with Andrew has been "the motherfucking Tuss" (no, we don't know what Ace means either, but it?s catchy). If those 1NR's after Andrew's poems, recounted dreams, and short stories where not so great it's because I loved listening to the 2NC. Andrew always debated with the intention of making the activity more welcoming and more interesting. Thank you for two excellent years of debate and friendship. ?John _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From nselegzi Sat May 17 10:49:42 2003 From: nselegzi (Noel Selegzi) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:49:42 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] FW: [debate-l] New Topics on Debatabase Message-ID: <1CBED6247AC65445BF49BFDD3CC5DBC602F2F516@osinyexch.soros.org> From: Trevor Sather [mailto:trevor at squareeye.com] Hello We've just added 14 new topics to the IDEA Debatabase (www.debatabase.org). They are: Limits on Debate US Electoral College System Two-Term Limits for US Presidents People Power Double Jeopardy Rule Home Schooling Emergency Contraception Organ Donors, Opt-Out By Date Rape Beauty Contests Feminism Polygamy Kashmir African Union Thanks to Tom Hamilton, Alex Deane, Ranjan Agarwal, Peter English and Niall Kennedy for these ones. Could you write a topic or two and keep the Debatabase as the world's most useful debate resource? We offer modest payment and worldwide fame. E-mail the Editor, Alastair Endersby, at alastair at squareeye.com and he'll tell you what's required. You can also now purchase "Debatabase: The Book" from IDEA Press -- see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970213085/interntionaldeba/002-5 5860 97-2355255 Thanks Trevor _________________________ Trevor Sather Creative Director Square Eye Ltd 22-24 Monmouth Rd, London, W2 4UT, UK (t) +44 (0) 20 7243 8844 (f) +44 (0) 20 7243 8833 (e) trevor at squareeye.com (w) www.SquareEye.com From majeredb8 Sat May 17 14:05:44 2003 From: majeredb8 (Steve Sawyer) Date: 17 May 2003 14:05:44 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] POW rescue just wagging the dog? Message-ID: <1053198344.279.1.camel@sd2.mailbank.com> I'm surprised that nobody else was over it... but this story in the Tribune just seemed too interesting to not post. Cox News Service LONDON -- The daring rescue of Jessica Lynch, a 19-year-old private who lay trapped behind enemy lines in Iraq, was one of the most inspiring stories to emerge from the war in Iraq. U.S. Special Forces braved enemy fire to rescue an American who had been badly wounded and was being maltreated. Or so the story goes, according to American officials. A BBC broadcast Sunday will challenge that version of events, charging that some of what American officials fed news reporters was false. Lynch received no battle wounds and her rescuers endured no enemy fire, according to the TV report. Instead, the BBC show "Correspondents" will allege that the so-called daring rescue was essentially a Hollywood-style stunt designed to buck up sagging American support. http://www.sltrib.com/2003/May/05172003/nation_w/57741.asp From privethedge Sat May 17 17:34:21 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] POW rescue just wagging the dog? In-Reply-To: <1053198344.279.1.camel@sd2.mailbank.com> Message-ID: <20030517223421.75741.qmail@web10007.mail.yahoo.com> What's so remarkable abou this? It was reported, when Lynch was examined in Germany, that she was neither shot nor stabbed. However, the other injuries (head, leg, etc) seem to be real. As for the rescue, I don't remember any reports talking about gunfire on the break out..I do remember several saying it was a fast operation, sort of a smash and grab. As for Iraqi claims of good treatment? Please, that would be like saying that Jason Blair was an honest, forthright, and scrupulous journalist. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030517/d11a9aa4/attachment.htm From nozikn74 Sat May 17 21:07:16 2003 From: nozikn74 (Sydney Howard) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:07:16 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Request for Evidence Message-ID: I have a small request for anyone who can help me. I am writing a paper for one of my classes and I am looking for some specific authors who discuss the connection between nature and women. I believe that two years ago on the Indians topic I heard this argument run against us by ASU...something to the effect of the romancing of nature and needing to "save" it being a corollary to the mentality of "saving" women? If anyone knows specifically of these authors or can turn me in the right direction, I'd greatly appreciate it. Just backchannel me! Thanks again -- Sydney CSU, Bakersfield sydney a. howard ------------------------------------- "government is the great fiction through which everybody attempts to live at the expense of everybody else." -frederic bastiat _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mardigras23 Sat May 17 23:38:29 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 04:38:29 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #6- Greta Stahl Message-ID: Greta received 37 points- three fifth place, six fourth place, four third place, no second place, and two first place votes. Greta won the tiebreaker for 6th place because of the two first place votes she received compared to Andew's one first place vote. GRETA STAHL: FUTURE MRS. GAREN? By Alicia Hunt with help from Charles Olney, and lots of filthy, unusable (but funny) suggestions from David Strauss BIRTH: Born to parents Gunnel and Ulf. Still Swedish, which is always funny... SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL: 1997-2000, R.I.P. SUNNYDALE Sunnydale Senior High School didn't know what they were in store for when they got Greta Stahl for tenth grade. She came and left with a bang in the third season after graduation. Attracted to the hot debate coach, Greta decided to try debate at Sunnydale. (He was a rock star - visit www.thefoolishheads.com for more info.) She knew she was up to the challenge. She quickly discovered that she also liked the fact that all the boys were now talking to her, asking for such things as "cite requests," or "to borrow a pen." Even in high school, Aaron Kall was sending her upwards of five requests a day. Like the polite and enthusiastic debater she is, Greta responded then, too... unlike others in the community. At least now that he is affected by the SARS outbreak at Berkeley, Dan Shalmon has an excuse for not responding to those requests... Let me also say, that everyone here at MSU is pulling for you, Dan... (to answer their cite requests!) But, I digress. Little did Greta know that at the Wake Forest camp, boys would request more than cites. At Wake, Greta discovered her debate potential -- under the tutelage of Andy Geppert and Andy Ryan. While Greta diligently cut cards, her debate partner attempted to look up Andy Ryan's "hot little umbros." Repulsed, Greta focused on getting better at debate. That is, until she met Joe Koehele. Shy and still too young to work what her Swedish genes gave her to its full potential, Greta let Joe pursue her. Alas, summer lovin' didn't quite have her a blast (it happened so fast) -- but it still gave her something to think about besides the Andys. Greta took what she learned and racked up some wins that should still make her smile; she beat a young Calum Matheson/David Strauss East Lansing team on the T "policy is not a program" arg. She worked hard in debate and at school to prepare her for what she thought would be a debate career at Northwestern - until they rejected her. (I guess your dad has to be Michael Morales, '80s pop star to get into that place?) That must be why, after her third season there, after giving the commencement address, Mayor Richard Wilkins, III, (note that he is actually the third, unlike Thad who is a fake fifth) decided that Sunnydale was no place without Greta, and blew up the school. (*This is apparently an extended Buffy reference. Don?t worry, I don?t get it either, all I know is that when she isn?t cutting cards or checking to see if Strauss has been posted to "amihotornot.com," Greta is watching Buffy.) COLLEGE: NO FROM NORTHWESTERN = MSU WILL PAY ME TO GO THERE, SO NOW I'M A SPARTAN! Greta has done a lot of interesting things (in and outside of rounds), most of which I am sure the debate community is totally aware of. (If you are not, there could be pictures... Google that up, Swedes are totally hot.) I could re-hash those, but I don't know much about her college debate years, so instead I would like to explore Greta?s college years in through her meeting the various Garens -- which I have heard about extensively. FROSH: Picture it, Greta spies a dark stranger across the crowded room at Kentucky. "Umm, Strauss, I know we talked about more partner love, but who is that hottie over there?" Greta had just encountered the eldest Garen, Kiva, and did he ever pick her up after round 8 of Kentucky. It was way more magical than love in the bathroom of the Wake Forest Debate Camp, where one might ask Joe Koehele about how he "lost his hat..."? It was a big win for Greta, but the streak of "partner love" ended for SS - there was no more getting lucky in Kentucky for Strauss, aka young Dallas... SOPHOMORE: Greta meets her soul mate, the clown prince of Garens: Goof. She also loses to him repeatedly this year. At each tournament she debates him, he turns her case. She just can?t seem to recover from the case turning fast enough to give a good enough 2AR to win. She was too mesmerized by his huge head to be able to get anything past him. After this year, though, she managed to resist letting Goof turn her case - and never loses to him again. JUNIOR: "WILL! STRAUSS! WHO IS THAT GUY THAT LOOKS LIKE DRACULA OVER THERE??? GOSH! ANOTHER GAREN? I HOPE I CAN MEET HIM LIKE I MET KIVA! HE PICKED ME UP!" But, sadly, Greta did not get judged by Ace (because everyone, even the total clowns, strike Ace.) Love was in the air for Greta and Ace, though, as Dracula apparently hypnotized her with violent hand gestures and chain smoking. Like her idol Buffy, when true love bites, why slay it? An ace in the hole for Greta on that one... "The letter of the law was stuck against the fantasy that sustains if," if you know what I mean... Her secret, folks, is keepin? it in the family... Like, whoa, for brotherly love! POST-SEASON JUNIOR YEAR: Greta judged this year at the TOC, where she met Josh Garen from the Blake School for the first time. She actually judged Josh in a preliminary round, where he went only for rights Malthus. "I had to vote after the block," she cooed in her decision, "and I just want you to know that you are way better than Calum." Strauss claims there was actually some moaning during that decision, but when doesn't Dave hear women moaning? She claimed to not have noticed that the ballot said "Garen" on it; she said she could identify him by his Garen pheromone, as that is what reels her in every time. After Josh?s run-off round, Greta shook him down. "Are you really the youngest? What is your nickname? Do you like older women? What are your other brothers? names? Sleepy? Sneezy? Happy? Dopey? Doc? Bash...?" That was when J.W. stepped in and offered young Josh a sip of something to calm his nerves and asked Greta to embark on other tasks. IS THERE LIFE BEYOND GARENS FOR GRETA? (And if yes, is it worth living?) This story seems to sum Greta up better than anything else I could tell you about her: one night, while totally hammered, Greta amused herself for about an hour that her own name, when you rearrange the letters, spells "great." She said she had never really thought about it until then, but maybe it meant she was great after all. (Greta is genuinely modest, and the funniest person ever when drunk. I highly recommend that everyone buy her a drink. That is literally all it will take to see her drunk.) That night was the first night that she announced she wanted to be a part of a motorcycle gang, which is apparently a family tradition from Sweden. "My parents used to totally go to biker conventions," she said, "so it's in my blood, right?" Yeah right, Greta. Seeing the new Matrix movie has only fueled her motorcycle obsession, as now she sometimes pretends she is Trinity around our apartment and constantly asks me where Neo is. If you're reading this, Greta, please stop waking me up to accuse me of taking your Trinity pleather suit thing. I don't know where Neo is and I didn't borrow your biker girl gear, I swear. (I'm not making accusations, but check with Hatty if you actually want that back.) I don't know how many of you really know Greta, or have known her since her frosh year, but she continues to get progressively more daring. (You may have noticed this in her wardrobe changes. She bought and wore things that weren't only white or pastel this year!) Maybe she will get that motorcycle, who knows. Right now, since she has some time on the debate off-season, she has taken up cardio-kick boxing with someone who is so intense that he just might have trained Mao's entire army. If she skips kick boxing, her teacher Master Chung (as she MUST refer to him) calls and SCREAMS at her about the need for discipline and honor. Sometimes, after she is back from Master Chung's class, she shuffles slowly and somberly around the apartment. One time I asked her what was wrong, and with a straight face she just said, "I think Master Chung might have broken my butt." Yeah. Better him than Joe Koehele, I guess...? DCA & GRETA: I am really glad to see that Greta is such a valued and respected member of the debate community. She could really use a pick-me-up since her current plan to have Brian Simmonds set her up on a date with Joey Harrington (the dreamiest QB to ever play for the Lions and Simmonds' childhood buddy) appear to have failed miserably, despite "extensive lobbying" (much like his "extensive lobbying" effort to vote for SS this season; 17-0 against SS) from Brian. "Too Swedish," was the only comment Harrington would allegedly provide. However, now that Greta has received this adulation of her peers, I am confident Mr. Harrington will reconsider and romance will soon be blooming like Repko?s odor here in Michigan. Seriously, though - Greta is a great friend and good at LITERALLY everything, except maybe dressing herself. But, that?s why she has her debate and life partner Strauss, to help her with that. I know Greta will be successful at whatever she chooses to do, as long as she can keep away from communicable diseases. She is nominated for all of the academic superstar awards for graduate and/or law school, and I know she has a really good chance of winning -- as long as SARS or a mutated strain of the chicken pox doesn't strike her down. Anyone who can remember how Greta had to drop out of like eight tournaments her frosh year because of the chlamydia and Ebola strains she contracted that cross-bred and put her in the hospital knows that we don't just keep our fingers crossed for Greta to get past the octas, we just pray that her immune system can fight off what she comes into contact with. (I mean, debating Michigan FO? That's an assult on the immune system. Strange how it was the other MSU team that always bit it to FO and Greta managed to get by, huh?) This year, I knew her competitors thought highly of her adapted disease resistance abilities when Greta was complaining of a newly acquired throat disease at the TOC, and Jim Lux walked up to her and asked, "Oh, did Tristan give you the clap, too?" Way to go, Stahlgreta... I admire your taste and class, but certainly not your clap. Can anyone hook Greta up with the Garen home phone number...? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Sun May 18 01:04:37 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:04:37 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Re: Motives and Rationality in GBN Hazing Message-ID: let me ask a few simple questions of those fastiduously gentle souls who refer to this 'incident' as a sadistic ritual: first, what's so absolutely evil about humynoid waste? i mean, there seems to be some 'moral line' that i'm missing here - as if the 'sadists' in question would've been alright had they simply tossed *fresh* fruit on the iniatiates instead of fecal matter. there's also an element of humor which seems lost on many media-addicts. second, what's the difference between something like this and the so-called 'reality tv revolution'? on a show like 'fear factor', i could forsee people enduring a shit shower, and on a show like 'are you hot?', i could forsee someone enduring much more emotional trauma than in said 'incident' - the difference is that these events have millions of viewers and the sponsors make millions of dollars, whereas at gbn, the students are molded into the 'crazed teenager' scapegoats and get illegally punished (considering they *were not on skool property*). is the big distinction here that the humiliated students were not asked to sign legally-binding contracts first? third, humyn beings like being mean to one another - whether literally or figuratively, we all have to put up with each other's shit. and everytime i write anything on the oppression of young people or the disciplinary power of debate/skool, i get at least one e-mail (every time!) which makes the following argument: 'what if i *choose* to be 'disciplined'? isn't it my *choice* if i want to be 'oppressed'? (and i respond back with, 'of course, and i'm trying to describe the factors that go into those choices, so that you may think differently and choose better'.) ... well didn't these students choose to do this? didn't students make a rational decision to put up with shit so that they one day might dish the shit out to their lessers? do you think the shit you have to put up with to become a lawyer is any less horrendous? and when teachers humiliate students in class, why is that considered 'normal', but when students humiliate each other after skool-hours, that's 'sadism'? all of this speaks to an enormous adultist double-standard. if you don't like humialition rituals, then get outraged at all of them, regardless of whether its adults or children involved. but also recognize that you're challenging the traditional concept of individualistic 'free will', and this can be quite a slippery slope - cuz while i don't want to live in a world where shows like 'are you hot?' are popular, i also don't want to live in a world where governments (and its various branches) can censor/punish the sponsors of such shows. what pisses me off here, more than the images of willing students get a facefull of shit (and that's enraging to be sure), is the 'oh what has happened to our children?' thing, the paternalism, the hypocrisy, you know, the shit that's being rubbed in all our faces thanks to a bigoted culture. .k _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From GQDB8R Sun May 18 08:30:22 2003 From: GQDB8R (GQDB8R at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:30:22 EDT Subject: [eDebate] New DOF at Carrollton Sacred Heart in Miami Message-ID: <7e.38f6fcd6.2bf8e4ee@aol.com> The new DOF is Kenda Cunningham. After coming back from the rain forrest she decided she needed to be surrounded by the culture and is now planning on living amongst many swarthy types. On a real note, the program is happy to have her and ecstatic about bringing in someone as successful and cool as her. I look foward to having someone to look up to etc. Take Care Alex Acosta Asst.Coach Carrollton Sacred Heart -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030518/1585421f/attachment.html From jdfeldma Sun May 18 20:25:52 2003 From: jdfeldma (jdfeldma at umich.edu) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:25:52 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Have Mercy Message-ID: <1053307552.3ec832a01914c@carrierpigeon.mail.umich.edu> I thought I took a beating in my bio but Michigan FO is getting cranked in all the bio`s!!!!!!! This might have some reprecussions for my ego if I wasn`t in Japan at the moment where everybody assures me that my penis is quite large. I hope you are all enjoying the off-season, take care. ---Jonah EAT SNACKY SMORES From mardigras23 Mon May 19 00:43:04 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:43:04 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #5- Scott Phillips Message-ID: Scott received 38 points- two fifth place, three fourth place, four third place, two second place, and two first place votes. Scott's bio is pending, as Adam Goldstein has yet to turn it into me. The countdown must go on, though. Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Mon May 19 01:11:50 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:11:50 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] rubbing administration-advocates' noses in it.... Message-ID: Plan to Secure Postwar Iraq Faulted: Pentagon Ignored Lessons From Decade of Peacekeeping, Critics Say By Peter Slevin and Vernon Loeb Washington Post Staff Writers 19 May 2003 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7784-2003May18.html) BAGHDAD -- A month before the war began in Iraq, senior Bush administration officials said their plan for winning the peace was built upon the swift provision of basic services that would "immediately" make the Iraqi people feel they were better off than they had been under the government of Saddam Hussein. Five weeks after the war ended, the administration is still struggling to accomplish that goal. It has failed to establish law and order on the streets and has achieved only mixed results in restoring electricity, water, sanitation and other essential needs. In interviews here and in Washington, and in testimony on Capitol Hill, military officers, other administration officials and defense experts said the Pentagon ignored lessons from a decade of peacekeeping operations in Haiti, Somalia, the Balkans and Afghanistan. It also badly underestimated the potential for looting and lawlessness after the collapse of the Iraqi government, ***lacking forces*** capable of securing the streets of Baghdad in the transition from combat to postwar reconstruction. Only in the past week did administration officials begin to acknowledge publicly these miscalculations. They described continued lawlessness as a serious problem in Baghdad and called for ***more U.S. forces on the ground*** to quell a wave of violence that has kept American officials from assuring the Iraqi people that order would soon be restored. ... How and why senior military and civilian leaders at the Pentagon were caught unaware of the need to quickly make the transition from war-fighting to stability operations with adequate forces mystifies military officers, administration officials and defense experts with peacekeeping experience from the 1990s. "Somewhere behind the combat forces should have been somebody in large numbers who were going to do public security," said William Durch, a peacekeeping expert at the Stimson Center, a Washington think tank. "It's so elemental from looking at dozens of conflicts; you can't do anything without security." Defense experts inside and outside the Pentagon say military planners were clearly influenced by the Pentagon's belief, expressed by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and other senior leaders, that U.S. forces would be welcomed as liberators. They also point to the Bush administration's professed antipathy to military peacekeeping and nation-building, as articulated by the president during the 2000 campaign when he charged the Clinton administration with overextending the armed forces with such missions. Defense experts and some military officers also cite the Pentagon's determination to fight the war and maintain the peace with ***as small a force as possible***, noting it reflected Rumsfeld's determination to use the war in Iraq to support his vision for "transforming" the military by showing that smaller and lighter armed units, supported by Special Forces and air power, could prevail on the 21st century battlefield. "It's very important that you built this thing small," one senior Defense official with extensive peacekeeping experience said. "It validates Rumsfeld's view of the future." On Capitol Hill, however, even some Republicans are beginning to warn that the administration, having brilliantly prevailed on the battlefield, is in danger of losing the peace. The "hard lessons learned in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Haiti and Afghanistan on the need to quell emergent lawlessness seems to have fallen out of the battle plan during the dash to Baghdad," Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), chairman of a House Government Reform subcommittee, told a hearing on postwar Iraq last week. ___ asterik-portion intended to demonstrate (yet again) the desirability of recruiting already-existing opposition forces ... you know, like in a real war of liberation. Rumsfeld's concept of clean warfare got a lot of innocent people killed, because when you're not willing to put the boots on the ground, when you're not willing to die for your supposedly just causes, then you rely heavily on long-distance weaponry which cannot distinquish between a skool-girl, a surrendering soldier, and a suicidal guerilla. this is why many more civilians have been killed by usa forces in both both afghanistan and iraq than civilians were killed on 9/11, because the military brass fights without honor and their concern for life is nothing but p.r.-cosmetics. as if the people have iraq haven't suffered enough for the mistakes and atrocities of this empire (and the brits before the yanks as well). .k _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ko001k Mon May 19 14:56:58 2003 From: ko001k (Karim Oussayef) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Question about the Wyoming Debate Cooperative Message-ID: Can anyone tell me when WDC starts or give me the website if they have one? Thanks, Karim From stannardmatt Mon May 19 13:42:38 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:42:38 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Question about the Wyoming Debate Cooperative Message-ID: The cooperative is August 3-17. Coaches and students may register at any time until around mid-July, by sending me names and contact information. In July, we will post registration information along with a schedule and a list of those attending. We'll probably post periodic updates before then. Please let me know if you have any other questions. stannard >From: Karim Oussayef >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] Question about the Wyoming Debate Cooperative >Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:56:58 -0700 > >Can anyone tell me when WDC starts or give me the website if they have one? > >Thanks, >Karim > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From deepeezy Mon May 19 14:55:31 2003 From: deepeezy (David Peterson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:55:31 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] isaac from idaho Message-ID: hit me up. dp long beach _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From let_the_american_empire_burn Mon May 19 01:11:50 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:11:50 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] [CX-L] rubbing administration-advocates' noses in it.... Message-ID: Plan to Secure Postwar Iraq Faulted: Pentagon Ignored Lessons From Decade of Peacekeeping, Critics Say By Peter Slevin and Vernon Loeb Washington Post Staff Writers 19 May 2003 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7784-2003May18.html) BAGHDAD -- A month before the war began in Iraq, senior Bush administration officials said their plan for winning the peace was built upon the swift provision of basic services that would "immediately" make the Iraqi people feel they were better off than they had been under the government of Saddam Hussein. Five weeks after the war ended, the administration is still struggling to accomplish that goal. It has failed to establish law and order on the streets and has achieved only mixed results in restoring electricity, water, sanitation and other essential needs. In interviews here and in Washington, and in testimony on Capitol Hill, military officers, other administration officials and defense experts said the Pentagon ignored lessons from a decade of peacekeeping operations in Haiti, Somalia, the Balkans and Afghanistan. It also badly underestimated the potential for looting and lawlessness after the collapse of the Iraqi government, ***lacking forces*** capable of securing the streets of Baghdad in the transition from combat to postwar reconstruction. Only in the past week did administration officials begin to acknowledge publicly these miscalculations. They described continued lawlessness as a serious problem in Baghdad and called for ***more U.S. forces on the ground*** to quell a wave of violence that has kept American officials from assuring the Iraqi people that order would soon be restored. ... How and why senior military and civilian leaders at the Pentagon were caught unaware of the need to quickly make the transition from war-fighting to stability operations with adequate forces mystifies military officers, administration officials and defense experts with peacekeeping experience from the 1990s. "Somewhere behind the combat forces should have been somebody in large numbers who were going to do public security," said William Durch, a peacekeeping expert at the Stimson Center, a Washington think tank. "It's so elemental from looking at dozens of conflicts; you can't do anything without security." Defense experts inside and outside the Pentagon say military planners were clearly influenced by the Pentagon's belief, expressed by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and other senior leaders, that U.S. forces would be welcomed as liberators. They also point to the Bush administration's professed antipathy to military peacekeeping and nation-building, as articulated by the president during the 2000 campaign when he charged the Clinton administration with overextending the armed forces with such missions. Defense experts and some military officers also cite the Pentagon's determination to fight the war and maintain the peace with ***as small a force as possible***, noting it reflected Rumsfeld's determination to use the war in Iraq to support his vision for "transforming" the military by showing that smaller and lighter armed units, supported by Special Forces and air power, could prevail on the 21st century battlefield. "It's very important that you built this thing small," one senior Defense official with extensive peacekeeping experience said. "It validates Rumsfeld's view of the future." On Capitol Hill, however, even some Republicans are beginning to warn that the administration, having brilliantly prevailed on the battlefield, is in danger of losing the peace. The "hard lessons learned in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Haiti and Afghanistan on the need to quell emergent lawlessness seems to have fallen out of the battle plan during the dash to Baghdad," Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), chairman of a House Government Reform subcommittee, told a hearing on postwar Iraq last week. ___ asterik-portion intended to demonstrate (yet again) the desirability of recruiting already-existing opposition forces ... you know, like in a real war of liberation. Rumsfeld's concept of clean warfare got a lot of innocent people killed, because when you're not willing to put the boots on the ground, when you're not willing to die for your supposedly just causes, then you rely heavily on long-distance weaponry which cannot distinquish between a skool-girl, a surrendering soldier, and a suicidal guerilla. this is why many more civilians have been killed by usa forces in both both afghanistan and iraq than civilians were killed on 9/11, because the military brass fights without honor and their concern for life is nothing but p.r.-cosmetics. as if the people have iraq haven't suffered enough for the mistakes and atrocities of this empire (and the brits before the yanks as well). .k _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ cx-l mailing list cx-l at debate.net http://total.confusion.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/cx-l From mardigras23 Mon May 19 18:07:45 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:07:45 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #5- Scott Phillips with Bio Message-ID: BEHIND THE CARDS: SCOTT THOMAS PHILLIPS Produced by Adam Goldstein When most people think of Scott Thomas Phillips, they think of a robust man standing up at awards assemblies and receiving a top five speaker award as a frickin sophomore or giving a devastating 2NC or 1AR in a late elimination round of a national tournament. While this is the Scott Phillips we know today, few know that his rise to debate greatness was indeed plagued with scandal and personal hardship. It all started back in a suburb of Minneapolis, Minnesota where a young Scotty P would find himself involved in a life of drugs, thuggish street crime, and prostitution. The pleas of his parents telling him to turn his life around could only do so much. He was quick to pull out from the drug scene (a decision he has vehemently stuck with to this very day) and he removed himself from Minneapolis?s crime-filled underworld. However, he was unable to resist selling his body on those harsh Minnesota streets. One day, his elementary school called his parents to tell them that he wasn?t in school. He was later found selling his wares in a local nursing home. This had to stop?His parents decided that it was time to send their boy to a military school called St Thomas Academy. The adjustment was a lot more difficult than he had imagined. For one, the school had a strict no-prostitution policy for which a single violation was punishable with expulsion. Second, the school required a strict regimen of physical exercise. Scott Phillips decided that the only way for him to avoid this burdensome requirement was to start a high school debate team and fully immerse himself in the national high school debate scene. It was this crucial move that allowed him to meet a young man known as Ram Rod who would propel the troubled Scott Phillips to greatness. Given that no good debaters had ever come out of the state of Minnesota, Scott and Ramrod quickly rose to greatness at the state level. Beginning with a quarterfinals finish at the NFL National Tournament their sophomore year, the stage had been set for lots of success. In order to meet women in lieu of his inability to legally sell his body, he decided to become a vegetarian in order to seem more sensitive to women in the debate community. Giving up his carnivorous ways was relatively easy for Scott Phillips with his newly discovered discipline. However, he has always found it difficult to resist his most favorite cut of meat?the tubesteak!! In his junior year, Scott quickly made waves by becoming known as one of the fastest speaking debaters ever. His need for speed, however, came at a price in the quarterfinals of the Glenbrooks Tournament when they would debate a young Ben Thorpe hailing from Pace Academy. Famed high school critic Marie Dzuris found herself unable to comprehend the blazing Scotty P leaving her with no choice but to pick up the team from Pace Academy. Another critic on the panel, Tim Alderete, found Scotty?s girth and speed attractive and cast his ballot for STP and ramrod. The third critic, by far the most qualified, a young Adam Goldstein voted alongside Marie for Pace Academy but also gave the young Scott Phillips some of the best debate advice he would ever hear. Adam: ?I think your politics disad would have been better with a winners-win link argument. It is a lot less turnable.? Scotty P: ?But dude. They straight impact turned our d/a.? Adam: ?Yeah?well?whatever.? In his senior year, he decided to slow down and go for critical arguments. He was consistently donned with top speaker trophies and large victories over top teams all over the countries. While haunted by the likes of Stacey Nathan and Michael Klinger of GBN fame (a haunting that would continue throughout his college career), he was widely considered the best high school debater in the country. This fame came at a price though. His grades left quite a bit to be desired. However, they seemed to be just good enough to sneak him through the Emory Admissions process. As a young first-year debating as a member of the Barkley Forum, Scott quickly distinguished himself in many ways. For one, it was quickly realized that he was the only other member of the Barkley Forum that could be as crude, verbally disgusting, and perverted as Adam Goldstein. Second, he established himself as one of the first Emory freshman to do a lick of debate work in the history of the Barkley Forum. Third, Scotty P, debating with the accomplished Didi Kuo, would attempt to become a virtual clone of Dartmouth BT by ripping off arguments such as the irrelevant and inane story of what happened in that mythical town of Omelas. It should be known here that despite his propensity to rip off other teams? successful arguments, Scott is an extremely innovative debater. One such innovation was the ABCD method of extending kritiks in the 2NC. In his overview he would state that there were four kinds of 2AC answers to kritiks. A type arguments were link answers, B type arguments are impact answers, C type arguments are permutations, and D type arguments were alternative feasibility questions. He would then, still in his overview, read a block to each type of argument. Then he would go to the line by line and say at top speed, ?2AC number 1?that?s a type A argument. 2AC two?that?s a type D argument. 2AC three?that?s type C, and so forth.? He also became famous by winning numerous debates on the 1.3 second counterplan to do the plan now in response to arguments that the plan would be on the bottom of the docket. Scott?s brilliant innovations were not limited to debate. He also started his own type of diet plan for vegetarians. While some people do things like the Atkins diet or the grapefruit diet, Scotty P developed the vegetable-free fat and starch diet. A typical day on this diet would consist of a multivitamin for breakfast, Cheese dip for lunch, a french fry and mayonnaise sandwich for a snack, and either fettucine alfredo, mac and cheese, or mashed potatoes for dinner. Unfortunately, few of these innovations amassed a widespread following. However, during his first-year he would strap numerous older Emory debaters on his back during many a weekend at various tournaments to bring success to the BF. One such tournament was the William Jewel Invitational where he debated with a very sick and very old Adam Goldstein. It was Adam?s crucial decision to give the double ones, which allowed this team to make it to the semifinals before pulling out on account of illness. The young debate prodigy?s success would not end in Kansas City. Him and Didi the Status Kuo found themselves debating in the finals of Novice Nationals against the freshman superstars Klinger and Tarloff. Things seemed to be going well for the team from Emory until Tarloff, widely known as a 2AR terrorist, struck again leaving Scott and Didi forced to accept second place. It was at this tournament however where the young Scott Phillips would distinguish himself on Emory?s squad once again as the man who changed the job responsibilities of the illustrious Bill Newnam from debate coach to vomit cleaner when Scott?s departure from his fat and starch diet at Evanston?s Flattop Grill caused him to become sick and puke more than any other human being in one of the bathrooms at the Omni Orrington hotel. As this debate season drew to a close, it appeared that Scott?s addiction to debate would leave him skating on the brink of ineligibility due to grades. However, his determination proved sufficient to avoid those consequences. Debate was not Scott?s only addiction this year though. He also found himself struggling with a devastating addiction to Ebay. On one occasion, much like Scott spread out a 2NR with his devastating 1AR, he decided to spread himself out when bidding on 15 different pairs of designer sunglasses. Much to his surprise, his bids on all 15 pairs emerged as the winners and he was forced to eat the cost of all 15 pairs. On another occasion he stole the digital camera of one Victoria Suarez-Palomo and put it up for auction on Ebay. Apparantly, she was unwilling to pay Scott for losing a bet due to her inability to resist the physical temptations and prowess of another member of the Barkley Forum who is choosing to remain anonymous. However, he overcame this addiction as well and truly began his rise to debate superstardom during his sophomore year. It was this year, that Scott Phillips would continue the tradition of strapping elder members of the BF on his broad shoulders. This time, the elder debater would be none other than the tired, weary, slow, and heart-broken Joshua Benjamin Lynn. Since I was not in Atlanta this year, I was only able to watch his success from afar. However despite the arguments presented by this year?s NDT champions from Northwestern, the success of the team Emory LP was hardly local, but a global phenomenon. Strong performances all year culminating in a tournament championship at the Coon, led most to conclude that they were the second best team in the nation, except for the more enlightened Dallas Perkins. As Yoda said about a young Anakin Skywalker, ?We will see great things from this man.? Scott Phillips is an outstanding debate talent who is incredibly versatile. He can debate all types of arguments at all different speeds. He is incredibly committed and is one of the hardest workers I have had the privilege of working with. But most importantly, he is an outstanding friend. He is one of the most loyal people I have known and despite his late night evenings in the debate office with Traister, Roy, AFO, and Stabile watching porn, he is one of the most moral people that I have the pleasure of associating with. I love you guy, and I wish you the best over the next two years. We all expect to see great things from you. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From let_the_american_empire_burn Sun May 18 01:04:37 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:04:37 -0500 Subject: [CX-L] Re: [eDebate] Re: Motives and Rationality in GBN Hazing Message-ID: let me ask a few simple questions of those fastiduously gentle souls who refer to this 'incident' as a sadistic ritual: first, what's so absolutely evil about humynoid waste? i mean, there seems to be some 'moral line' that i'm missing here - as if the 'sadists' in question would've been alright had they simply tossed *fresh* fruit on the iniatiates instead of fecal matter. there's also an element of humor which seems lost on many media-addicts. second, what's the difference between something like this and the so-called 'reality tv revolution'? on a show like 'fear factor', i could forsee people enduring a shit shower, and on a show like 'are you hot?', i could forsee someone enduring much more emotional trauma than in said 'incident' - the difference is that these events have millions of viewers and the sponsors make millions of dollars, whereas at gbn, the students are molded into the 'crazed teenager' scapegoats and get illegally punished (considering they *were not on skool property*). is the big distinction here that the humiliated students were not asked to sign legally-binding contracts first? third, humyn beings like being mean to one another - whether literally or figuratively, we all have to put up with each other's shit. and everytime i write anything on the oppression of young people or the disciplinary power of debate/skool, i get at least one e-mail (every time!) which makes the following argument: 'what if i *choose* to be 'disciplined'? isn't it my *choice* if i want to be 'oppressed'? (and i respond back with, 'of course, and i'm trying to describe the factors that go into those choices, so that you may think differently and choose better'.) ... well didn't these students choose to do this? didn't students make a rational decision to put up with shit so that they one day might dish the shit out to their lessers? do you think the shit you have to put up with to become a lawyer is any less horrendous? and when teachers humiliate students in class, why is that considered 'normal', but when students humiliate each other after skool-hours, that's 'sadism'? all of this speaks to an enormous adultist double-standard. if you don't like humialition rituals, then get outraged at all of them, regardless of whether its adults or children involved. but also recognize that you're challenging the traditional concept of individualistic 'free will', and this can be quite a slippery slope - cuz while i don't want to live in a world where shows like 'are you hot?' are popular, i also don't want to live in a world where governments (and its various branches) can censor/punish the sponsors of such shows. what pisses me off here, more than the images of willing students get a facefull of shit (and that's enraging to be sure), is the 'oh what has happened to our children?' thing, the paternalism, the hypocrisy, you know, the shit that's being rubbed in all our faces thanks to a bigoted culture. .k _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ cx-l mailing list cx-l at debate.net http://total.confusion.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/cx-l From Reginapaulose Mon May 19 19:01:09 2003 From: Reginapaulose (Reginapaulose at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:01:09 EDT Subject: [eDebate] South Asian Law Conference Message-ID: Seattle University's School of Law is proud to be hosting this year's National South Asian Law Conference. A call for papers can be found on the SALSA website. Anyone who has done research on the intersection of international law and human rights with an emphasis on South Asia is invited to submit a proposal. Other presentation formats are also invited... For more information, please visit our website: www.law.seattleu.edu/salsa Regina From mmk_savant Mon May 19 20:55:11 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:55:11 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Sawyer re Lynch Message-ID: come on... do the follow-up too... like today's CNN story about the DoD's answer: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/19/sprj.irq.bbc.lynch.dod/index.html Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030519/4b7088dc/attachment.htm From privethedge Mon May 19 20:56:29 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] FInal Info for Schoosl Recruiting at Catholic Nationals Message-ID: <20030520015629.23186.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com> HI, Just to make one final announcement. I have received packet stuffing from some of you already, and will hope to see the rest of you on Thursday (I'll get back to each of you with the times) at the hotel for your contributions (I can only stuff so many by myself). Any school who wants a presence at the hotel on Friday and/or Sunday, we have secured 6 tables for you (seperate tables, allowing you to set up a display, sit an chat with kids, etc). However, we are requesting a $50.00 donation to cover the setup charges, and space useage (plus, we are a poor organization, so every bit of money helps). Anyone wanting to be at the hotel on either day, or both days, please let me know ASAP, so I can get a list of those doing that. Thanks to all who have taken advantage of this offer. This is a unique event, and this will be the first time we've had Policy programs doing recruitment on site (in past years, IE progams have come, but not team debate). We thank you for your interest, time, and materials. THanks, Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030519/6a977d31/attachment.html From mardigras23 Mon May 19 23:07:17 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:07:17 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #4- Tejinder Singh Message-ID: Tejinder received 39 points- one fourth place, two third place, four second place, and three first place votes. Tejinder "We Have a Mouse Problem" Singh by Dan Shalmon Tejinder Singh was voted one of the top ten debaters in the country this year. I just thought I would state the obvious because for those of us who have witnessed his evolution from a hairy, fledgling Luskey groupie to the fantastically talented debater that he is today, this whole thing has been a little disorienting. If only to make sure everyone is on the same page, I should probably go over some background info. Tejinder Singh's first tournament of the year was the Clay. He blazed through it all the way to the finals, when the debate gods suddenly remembered that he is a Berkeley student and ordered that he lose on a unanimous decision. I don't have his bid app in front of me at the moment, but suffice to say that although a little problem with MSU SS threatened his sanity and his first round ranking, the man consistently appeared in the elims of the toughest tournaments of the year. More importantly, (in his eyes anyway) he engaged in what he thought of as a head-to-head speaker award contest with one Calum Lister Matheson. Those of us who know him realize that Tejinder isn't one to take himself too seriously, so it's interesting that he developed a rivalry (of course, calling it a rivalry is a little generous since I don't know if Calum was informed, and certainly most of the community was unaware). Calum beat him again at the NDT - if Calum had been the 15th speaker and Tejinder the 14th, I'm sure Tejinder would've quit already - but he had to settle for 3rd, so he'll be back again next year. I find that when most people who don't already know Tejinder better than me talk to me about him, it's usually in question format, so that's how I will do this: Question 1: What's with the beard/turban/super powers? Tejinder is a Sikh. Those of you familiar with the subject of this bio (or say, the caselist) know this. Sikhs traditionally believe in bodily modesty, which includes, among other things, not cutting one's hair. Tejinder does not cut his hair (much to the chagrin of the many women who ask his advice on the subject). Tejinder is a very spiritual person. This will come as no surprise to those of you who have judged and subsequently voted against Tejinder as you have heard his reflexive invocation of the name of the Lord and the Lord's son, coupled with expletives of various kinds and derivations. As for super powers, I can only speculate that Tejinder's mother is in fact a Grey.This explains her attitude about debate ('Second? I guess that's pretty good - who came in first?') No human can clean that fast. Or scare Tejinder so effectively, or kick so much ass while being so incredibly sweet. That makes Tejinder a hybrid, and as such he has some supra-human capabilities, although the extent of his abilities is unknown even to me, here is a preliminary list: 1) Quickness of thought. The man got two questions wrong on the SAT. His grades are nearly flawless. If you consider the fact that he avoids studying like the plague, this is considerably more impressive. He can speak three languages (that I know of). He can program a computer and does computer graphics 'stuff' for 'fun.' 2) Poker. He's good at it. Very good. Planet Poker's 10 Most Wanted List good. Here's where I'll insert the obligatory Luskey Quote of the Day: "He was such an innocent, young, naive lad with worthy ambitions and strong values before he moved into an apartment with (me) for his sophmore year. Within 12 months, he was sitting at a 30-60 table at the Bellagio. Nuff said." 3) Wire Sculpture. He does this too, and he's not bad at it. And by 'not bad' I mean when he does it, he bleeds like a stuck pig. 4) Video Games. Three words: Busta Move Two. Do not fuck with the master. Watching him play Madden is a little like watching Any Given Sunday with a Bobby Knight voicetrack. 5) Telepathy. I've thought about this one for some time. I thought about calling it 'the ability to draw distinctions' or 'argumentative development,' but I decided these were inaccurate as they do not reflect the true skill involved in what I'm referencing. For example, Tejinder's Affirmative changed several times over the course of the year. I know this only because I discussed it with him frequently. Although the distinctions between 'empathy' and 'solidarity' and 'judgment good' seem confusing to those of us of the 'just say whatever they say is good is bad rusty hubb' school of debate, they entirely altered Tejinder's Affirmative arguments - at least you'd think so once you heard his 2AC 'boy did you fuck up by reading your old case neg' block. This is just normal debate strategery. What sets Tejinder apart is his ability to distinguish 'we are a bridge to the topic' from 'we affirm the topic as a bridge' from 'we defend the ICC as it is relevant to our project (not a bridge),' not only could he mentally justify the claim that these were in fact DIFFERENT approaches to debate, he could convince judges (panels of them even) that these were BOTH novel AND defensible approaches. Clearly this is indicative of a Professor X-esque ability to suspend time, space and everything we humans call reality for a small number of people. Question 2: Why is he always mumbling about "white chicks" If you asked Tejinder this he would say "because they are the rake." This brings me to another one of his astonishing abilities - I have seen Tejinder speak for hours without slipping out of the strange combination of Ross Smith, Ace Garen, Simpsons, Lebowski, The Big Hit, Rounders, True Romance, A Few Good Men, Snatch, Clerks, Jay and Silent Bob and Chasing Amy that is Tejinder's Berkeley-speak. Tejinder has had a.... storied... relationship with the fair sex. Had I written this bio a few months ago, this section would have been very different. Of course, as anyone who was at the bar at Northwestern (or been in our house, or goes to Texas, or talks to Tejinder) knows Tejinder's lovelife has taken a turn for the better recently. Sara Apel. Those of you who don' t know her.... well... you should. Aside from being a very talented debater and a fun person to hang out with she is the only woman I've seen Tejinder show interest in that hasn't done any of the following: a) hooked up with his debate partner b) hooked up with him, given him a phone number and then told him not to call it c) been a deceitful evil witch d) hooked up with him and eaten two pounds of chocolate frosting immediately afterwards e) gotten him attacked by a bird (see below) f) hooked up with his roommate, his friend and then turned into a psychotic witch. That none of these things has happened can only be ascribed to luck (it was bound to happen eventually) or the fact that she is totally cool. Of course, we all think Sara is the coolest, but her presence brings with it challenges. For example, she gives Ivo nervous spasms. Since their relationship started, Tejinder has developed a fascination with the art of tea-bagging - this of course makes his roommate (read: most likely target) very nervous. Trevor Wells has promised to give Tejinder lessons, so Ivo's tea-bag free days may be numbered. Another example: beard fondling. It's a crime in several states, but not in California. Needless to say, the Berkeley Debate Team leads the charge to legalize it. Er, criminalize it. Question 3: Where the hell did this guy come from? Berkeley. Well, he goes to school here. He was born in India. That's where he was bitten by a monkey. He immigrated to America by way of Germany in 1984. Shortly after his arrival, he was attacked by a swan. He spent the bulk of his childhood in San Jose, where his family decided that the best way to get him ready to live like a normal American was to send him to an all-boys school, Bellarmine Prep. He refers to this time as 'the dickfest,' which apparently it was. Seeking greener pastures and the company of.... well... women... and by women I mean Randy Luskey, he chose to attend Berkeley. Mother Nature continued her war on Tejinder by sending a 'rock dove' (otherwise known as a 'pigeon') to visit him. On his way to a meeting ('date' may be too strong a term) with an attractive young lady, he crossed the main plaza of our campus when the bird took off, suddenly becoming ensnared in Tejinder's beard, flapping frantically in an attempt to extricate itself from Tejinder's facial-hair bird-trap. Question 4: Does he do any work? (Jason Peterson and Dave Strauss have asked me this 20 times I swear) No. Tejinder does not cut many cards. He is too smart for it - he knows all he needs to win are a couple of high cards and some smoke and mirrors and a decent kicker, so he doesn't turn out stacks and stacks of evidence. He's also very very lazy. Cutting cards and PS 2 - zero sum. He really hates doing all the bullshit - scanning, scissors and tape, creating blocks, filing, etc. When Tejinder does get bored enough to do some work, it is of very high quality - or so I've been told by his high school partner. Tejinder doesn't fuel the Berkeley evidence machine. But without him, the plane would crash into the mountain. Tejinder contributes to our team and its members in ways that can't be indexed or accordionized. He provides us with fantastic Cal Debate quotes for use in every day language. For example, Luskey in his time supplied us with "Who is the Other?" "Huh?" "Who is the OTHER?" "Ohhhhh.... The Other? Africa." When he switched coasts, Haratani stepped into the breech: "What was UNT's add-on?" "I'm not sure... don't remember..." "Racism? Leadership? Overpop?" "I dunno.... seemed pretty normative to me." Tejinder has added several wonderful little quotes to our daily banter, many of them unfit to print. For example, "I quit." Tejinder, in characteristically decisive fashion added this particular phrase to our everyday discourse by... well... quitting. Twice. At West GA. Tejinder hates that place. It has since become a response to potential assignments, partner arrangements, tub moving, demands for dinner, losing the 'not it' game, etc. We call this quote "This One Time Tejinder Went for the DA:" CX of the 1AC - Tejinder's first neg round. He has several accordions of unhighlighted CTBT Neg, and a much-easier-to-highlight Prolif K file sitting on his desk. A university which remains nameless decides to deploy the following brilliant CX strategy: TJ:"So, why is proliferation destabilizing?" X:"Well, because these people don't know how to handle big complicated technological doohickies and all the flashing lights confuse them...causes accidents." TJ mental monologue: Well, he just said brown people can't deal with colored lights... Maybe he'll give me another link quote... I wonder what's for lunch... I bet Calum didn't get concessions this fast round 1... Stupid Calum. TJ (verbally): "So is the mere possession of these weapons by additional countries dangerous?" X: "Well yeah, even if they just get them that's bad too." TJ: "Why?" X: "Well, it can be dangerous." TJ: "How?" X: "Well, consider our current situation with that camel fucker in Iraq." Although under normal circumstances this would constitute admirable deployment of a Lebowski reference - clearly this was not the smartest way to go in the cross-ex. Of course, Tejinder, being the brilliant debater that he is, capitalized on this monumental screwup by kicking the K in the 2NC and going for space militarization and the case. This is a formative moment for the subject of this bio because when I say "Space Mil and the Case" I mean he dropped the entire case and not one but two add-ons. (He says he only dropped one, but "Nabita Abita" was pretty much the sum total of Cal's line by line coverage of Add-On The First) That Tejinder won this debate can only be ascribed to a) sheer dumb luck b) hypnotism (see above) or c) residual judge anger at the 1AC's willful disregard for strategic thinking. So, naturally, Tejinder learned his lesson. Most people would react by trying to "cover in the 2NR." But Tejinder Singh saw the deeper meaning of this experience: "Go for the K. Always." Any coach would be thrilled to have Tejinder around. Tejinder is one of those debaters whose contributions to strategic planning function as a 'force multiplier.' For example, at a debate meeting: Coach X: "So when they say that Chinese nuclear modernization trades off with conventional force deployments, we'll say that it creates a cover for aggression at lower levels of the escalation ladder and that the investments are mostly sunken cost... Why are you jumping up and down and waving your hand, Tejinder?" TJ: "I know! I know!" Coach X: "Know what?" TJ: "I forgot. Can we get dinner now?" Coach Y: "Did you actually have a relevant question or what?" TJ: "Yeah. What I want to know is, have you found my card yet?" Coach Y: "Huh?" TJ: "You know... the card..." (Garen gestures, Ross voice) Coach Y: "What the hell are you talking about?" TJ: "God DAMMIT! I ask so little of you Lord! (three minutes of ranting profanity deleted to protect the innocent) The card that says the ICC could have stopped Blue Star!" Coach Y: "I thought you said that didn't exist?" TJ: "No, I said you should find it for me. I tell you what - I'll settle for "ICC within 20 Blue Star." I swear to God that this dialogue was repeated almost verbatim at no less than 25 Cal Debate meetings. He can also read Dave Arnett's mind... Dave is a brilliant guy, but he isn't the best communicator. Tejinder has a mental Arnett decoder ring. For example: Normal humans hear: "Hey TJ, come over to my house and we'll work on the wording paper." Tejinder hears: "How about we play Street on my PS 2 until 5 in the morning the day before our big fundraiser, occasionally screaming EUROPE???EUROPE?? and 'Did Blue Star happen in Europe? Are you sure?" Third, he cleans. This is an ability I think he may have inherited from mom. Much of Iraq's chem-bio infrastructure was in fact located in our kitchen. Ever seen what happens when soymilk attains consciousness? it isn't pretty. That he runs these risks when no one else does demonstrates a broader (and final) point about Tejinder: Tejinder Singh may well be the best friend/roommate/debate partner/sober drinking buddy a person could ask for. Although we've all received the occasional "stay away from Tejinder for 24 hours" vibe, I have never once seen him respond to a friend in need with anything less than superhuman generosity, kindness and caring. What makes this even more remarkable is that his willingness to care and support knows almost no bounds. For example: Berkeley is flush with homeless or very-nearly-homeless people. Tejinder is the only person I know who consistently reacts to this constant stream of strangers in need with generosity and kindness inspired not out of guilt, but out of an open-hearted and undying faith that all people owe each other a helping hand. Several of these people are his friends. For almost everyone who walks by, they are either 'victims of the Invisible (but Evil) Hand' or 'poor souls' or 'annoying rabble' but for Tejinder, they are just another person to get to know, to befriend and commiserate with. He leaves the dinner table to chat with them - he treats them like human beings - something that even the 'compassionate' sometimes fail to do. One man in particular comes to mind. He was asking for money because he said his mother needed painkillers. Tejinder spoke to him and he said that his mother was dying of cancer and needed pills to die painlessly. The man took Tejinder to her room several blocks from his initially-intended destination, and Tejinder bought her the medicine for a not insignificant amount of money. The thing about Tejinder that amazes me is that he does not suffer from the narcissism of the kind. He is probably a little taken aback or upset that I have told you all about this story - but it is an act that I think illustrates exactly the kind of person he is, and because I cannot find a better way to express it all, it's what I'll use. Tejinder does these things because he could not be any other way - it is who and what he is. Tejinder has never thought of his teammates as "students of UC Berkeley on the debate team" - his mental concept of 'team' has always included folks from other squads. For his teammates, Tejinder is more valuable than a card-cutting machine of equivalent intelligence. He is, at turns, a steadying hand in a psychological or personal storm, a shoulder to cry on, a pump-up artist of Pacino-esque capability, a designated driver, a role model, a needed laugh in a sea of nervousness, a (fuzzy, masculine) victory hug, and at times the sole voice of reason calming the frazzled nerves and egos of an entire team of schmucks. He is loyal, honest and giving. His leadership is quiet, unassuming and brilliant. He commands respect and loyalty without knowing it or meaning to, and by his example makes us all better people than we otherwise might be. I would never have gone to school 2,000 miles physically (and light-years psychologically and culturally) away from my home if I hadn't known Tejinder would be here to greet me. I know I would not have made it through the last three years without him - and while my presence may be of dubious benefit to the community, I know at least a couple of others wouldn't have made it either. Someone far better than I once told me: there are smart debaters and there are smart people who debate. Tejinder is always the latter even if he sometimes fails to act like the former. He knows more about this activity than almost anyone - he gets it. All of it. Which is why I am honored to have the opportunity to write his bio for the DCA. Congrats, guy. Dan A. Shalmon UC Berkeley And the rest of the "team" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mardigras23 Wed May 21 00:10:59 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:10:59 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #3- Charles Olney Message-ID: Charles received 114 points- four fifth place, five fourth place, twelve third place, eleven second place, and four first place votes Charles Olney By Peter McCollum and Jessica Clarke (with contributions from Emily Cordo and Brian Ward)* Those of us who have known Charles from the early days of debate have always expected him to be a winner. Within his first weeks of debate class at Oak Harbor High School Charles had clearly distinguished himself from the other young novices; though, mostly because he was the only person who had not yet accidentally stabbed himself with scissors. But, in short time, Charles had proven early predictors accurate by achieving outstanding success in the form of a 6-0 record in novice division at the Whitman high school tournament. As we know now, this was the beginning of a long winning tradition for the young lad from Whidbey Island. But, back then things didn? t come so easily to our hero. There are a few things you should probably know about Mr. Olney?s high school days that make it all the more remarkable that he grew up to be the fine citizen and debater that he is today: First, Charles is a reformed criminal- At the Berkeley institute before his junior year Charles masterminded a ring of outlaws whose numerous crimes included theft, destruction of property and perjury. This group of outlaws perpetrated a two-week crime wave. They violated curfews and noise ordinances, they kept a dead pigeon on the balcony of their lab room, they stole clothing from one or more lab leaders, and they dumped down a rubbish chute several objects including: recyclable aluminum cans, unblocked evidence, a university-owned garbage can and Jeff Henderson. All of these offenses were then blamed on innocent bystanders. Through a series of lies and ?disappearing? witnesses, Charles and his cohorts were never found guilty of any wrong-doing. Second, Charles was a dirty hippie - Before Charles became the fun, terrorist-fearing and hegemony-loving, guy he is today, he was once a leftist. I know this comes as a surprise to all fans of impact turning the kritik (or ?critique? as it?s known in the Whitman squad room), but it?s true. Among the arguments Charles produced in his early days was: the K of Nuclearism, Deep Ecology, The K of Nuclear-Discourse (don?t ask how this is different from Nuclearism), Social Ecology, Net-Widening, a K of Criminology, a K of Animal Testing, several Ks of Realism, a K of Topicality, a K of Taco Bell, Statism, and a kritik known only as ?Rufus.? When recently asked about these arguments (specifically ?Rufus?) Mr. Olney had no comment. Third, Charles was bad - Though this is still contested, there has been much historical debate over whether or not, as a high school debater, Charles ?sucked.? Most evidence to this end comes mostly from Charles? junior year when he was paired with Northwest debate living-legend Peter McCollum. During the year spent doing Mr. McCollum?s ?1?s? (and, as anyone would tell you, doing Mr. McCollum?s ?research? and possibly ?homework,? all while Mr. McCollum ?was a lazy bastard?). Charles was often accused of being a ?tool.? This belief was partially fueled by Charles? refusal to answer cross-examination questions, but is still mostly supported by hearsay. However, it is reported that Peter adamantly disputed claims of Charles? supposed ineptitude, and would tell all who criticized that: ?Charles is going to be an awesome debater!? It is strongly believed that this is, to date, the only thing Mr. McCollum has ever been right about. Charles Olney is the only frosh in Whitman College history to ever show up the first day with a completed research assignment. Jessica was a senior that year. Since her partner had graduated, she had to pick a new one, and there were a number of strong contenders. Jim Hanson said, "that kid, Charles, very soon he'll be as good as any first round college debater out there." Jessica was wary because Charles seemed rather shy and his fashion sense left much to be desired, even by the standards of a community including Dan Shalmon and the Garen family. Charles' wardrobe consisted of some old pants and three holey t-shirts: one with a swastika with a circle slash around it, one that said "stop the hate" and the third: "another skinhead for peace" with a picture of Gandhi. And, even Charles has said about his hair: ?I look like a refugee from the 70s.? After the partnership decision was announced, the team began an all night drinking binge. Charles did not join in the drinking, although he did sit through one of Jessica?s finer moments, listening as she repeated over and over again how lucky he was to get to be her partner and reminding him that she had won CEDA Nationals the year before. Jessica often wonders how the team did not manage to corrupt Charles. With such responsible drinkers as herself and JP Lacy as role models, surely Charles should have learned that a little booze now and then never hurt anybody? But larger problems loomed. Charles was in need of some serious re-programming. Obviously this hippy shit couldn?t be tolerated. Thus began Charles' transition from hippy peacenik to Colonel Jessup. Charles? 2NR in the Finals of CEDA Nationals featured the memorable movie quote: "We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You?" He was banned from mentioning his favorite argument from high school: the "anti-nuclear poetry" aff produced by Corey Rayburn's lab. Unfortunately, the Whitman coaching staff never could get him to shake Corey's other teaching advice: "talk sssssllllllloooooooowwwww." Charles begrudgingly put his critiques away and started researching real arguments. Although most people who have met Charles through debate know a thing or two about his political leanings, not much is known about what Charles is like outside of debate. Strangely, no one at Whitman knows either. In fact in between tournaments Charles has rarely been seen by any Whitman students who aren?t part of the debate squad. On the Whitman campus Charles sightings have become a phenomenon akin to seeing bigfoot. One person from Charles' freshman dorm offered the following reflections: Charles, being the ambitious young whippersnapper that he was, spent so much time in the debate office that he was almost never seen in our freshman section. Despite living right next door, many people saw him only once or twice the entire semester, and few even knew what he looked like. Charles was much more myth than reality. While passing around a 40 of Old English people would talk about confirmed "Charles sightings". Whether the so-called Charles-circles found some mornings were evidence of his presence in the wee hours of the night or just a well orchestrated hoax, we may never know. As he never found his way back to the dorm at night, Charles turned a 5 foot by 10 foot closet in the debate building into his own personal bedroom, complete with sleeping bag, pillow, and microwave. For some unknown reason, the entire team began calling this room "the whorehouse." While it seemed odd at the time, this name may explain why, two summers later while backpacking through Europe, Charles was the recipient of extensive attention from prostitutes in two different European nations. To date, the only significant stretch of time Charles has spent outside of the squad room was to make his screen acting debut as Gandalf in the Whitman Debate Movie: The Return of the King. If you The movie has made him a celebrity with Whitman students. Charles' Gandalf is the only character in the movie not to engage in obvious substance abuse. After Jessica?s departure from Whitman, Charles teamed up with Thad Blank to form Whitman BO. Because Thad has left the country, we cannot provide you with any details on that part of Charles? life. Suffice it to say that Charles had his work cut out for him breaking in this new partner. His senior year, Charles was again set to be teamed up with Thad, only this time Thad, suffering from a brutal romantic rejection, thought the best thing to do was quit debate and move to the wilderness to live deliberately. After much begging and pleading by Charles, and the other Whitman debaters who had zero interest in debating with Charles, Thad agreed to stick it out for one last year. Despite their eventual successes, this would not be the only time Thad's libido would get in the way of the debate season. It seems that Thad, with his boy-band looks and witty charm, has become quite the object of affection. (editor's note: no evidence has ever been recovered that would indicate that Thad Blank actually displays anything which could be described as "witty charm," or even "personality." however, certain persons, who will not be named, are in possession of what could be described as "semi-naked" photographs of Mr. Blank.) Poor Charles was forced on many occasions to field inquiries from Thad's suitors, several of them describing Thad as "the dreamiest." Girls with actual Thad experience dispute this: one former fling is on record with the statement that she "wouldn't make out with Thad again for $70," even if free beer was involved. Unfortunately, Thad's romantic liaisons and instant messenger flirtations cost him valuable card-cutting time, leaving the bulk of the hard work for Charles. Thad?s libido also cost him precious sleep at tournaments. Thad reported to the team one morning that he awoke in the middle of the night and couldn?t go back to sleep for two hours because he ?couldn?t stop thinking about sex.? Unfortunately, Thad?s tumultuous love life was only one of many obstacles that Whitman BO would need to overcome on their way to fame and fortune. Charles also had to consider that partnering with Thad made the team, if at all possible, slower. BO was also faced with a slight deficit in the ethos category when compared to many of the more charming teams. One anonymous coach (and by ?anonymous coach? we mean Glen Frappier) once said, about Charles and Thad, ?[those guys] couldn?t buy a personality if someone came by door-to-door selling them.? (For the record, Mr. Frappier is an official member of the Whitman BO fan club) Another coach added that BO?s in round antics reminded him of ?scary robots.? But, despite these shortfalls, Charles and Thad would go on to become one of the best teams in the country. We are all proud and amazed at Charles? accomplishments. Top speaker at the NDT, winner of the Dartmouth Round Robin, CEDA Nationals Finalist, NDT Semifinalist. Charles managed do all that plus an unfathomable amount of neatly computerized debate work while also remaining an outstanding student and responding promptly to cite requests. Apart from the awards and trophies, Charles has been a pleasure to work with and coach. Whitman BO has a large fan club not just because of the groupies, but because they always stay friendly and relaxed even under the utmost pressure. We admire Charles for the way he has explicitly promoted his vision of all that is good about traditional policy debate. But we also admire the way he has implicitly promoted a vision of the successful debater as someone who works hard, loves the game, and treats everyone with respect. We were privileged to be his partners and are glad to remain his friends. MSU will be a force to reckoned next year?considering the success they've had in the past, think of what they will be able to do with a coach who cuts good cards! Charles we love you. *Disclaimer: The biographers do not assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, suitability, completeness, humorousness, or usefulness of any of the preceding information. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From enigma790 Wed May 21 00:15:26 2003 From: enigma790 (Thierry T.) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:15:26 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] JOE CARVER Message-ID: Hey Joe can you please email me as soon as possible. Thanks. Thierry Pace Debate _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From aogletree Wed May 21 11:29:26 2003 From: aogletree (Aaron Ogletree) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:29:26 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Fwd: Do Peace Movements Matter? Message-ID: Aaron P. Ogletree Aime Cesaire: One day [found] I myself face to face with a leopard. I lost my head. I ..wounded him. That day I understood, once, and for all, that you don't attack a beast unless you're sure of killing him. (A Season in the Congo) From: portsideMod at netscape.net Reply-To: portside at yahoogroups.com To: portside at yahoogroups.com Subject: Do Peace Movements Matter? Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:07:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.74]) by mc5-f13.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 13 May 2003 21:22:04 -0700 Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2003 04:20:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 14957 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 04:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 04:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 04:20:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2003 04:20:12 -0000 Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 14 May 2003 04:07:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 76849 invoked from network); 14 May 2003 04:07:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 May 2003 04:07:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 May 2003 04:07:52 -0000 Received: from portsideMod at netscape.netby imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id r.f0.86ffbb0 (16227) for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 00:07:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m28.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by air-in02.mx.aol.com (v93.12) with ESMTP id MAILININ23-3f633ec1c1101f1; Wed, 14 May 2003 00:07:44 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Q1OJDRSDidP X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1497214-4185-1052886032-aogletree=hotmail.com at returns.groups.yahoo.com X-eGroups-Return: portsideMod at netscape.net X-Sender: portsideMod at netscape.net X-Apparently-To: portside at yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <69377B56.5A7E3188.5170BEA2 at netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-eGroups-Approved-By: jschaffner2001 via web; 14 May 2003 04:20:10 -0000 Mailing-List: list portside at yahoogroups.com; contact portside-owner at yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list portside at yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Return-Path: sentto-1497214-4185-1052886032-aogletree=hotmail.com at returns.groups.yahoo.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2003 04:22:04.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[5FADBF20:01C319D0] Do Peace Movements Matter? by Felix Kolb and Alicia Swords Published on Monday, May 12, 2003 by CommonDreams.org http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0512-08.htm March 19, 2003 will become a historical date. On this day the Bush Administration began to impose its imperial claim to control the entire Near East through a preventive war of aggression. We should not forget that whatever the final outcome, the war was illegal and unnecessary and grossly violated international law and the UN Charter. Propaganda from the US corporate media was so effective in manipulating the American public that even many opponents of the Iraq war have been surprised that (at least so far) no evidence of weapons of mass destruction was found in Iraq at all. Or, as Susan Wright, a disarmament expert at the University of Michigan was quoted in the British newspaper, the Independent: "This could be the first war in history that was justified largely by an illusion." The disgust and unbounded outrage against the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq made hundreds of thousands of demonstrators protest against the war on the streets of Amman, Berlin, Damascus, Paris and Mexico City, as well as London, Sydney, New York, San Francisco and Washington. While no one wondered about the people in the Arab world who displayed their feeling of impotent rage, the continuing opposition in the US has surprised commentators. In general, one would have expected that the long series of demonstrations and actions in the USA would come to a quick end as soon as the war began. And indeed, opinion polls showed an increase in public support for the war shortly after it started. But unlike past wars, where even most opponents rallied behind the president after the war started, a considerable minority of American people resisted this impulse. Contrary to what many people feel and think these days, the fact that protests continued during the war is a reason for confidence, and is only one of several indicators that the global peace movement, with its unprecedented strength, has had important successes and consequences. Admittedly, the peace movement could not prevent this war from happening, although many of us devoted considerable energy and time to opposing the war for many months. If we compare the peace movement's main goal - preventing this war - with the cruel reality, it seems just natural to conclude that the peace movement failed. Of course President Bush and American corporate media won't do anything to contradict this conclusion, because it is very convenient for them. However, to really understand and appreciate the impact of the peace movement we need to take a different perspective. First, we must imagine how the Iraq conflict would have unfolded without the actions of the peace movement. Second, we must ask what the likely long-term consequences of the recent peace movement will be. Counterfactual reasoning is always difficult, but we feel safe enough to propose several alternative outcomes had there been no strong global peace movement. In the first place, Bush probably would not have attempted to gain a UN mandate at all, possibly precluding the resumption of UN weapons inspections. This process gave the peace movement critical time to continue to organize and mobilize. World-wide rejection of war on Iraq dashed the Bush administration's hopes for gaining international legitimacy by bribing countries to pass a UN resolution for an invasion. The global rejection of war prevented the war resolution from gaining the necessary majority in the Security Council, as the demonstrations on February 15 made absolutely clear. Without the pressure of the German and French peace movements especially, Schr?der and Chirac might have relented and the Iraq War could have been legitimized by a UN mandate, extorted by the US. A similar argument can be made for other important swing vote states on the UN Security Council such as Mexico, Pakistan and Chile. In addition, there may be long-term implications of these protests that we cannot yet measure, but should not underestimate. For emphasis, let's look at historical examples of long-term impacts of peace movements: * The creation of the League of Nations a decade after widespread opposition to World War I. * The U.S.-Soviet strategic nuclear arms reduction negotiations starting in 1970, following worldwide anti-nuclear demonstrations in the late 1950s and early 1960s. * The US "Vietnam syndrome," a reluctance to intervene militarily, after massive protests against the Vietnam war. The current global peace movement has helped significantly to raise the barrier for future military interventions. We hope this can thwart the plans of the neoconservative hard-liners in the White House. At the beginning of April, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw signaled that Britain would have "nothing whatsoever" to do with any military action against Syria or Iran. Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar, faced with a 91% majority of his people opposing the war, is likely to lose next year's elections because of his support for President Bush, and thus probably won't be willing to support another aggression. The peace movement still may not be strong enough to stop the Bush administration from launching its next "preventive" attack against Syria, Iran or North Korea. But international support for subsequent wars will be even smaller than it was this time, further strengthening the peace movement. As the Washington Institute for Political Studies (IPS) has documented, the so- called "Coalition of the Willing" is composed of just 46 of 191 UN member nations - representing 19% of the world's population. Yet even in those countries public opinion was overwhelmingly opposed to the Iraq War. Although we cannot be sure, the most likely next target of the Washington hawks seems to be Syria. Right now US threats could be seen as a strategy to prevent Syria from supporting Arab resistance to a military occupation government in a de facto re-colonized Iraq. But, if the US economy continues to stall, Bush may resort to another "preventive war" as part of his strategy for winning re- election in 2004. In order to be prepared to prevent further wars, it is not enough to recall the peace movement's achievements, we must also ask ourselves why the peace movement wasn't able to prevent the Iraq war and what lessons can be learned from this experience. There is a series of fundamental reasons, which we probably won't be able to change in the short run: - The warmongers did not hesitate to use false evidence to make their case for the war. One of the most shocking examples was the information obtained by the C.I.A. about supposed Iraqi purchases of five hundred tons of uranium oxide from Niger. The faked documents, which the International Atomic Agency later proved to be falsified, were presented to members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee a couple of days before the Senate approved the war resolution. - Instead of asking hard questions, the corporate-owned mass media, with few exceptions, has done everything it could to provide a broad audience for the Bush Administration's propaganda and lies. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman was right in pointing out that American public opinion support for war was largely a consequence of the biased US media. 71% of the American public believes that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks and a majority did not know that none of the hijackers were from Iraq. - When it comes to war, the US doesn't have an opposition party. The Democrats feel that they cannot challenge Bush on national security issues. And indeed they don't have an alternative conception for foreign and national security policies. This has been made worse by the increasing power of the presidency in conducting foreign policy. - Many people are confused about what democracy means and how it is achieved. US foreign policy uses "promoting democracy" as an excuse to intervene to gain control of resources and strategic influence in the Near East. At the same time the US has no problem supporting dictatorships in countries where it suits US interests' as for example in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan. A large segment of the American public is not aware of this hypocrisy and therefore buys into the "promoting democracy" rhetoric. These problems are so deeply rooted in the American political system and the political economy of mass media that only long-term solutions can bring about the necessary fundamental changes. In the long-term, we must work for changes in campaign financing and the electoral system to increase the chances of dissent, to encourage third parties, and to provide realistic alternatives to the "lesser evil" choices provided by the two- party system. For this, we need alternative mainstream news sources. The radio program 'Democracy Now' is great, but too radical to appeal to the American mainstream. The idea of MoveOn Media Corps to hold mass media accountable to fair reporting and basic journalist standards is important, but won't transform US news media in the ways needed. We need more thinktanks and more coherent conceptions of foreign policy to counter the neoconservative elites and to convince the American public that "promoting democracy" does not justify killing innocent people. These long-term strategies are necessary, but in the current situation we also need more short- term approaches. We offer the following list of ideas to begin debate: * Be cautious with civil disobedience. There is no doubt that civil disobedience to protest against an illegal war is morally legitimate and sometimes strategically necessary. However, since the vast majority of the American public supports the war, civil disobedience can alienate potential supporters of our cause. * Have a clear message. Even when the peace movement succeeds in getting public attention on the local, national or international level, it is self- defeating to try to convey a long and complex message. Linking up all sorts of grievances with the call for peace makes it possible for the media to portray the movement as having no clear message. * Start to work on a positive agenda. In the long run it is not enough to be against war. The peace movement must offer concrete ways to resolve conflicts in a non-violent manner even as it addresses the underlying causes of wars. * Reach across the divides. War has the potential to unite groups that have traditionally been divided in the US. Because war only benefits a small elite, there is great potential to build a strong movement across distance, race, class and ethnicity. One strategy might be to support a "Peace Summer," to educate people and build popular resistance to war. For example, the Kensington Welfare Rights Union is calling for a Poor People's March for Economic Human Rights this summer to continue the late Martin Luther King's efforts to build a united movement for peace and economic justice. * Be Early. An achievement of the recent peace protests is that they started and reached a considerable momentum long before the war started. Next time we must be even earlier. We may gain the greatest leverage in the US if we begin to lobby Congress now about opposing new war resolutions. * Be the media. The corporate media is concentrated in 3 major networks which are owned by many of the same corporations that profit from wars. The current movement has taken advantage of the Internet, through listservs and Indymedia, but our alternative media must reach a mass public, not just those who have easy computer access. Therefore more traditional techniques of leafleting and door- to-door canvassing might be more effective for reaching people we could not reach in the past. * Be international. Of all the demonstrations the February 15th ones had the greatest impact, not only because of the sheer number of demonstrators, but also because demonstrations were taking place at more than 600 cities all over the world. * Don't forget the Iraqi people. The peace movement should work very hard to prevent the US from exercising colonial power in Iraq by imposing a puppet regime. American and British forces should be replaced immediately by a UN peace- keeping mission to oversee the formation of Iraqi self- government in agreement with neighboring countries, especially Syria, Iran and Turkey. Most urgently, the Bush administration must be prevented from turning Iraq into its own economic fiefdom: fully privatized, foreign-owned and open for business. It would be outrageous if key economic decisions were made by the occupying forces before the Iraqi people have the opportunity to choose their own government. * Recognize the emotional work we have to do: We need to recognize the importance of countering the hopelessness and despair that may from time to time affect those committed to working for peace as a result of the constant propaganda barrage from the mainstream media. It is a crucial part of the work of our movement to bring people together, to help them notice that they are not alone, to listen to each others' fears and doubts, and to support each other in thinking clearly about how we can work together. [Felix Kolb (fk34 at cornell.edu) is a visiting fellow at the Institute for European Studies at Cornell University and working on his dissertation on the policy outcomes of social movements. Alicia Swords is a PhD student in Development Sociology at Cornell University studying learning among social movements in Mexico and in the Americas.] __________________________________________________________________ Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days! http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 portside (the left side in nautical parlance) is a news, discussion and debate service of the Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism. It aims to provide varied material of interest to people on the left. Post : mail to 'portside at yahoogroups.com' Subscribe : mail to 'portside-subscribe at yahoogroups.com' Unsubscribe : mail to 'portside-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com' Faq : www.portside.org List owner : portside-owner at yahoogroups.com Web address : Digest mode : visit Web site Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From julianvgagnon Tue May 20 14:24:48 2003 From: julianvgagnon (Julian Gagnon) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] UF DEBATE?! Message-ID: <2687317.1053458688435.JavaMail.julianvgagnon@gomailjtp03> lookin for frank or anyone who works with the uf program jvg ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com From privethedge Wed May 21 12:00:04 2003 From: privethedge (Duane Hyland) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] Fwd: Do Peace Movements Matter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521170004.35181.qmail@web10007.mail.yahoo.com> I didn't read this anti US blather very much, but here's something that stuck out: "The creation of the League of Nations a decade after widespread opposition to World War I. " Right..a League that was so morribund and useless, so committed to peace, that while the Italians were raping Ethiopia..both figuratively and literally..they turned their backs on it. Yeah, the League of Nations..what a sterling example. Meanwhile, what was the peace movement doing while Sadaam killed millions of his own? When Pot did the same? When Stalin did the same (Oh, I know they sent Duranty out from the Times so he could lie about Stalin)? When Mao did likewise? When Amin followed suit? Where was your precious peace movement? In Rwanda? Bosnia? Peace is a nice concept, but were dealing with a different enemy now. One not constrained by bordes, or the rules of nations. We are dealing with people who think nothing of hijacking jets and crashing them into office buildings, who think nothing about going into Pizza shops and blowing themselves up. These are people that do not care about peace, they only care about leaving you in pieces. You naive if u think the movement is going to solve that. Duane "You may be whatever you resolve to be." Thomas J. Jackson "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he (or she) proposes to pay off with your money." "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rolling thru Paris with a German Flag on it." David Letterman "If you're in a peace march and the guy next to you has a sign that says 'Bush is Hitler,' forget the peace thing for a second and beat his [expletive]" Dennis Miller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/505aa80a/attachment.htm From tejinder Wed May 21 12:48:42 2003 From: tejinder (Tejinder Singh) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:48:42 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] Northwestern Debaters in the News Message-ID: <001c01c31fc1$3c108290$0401a8c0@Tejinder> Andrew Silverman alerted me to an article in today's Chicago Tribune on our beloved friends from Northwestern. If you have Lexis access...do a search for "Garen w/10 vibrates" and you should find gold. Otherwise, the modest title of the thing is: "Arguably, the best; The winningest school in the history of college debating, NU did it again this year. How did they become the 'borgs' of polemics?" and my favorite quote is: "Don't debate these guys in a dark alley." Good times... Tejinder -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/323f9be2/attachment.html From let_the_american_empire_burn Wed May 21 12:59:08 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:59:08 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] ... hacks on right and left (for duaney-poo and aaron) Message-ID: Felix Kolb and Alicia Swords write: "March 19, 2003 will become a historical date. On this day the Bush Administration began to impose its imperial claim to control the entire Near East through a preventive war of aggression. We should not forget that whatever the final outcome, the war was illegal and unnecessary and grossly violated international law and the UN Charter. Propaganda from the US corporate media was so effective in manipulating the American public that even many opponents of the Iraq war have been surprised that (at least so far) no evidence of weapons of mass destruction was found in Iraq at all. Or, as Susan Wright, a disarmament expert at the University of Michigan was quoted in the British newspaper, the Independent: "This could be the first war in history that was justified largely by an illusion."" first, this is historically inaccurate - many, many wars have been underwritten on the lies of political elites. take, for instance, what's called 'the spanish-american war': an american ship is docked at a cuban harbor and mysteriously explodes (looking back, it was probably an accident, although some historians suggest it was a manufactured incident) at the same time as the usa is looking for an excuse to take several islands (crucial to naval dominance) away from colonial spain - so hearst papers propagated the falsity that spain attacked an american ship without provocation. and it worked. within weeks americans hated the spanish, and an entire cottage industry was dedicated to detailing every humyn rights abuse that spain had ever committed against its colonies. (the only real difference is that then the question of imperialism was faced openly - there was an actual debate in congress about whether the usa should strive to be an empire and there was a potent 'anti-imperialist league' of which business leaders like andrew carnegie and writers like mark twain were an integral part.) but to make a long story short, we've been down this road before, and this imperial legacy is very helpful when assessing today's relations to cuba (guantanamo bay specifically) and the phillipenes. second, i agree with Duane Hyland that the United Nations, like the League of Nations before it, is a joke, though perhaps for different reasons: a., because its the united NATIONS, i.e. still subservient to the nationalism which produces warfare, and b., because it is an owned subsidary of Western-styled global corporatism - the fact that a surprising act of French unilateralism (in conjunction with massive popular support throughout the world, even in 'allied' countries like the UK) held up the UN war-path only proves the point - Syria's objection, for instance, wouldn't have meant crap, and there was a very tense struggle both within the imperial administration and within the Western elites about what to do about fuckwit Hussien and the massive oil-reserves which he'd taken hostage. but again, Duane doesn't realize what he's saying when he rejects international law with typical imperialist arrogance - the three geopolitical alternatives are as follows: internationalism, imperialism, and terrorism. once we agree that in the face of american hegemony, international law is a humorous sham, then the only other alternative to imperialism is terrorism. this is why i publicly advocate terrorism, not because i'm 'anti-american' or any other such idiocy, but because i agree with a grand anti-imperial tradition of fine americans (thomas paine, james madison, henry david thoreau, mark twain, m.l.k., etc.) and like those americans who fought for their liberation from the british empire, often in gruesome and atrocious ways, i believe that rogue regimes like the modern-day american empire do not understand anything but force (two heroes worth mentioning here: john brown and nat turner). the international spectre of terrorism, supported principally by the transnational consciousness of islam, is the last best hope for humynkind, if we are to overcome the administred life of domesticated, comfortable simpletons that is rapidly taking over the world. .k p.s. dipshit Duane writes: "Meanwhile, what was the peace movement doing while Sadaam killed millions of his own?" - in their defense, they weren't shaking hands with him for press photos, nor were they assisting him militarily, nor were they authorizing the sale of components necessary for chemical weapons, nor were they pledging support to resistance movements and then betraying them as they died in the desert, nor were bombing civilians in droves. "Where was your precious peace movement? In Rwanda? Bosnia?" - the usa strong-armed the un into removing soldiers in rwanda (who wanted to stay there and do what they could) on the logic that if you get even slightly involved in a genocidal situation that you'll have to become totally involved: very compassionate, eh? and because president clinton could lose even one american life in kosovo, he relied on bombing raids that killed hundreds of innocent people unnecessarily - it wasn't the peace movement on his back, it was the monica lewinsky scandal and republican criticisms of his draft-dodging. and if i recall correcting, one of bush's only intelligible pre-campaign statements on the subject of kosovo was that the usa shouldn't get involved and should stay out of the nation-building business. what makes bush such a successful lying hypocrite is that he's too dumb to know when he's contradicting himself. Peace is a nice concept, but were dealing with a different enemy now. One not constrained by bordes, or the rules of nations. We are dealing with people who think nothing of hijacking jets and crashing them into office buildings, who think nothing about going into Pizza shops and blowing themselves up. These are people that do not care about peace, they only care about leaving you in pieces. You naive if u think the movement is going to solve that. Duane _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From QLTiersky Wed May 21 14:18:19 2003 From: QLTiersky (QLTiersky at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:18:19 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Northwestern in the news Message-ID: <2BD46FDD.28EE0C3A.0257AA48@aol.com> The article can also be found at the Chicago Tribune website. http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0305210084may21,1,698747.story You need to register to read it, but registration's free and very fast. From goof_dummy Wed May 21 14:54:46 2003 From: goof_dummy (goof garen) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:54:46 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Northwestern Debaters in the News Message-ID: Hey, it's not the Contra Costa Times or anything, but we'll take it. Some more interesting search terms: "young men" w/5 "handsome" w/10 "firm" "Garen" w/10 "oblivious" "Morales" w/20 "dearth of women" goof _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From j-lux Wed May 21 15:08:15 2003 From: j-lux (j-lux at northwestern.edu) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:08:15 CDT Subject: [eDebate] Northwestern Debaters in the News Message-ID: <200305212008.h4LK8Rco018387@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/b169bb52/attachment.pot From kendog_3 Wed May 21 15:14:10 2003 From: kendog_3 (kenny hanson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 20:14:10 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Looking for some treaty help Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/45101ac4/attachment.html From stannardmatt Wed May 21 16:59:13 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:59:13 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Wyoming Debate Cooperative Update Message-ID: Hello. A very early, primordial list here--I wanted to let folks know that I have heard from the following schools planning on sending students, coaches, or both, to our policy debate cooperative, which runs August 3-17: Emporia Macalester Mercer Albertson Weber and, of course, Wyoming If your school is not on this list, but you want it to be, please email me. stannard _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Alexander.H.Berger.02 Wed May 21 18:22:28 2003 From: Alexander.H.Berger.02 (Alexander H. Berger 02) Date: 21 May 2003 19:22:28 EDT Subject: [eDebate] contact info for coaches Message-ID: <10414243@horton.Dartmouth.ORG> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/f454224a/attachment.pot From Alexander.H.Berger.02 Wed May 21 19:52:19 2003 From: Alexander.H.Berger.02 (Alexander H. Berger 02) Date: 21 May 2003 20:52:19 EDT Subject: [eDebate] re: contact info for coaches Message-ID: <10416852@horton.Dartmouth.ORG> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/a1501411/attachment.asc From mardigras23 Wed May 21 22:53:25 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 03:53:25 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #2- Goof Garen Message-ID: Goof received 123 points- one fifth place, four fourth place, nine third place, eight second place, and eleven first place votes. Ace is supposedly writing Goof's bio, but hasn't e-mailed it to me yet. When he does, I will post it. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rajdebate Wed May 21 23:28:28 2003 From: rajdebate (Raja Gaddipati) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:28:28 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Northwestern Debaters in the News Message-ID: Chicago Tribune: "People say I turn it on and off," says Tristan Morales, 19, with a knowing little smile. And when he's on, says his friend Geoff Garen, 22, he's on fire: "He actually vibrates with intensity." Ummm, are they talking about debate.... Chicago Tribune: NU's rep for acing debates is what lured Morales, a sophomore from San Antonio to the school. "I had to pick between debate and baseball" when it came time to focus for college, he says, and when he picked debate, NU was a natural. Debate and baseball?!?!? Yeah and I had to pick between Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera. ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030522/257de3cc/attachment.htm From j-lux Wed May 21 23:28:31 2003 From: j-lux (j-lux at northwestern.edu) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:28:31 CDT Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #2 - Not Geoff Garen Message-ID: <200305220428.h4M4Shri007568@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030521/dca9090b/attachment.asc From Adam.C.Garen Thu May 22 00:07:57 2003 From: Adam.C.Garen (Adam C. Garen) Date: 22 May 2003 01:07:57 EDT Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #2-Goof Garen Message-ID: <87590493@newdonner.Dartmouth.EDU> As all who know me can testify, I often have problems with deadlines and time zones. Well, I dealt with the deadline problem on Goof's bio, but I didn't deal well with the time zone issue. Anyway, here it is. We call this debater ?Goof? because he likes to poop his pants. Most of you have never seen the worst of it, but, when Goof was little, he used to let it go whenever he felt like it. ?I used to clean that boy?s backside nine, maybe ten times a day,? said Ma Garen. ?Poop was something of a joke to him from an early age. After he shat himself, he?d come up to me with this big smile on his face, point at his little bottom, and say, ?I goofed.? It got to the point that we just started calling him ?Goof.?? Over time, Goof?s inability to control his sphincter turned into a source of embarrassment. ?It got really bad whenever he wanted something,? continued Ma Garen. ?He?s the only child I ever had who used to beg for stuff in the stores?just unmercifully. Sometimes, his face would turn red, and he?d get this sheepish look on his face. At that point I knew that I?d have to wipe his ass again. Still, I didn?t want to make him feel too bad, so I?d just crouch down to his height, run my hand through is hair, and say, ?Did you goof?? He?d kind of nod his head and start crying a little because he felt bad. So, I?d take him to the bathroom, lay him down, and start cleaning up his mess. And it still happens, only he?s so tall now that I can just clean his butt while he?s standing up. You may wonder what place this anecdote has in a DCA biography. I?ll establish my link arguments here: 1) Ass Wiggle. Goof had a tendency to shake his ass back and forth while he spoke. Although ostensibly designed to attract the ladies, this maneuver actually involves squeezing his ass-cheeks together to prevent the poo-poo from coming out. Sources have traced this practice back to Kindergarten teacher Sue Hayes. When asked to comment, Hayes said, ?Yeah, I taught him that. Goof?s goofs got to be such a problem in class, and I always ended up cleaning them up. So, I dragged him into the bathroom one day, took off my pants, and showed him how easy it is to tighten one?s rear end. Of course, the administration didn?t approve, but it really helped Goof out socially. I wonder if he?s realized how beneficial it is in anal sex.? 2) Forehead Movements. Goof used to move his eyebrows and wrinkle his forehead ferociously when he debated. Partner Tristan Morales said, ?I used to think that was his debate face. Then we started debating together. After his first speech, he sat down and said, ?I really goofed up there.? He?d given a good speech, so I didn?t understand what he meant. Then I smelled something foul, and I realized his debater face was really his crapper face.? 3) Wild Gesticulations. Many have speculated about Goof?s hand motions in debates. Persuasive gestures? Games of patty-cake? Seig-Heils? ?Actually,? Goof said, ?my shit?s so powerful sometimes that I need to reach around for something to grab onto. The gestures never meant anything except that I?d soiled myself. They had more to do with the food served at the tournament than the arguments I was making.? 4) Large Ass. ?I knew Goof really wanted to win debates,? said Ma Garen. ?I also knew that he couldn?t help himself when he really wanted something. So, I got him some extra-large diapers to wear at tournaments. They seemed to do the trick.? 5) Debate Idols. Several years ago, Goof picked Steve Donald as his mentor in debate. When asked about their bond, Donald explained, ?Back when I was getting so much crap for crapping my pants, this guy named Goof came up to me and told me how much he admired my ability to just let it go in debates. I had no idea who he was or what he was talking about until he told me that I?d joined David Harkin on his list of debate heroes.? 6) The Caca Debate. At this past year?s Run for the Roses, Dartmouth LT beat Northwestern GM on an argument that centered around Goof?s anal retentive character. Critic Bill Shanahan commented as follows: ?When I got to the end of my decision and said, ?Shit returns eternally,? Goof looked at me and said, ?Don?t I know it.? Then he got a strangely sheepish look on his face and ran down the hallway. I never could make sense of that.? 7) The Globe D.A. One could paraphrase Goof?s favorite argument from the past year as follows: There?s so much shit in the world, and I really can?t do anything about most of it. Therefore, I should concentrate on controlling my own shit because my shit has such an impact on those around me. ?Goof came to me with this argument at the beginning of the year,? said Coach Brian McBride. ?When he told me that he really believed it, I knew what he was talking about. I would have done anything to get him to put his philosophy into practice.? From tmor103178 Thu May 22 00:56:59 2003 From: tmor103178 (Tristan Morales) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:56:59 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #2-Goof Garen Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030522/e3bb4cec/attachment.htm From stannardmatt Thu May 22 01:08:32 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:08:32 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] WDC and Wyo tournament updates Message-ID: First, add Pace and Denver U. to the list of policy cooperative participants. Second, many inquiries about our tournament dates. We've had to juggle some things around because we want to step on as few toes as possible, so pending the ability to get decent hotel blocks, we'll run two different tournaments on two different weekends. Both of those tournaments will be two-day affairs with REDUCED fees and as much hospitality as we can afford. Consider the following information almost official, and look for our invitations in the next few days. We'll host a parliamentary and individual events tournament September 20 and 21. We'll host an NDT/CEDA tournament October 11 and 12. stannard _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bariljm Thu May 22 11:26:45 2003 From: bariljm (Jennifer Kenney) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:26:45 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Re: do Peace Movements Matter (Duane Hyland) References: <20030522160002.16100.76101.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <00e301c3207e$f0fd8320$7209bc3f@HAL9000> Isn't it important to consider, even for a hawk, the question of whether warlike action is efficacious in this (or any other) circumstance? The US has taken Baghdad, but I think it behooves us to remember that the victor in a war is not the one who kills the most people or takes the most land - the winner is the one who gets to decide when the war ends, and under what circumstances. It is not clear at present that the United States has, in that sense, won. It is equally unclear whether the conquest of Iraq brought us closer to, or pushed us further away from that goal. I think the point made in the quote at the beginning of the article was a very valid one: escalation may or may not ensure victory, but it certainly does guarantee escalation. Jennifer Baril Kenney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030522/2dbcbcec/attachment.html From stannardmatt Thu May 22 12:33:55 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:33:55 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] WDC update Message-ID: Just because it looks a lot bigger than yesterday's list, the following schools will have coaches, competitors, or both at the cooperative: University of Rochester Denver University Weber State University Emporia University Macalester College Pace University Mercer University Albertson College University of Wyoming Please let me know if you want to add your school, or if you have other questions. stannard _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mmk_savant Thu May 22 13:04:24 2003 From: mmk_savant (Michael Korcok) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:04:24 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] ans Kenney Message-ID: while it might be unclear whether or not the US "won" in Iraq in the more or less irrelevant sense mentioned, it IS clear that the US "won" in very many other senses. and "won" convincingly and spectacularly. the 13 year- old economic sanctions against Iraq were lifted today. unanimous vote at the UN. the US wins. if the peace movement had gotten their way, Saddam and Sons would still be in power committing atrocities against 25 million Iraqi slaves. what wonderful peeps, those peace activists. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/22/sprj.irq.main/index.html save your soul, come to terms with being horribly wrong, and have a nice day, Michael Korcok "This is what you wanted to hear, so why Did you think of listening to something else? We are all talkers It is true, but underneath the talk lies The moving and not wanting to be moved, the loose Meaning, untidy and simple like a threshing floor." John Ashbery: "Soonest Mended." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030522/ba549853/attachment.htm From kcumming Thu May 22 13:10:53 2003 From: kcumming (Cummings, Kevin) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:10:53 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Regis Job Opening Message-ID: <8EBC4161BB42D511977F00508B6D7C36717167@its39.regis.edu> The Communication Department at Regis University in Denver, Colorado is seeking qualified applicants for a full-time position as Director of Forensics beginning Fall 2003. Ph.D. is preferred; will consider M.A. plus experience in coaching debate for Instructor appointment. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and level of experience. The successful applicant will be able to teach departmental offerings in communication. The position responsibilities include coaching and traveling with the debate team and teaching two courses each semester in the department. Review of applicants will begin immediately and continue until position is filled. Send letter of application, vita, and three letters of reference to Dr. Janellen Hill, Chair, Communication Department, E-24 Regis University, 3333 Regis Blvd., Denver, CO 80221 or email to jhill at regis.edu. From kcumming Thu May 22 13:13:49 2003 From: kcumming (Cummings, Kevin) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:13:49 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] Regis Job Opening Message-ID: <8EBC4161BB42D511977F00508B6D7C36717168@its39.regis.edu> The Communication Department at Regis University in Denver, Colorado is seeking qualified applicants for a full-time position as Director of Forensics beginning Fall 2003. Ph.D. is preferred; will consider M.A. plus experience in coaching debate for Instructor appointment. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and level of experience. The successful applicant will be able to teach departmental offerings in communication. The position responsibilities include coaching and traveling with the debate team and teaching two courses each semester in the department. Review of applicants will begin immediately and continue until position is filled. Send letter of application, vita, and three letters of reference to Dr. Janellen Hill, Chair, Communication Department, E-24 Regis University, 3333 Regis Blvd., Denver, CO 80221 or email to jhill at regis.edu. From frappier Thu May 22 14:04:40 2003 From: frappier (Frappier, Glen) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:04:40 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] 2005 NDT @ Gonzaga Message-ID: <65D733713D1C6944B4797D83F5470693476A4D@gem.gonzaga.edu> Many of you are already aware of this, but for those who are not, the NDT Board of Trustees and the NDT Committee have approved our bid to host the 2005 NDT, March 25-28 at Gonzaga. We are looking forward to hosting the event and bringing everyone to the Northwest for the NDT. On another note, I will post the invite for our September tournament soon. We got quite a few commitments from schools around the country and we're expecting a large turnout. The hospitality at this tournament will be off the charts...anyone who knows Slusher and I can tell you that I'm not exaggerating when I say that we will do it right. Glen Frappier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030522/3e1e9f76/attachment.html From let_the_american_empire_burn Thu May 22 14:32:05 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:32:05 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] oh korcoky Message-ID: korcok: "while it might be unclear whether or not the US "won" in Iraq in the more or less irrelevant sense mentioned, it IS clear that the US "won" in very many other senses. and "won" convincingly and spectacularly. the 13 year- old economic sanctions against Iraq were lifted today. unanimous vote at the UN. the US wins. if the peace movement had gotten their way, Saddam and Sons would still be in power committing atrocities against 25 million Iraqi slaves. what wonderful peeps, those peace activists. ... save your soul, come to terms with being horribly wrong, and have a nice day, " well i'm not going to defend naive pacifists or internationalists, but to imply that anyone assumed the usa couldn't triumph in a war against iraq is farcical - there was little to no populist support for saddam's brutal regime (i.e. no viet cong) and the empire has spent (and continues to spend) trillions upon trillions of dollars on military supremacy. no, what's been all lost is the founding ideal that amerika would be a republic, not 'the world's dictatress' (to use john quincy adam's phrase, i believe). moreover, that you defend 13-years of civilian-massacring sanctions, which killed hundreds of thousands of iraqis, and now pretend to give half a shit about the welfare of the iraqi people is the height of hypocritical lunacy. this was a business venture, pure and simple, which empires are prone to engage in from time to time (please review the brits intervention in iraq earlier in the last century), and 'national security' and/or 'iraqi liberation' were merely the typical propaganda-tools all empires use to keep the domestic populace waving their country's flags. don't pretend not to notice the obvious; don't lie to yourself: if you're a conservative, then act like one, be a fucking realist, and quit with the liberal drivel. and when you or your fellow americans die in flames like the thousands of afghani and iraqi innocents, don't act flaberghasted or moralistically outraged. you too will be just another statistic. have a nice day. .k _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From richarddebate Thu May 22 16:36:27 2003 From: richarddebate (Rich debate) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] andrew leong In-Reply-To: <20030522160002.16100.76101.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <20030522213627.67907.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> having set in rounds and listened to andrew debate and then being fortunate enough to run into him at ndt i consider myself a blessed man. in one sentence...listening to him debate is like hearing a symphony perform a song that moves you to tears. good job andrew __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From mardigras23 Thu May 22 17:11:42 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:11:42 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Debater #1- Calum Matheson Message-ID: Calum Lister ?Justify-Your-Existence-You-Have-5-Seconds-Go?Time? Matheson by Dennis ?i-dunno-who-he-is-ask-Repko? Lukasik Everyone already knows Calum. The fact that Aaron could not find anyone to write Calum?s biography should not be terribly surprising to the members of this list. Last year, Tejinder Singh?s well done biography on their head-to-head match ups, as well as their long standing friendship was not only touching and funny, but really gay (and by gay, I mean sex with men in an effeminate manner, not the popular connotation of happy or jubilant). I had a lot of really great ideas about how to make this the standard by which all DCA?s would be forever measured; these included ? an entire biography of Joe Siegmann w/o mention of Calum (Joe vetoed, Will?s a dick); a full essay on Calum and Greta?s clandestine and passionate love affair (again my life was threatened more than an Transgendered Black Handicapped Islamist in Carrollton, GA); in the end I settled on rupturing the patriarchy by writing this whole thing ass-naked (while furiously masturbating to a few of Jonah?s choice recommendations, www.granniesandfatties.com). Regardless, this is an attempt to make your read not only pleasurable but uneasily erotic (like the Olsen Twins or Atreyu from The NeverEnding Story). I can no longer recall the first time I met Calum, nor can I recant some of the fantastic escapades we?ve had through the last 7 years I?ve known him (and not because I am prohibited for legal reasons, but rather because I can no longer recall these events ? prolly cuz they were prohibited for legal reasons). Much like Man?s First Walk on the Moon and Nanotechnology, Calum Matheson has claimed to have invented the Story Critique and The Russian Relations Disadvantage (or, in his words ?perfected it?). The fact that Calum is so massively popular among both the conservative debating-war-all-the-time-is-fucking-sweet and liberal plans-are-unnecessary-cuz-they-make-debate-fun-and-not-sad communities demand for inside information on Calum?s personal life a hot commodity. I?ve decided to leak some of these precious nuggets to the debate community: 1. Calum Matheson is actually Scottish ? Although highly secretive about his shameful racial origin, I have been able to obtain this information from an anecdote/insult/boast/ I overheard Calum relaying at the highly exclusive every bar at every tournament over the last 4 years. 2. Calum Matheson formerly had long hair ? No, seriously. And it made him look like that dude from the movie Powder with a mullet. Thank god some well-placed references to Vlad Putin?s current haircut (see number 5) were enough to fix that fashion genocide. 3. Calum Matheson has a penchant for Alcohol ? Despite the puritanical image Calum projects ?At the Show? (as Calum never has called it), he will on rare occasion (such as dusk) imbibe the odd nightcap. It has been said that Calum?s preferred beverage is Guinness (however this information is less reliable as the source was a drunk individual urinating on a sleeping individual resembling Michael J Fox and Harry Potter?s love child) n1. 4. Calum Matheson doesn?t like Everyone ? His beaming smile and cheery disposition has prompted many a spectator of Calum?s rounds to comment, ?Why that lad sure has a beaming smile and cheery disposition, I?m sure somewhere, buried deeply, under years of painful repression, beneath those barbed evil questions and cutting laugh-but-you-don?t-want-to-cuz-your-laughing-right-in-front-of-the-dude sarcastic slams, just below the huge chip on his shoulder and above his pain in the ass racial envy.? 5. Calum Matheson fancies Russia ? Although communism doesn?t hold all the keys to Calum?s political philosophy, Calum has let slip once or twice over a brandy or 12 Guinness? that he wouldn?t be opposed to class warfare, preferably with nuclear weapons aimed at the North Shore Suburbs of Illinois or sharp pointy sticks (he is indecisive on this). Calum is like most every American Boy, who after cracking his first beer in the morning salutes his bronze bust of Lenin (V.I. Lenin, Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov ? and hand to God, this boy has a fucking bust of Lenin). And also like every red-blooded American, Calum Matheson knows every single word, in Russian, of the U.S.S.R?s national anthem?. I mean, fuck dude, check Lee Harvey?s Green Card, I?m not sure this Pinko was even eligible for the NDT. Here is the spot where I go on about how good Calum was as a debater, and how unfucking-real it is to obtain a string of top speaker awards the way Calum has this year. There is no way I can do justice to his accomplishments: Calum attended 10 tournaments ? he was the top speaker 7 times, he was never lower than 3. MSU MS also was more than just a pair of pretty (fucking scary) faces; they owned some of you mo?fuggers ? example: Whitman BO ? did y?all EVER beat MS? Northwestern GL? (insert annoying post-win Northwestern clap here, seriously, how fucking lame is that?). MSU SS? You got ROCKED by MS in the quarters of the NDT?wunderkinds, my ass. Of course, the more than worthy exception to this rule is Michigan FO, a team that apparently decided to stop paying their Crush-Calum-&-Joe-bill this past April. Summer 2002 - Calum was on track to have a senior year unrivaled by any debater previous to himself. Mike Eber put a stop to that by giving Calum his laptop ? a rather ingenious device that allowed Calum to download old Nintendo games from the internet, and play them, well?just about anywhere. *a quick aside: C and me were talkin ?bout how great it is to download video games from the internet, and how it was too bad that we only could get NES games but not Super Nintendo games --- it was a full ten minutes into this discussion before we realized that 1 gigahertz and 20 gigabytes of calculating prowess might just have the capacity to run 16bit Super Nintendo games (fully double the power of regular Nintendo) and still manage to do other things, like run counterforce targeting schemes of Minnesota (demonstrating even the smartest of people can be total mongos on occasion). The laptop was Calum?s One Ring and the terrible trade off was evident, productivity hit a slide like Repko?s decent into insanity ? fast at first, then gaining speed, until you wind up sitting in a bare apartment wearing only Buffy Underoos with a Pirate hat on, combing the fake hair, taking care of personal ?Biz-ness? and eating Riblets (made of soy, which everyone knows is code for people). The laptop didn?t completely obliterate CLM?s work ethic, though, and he put out many entirely unusable files that read like the Unabomber?s Diary. Matheson?s files remind me of Anne Heche - they come out, but in a manner that leaves you entirely unsure of what you are supposed to do with that information. Example: critical pre-harvardism, a critique file written by Calum including such gems as Nuclear Imagery good and anti-abortionists = apocalypse?these cards were consecutive in the section titled ?don?t read.? Many of CLM?s files include sections such as ?long cards? or ?onto no squiggle dash.? Calum is a true friend of mine and it has been one of the greatest thrills of my life being along for the ride his senior year. He has a determination and drive that isn?t out on his sleeve as an advertisement, and a kindness about him that is so immense you can tell it really bothers him after he makes one of the freshmen cry, again. I?d like to join everyone (well not everyone, but, like, all the cool people) in congratulating Calum on a fantastic career and wish him an even more successful future. Before I sever more relationships here than Steve Mancuso on ecstasy; I?d like to bid adieu to all the great people I?ve met in this activity ? especially Goof Garen (for suggesting the mancuso joke, which I personally thought went too far) n2. Farewell, Alison Woidan-Eber MSU Debate n1. worth noting, after hearing this aloud, Calum?s first response was verbatim ?OH Yeah, I need a beer? and concluded with ?I hate playing this game where I try and remember back to when the last time I didn?t have a beer was. [long pause] It was two days ago? no, wait, three days?wait?? n2. seriously, I am never going to be seen by 99% of you again ? don?t waste your breath getting in a huff about this ? Calum didn?t write it, and I?m history like Michael Morales? singing career. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mardigras23 Thu May 22 17:53:01 2003 From: mardigras23 (Aaron Kall) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:53:01 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Awards Show Message-ID: Welcome to the Debater's Choice Awards! This year, we received 59 ballots. Thanks go out to everyone who voted. And for those that dislike us, we love you, too. I apologize in advance for the DCA Awards Show not being as funny this year- I am on my way out the door to the airport and I had to send this out before I left. So, let's get to the awards. There were a few awards that weren?t categories per se, but people still received votes: Least Funny Debater- Jim Lux Biggest Fort Hays Hack- Mike Hester Shortest Debater- Andrew Leong Biggest Debate Dork(besides myself for doing this DCA thing)- Casey Kelly, for filling out a complete DCA ballot even though he?s not eligible to vote To all those people who voted for themselves and especially to those who voted for themselves while speaking in the third person- I hope you won. Aaron #1- The Top Ten Here's a recap of the top ten: 10- Jonah Feldman, Michigan 10- Raja Gaddipati, Northwestern 9- Nate Gorelick, NYU 8- Josh Lynn, Emory 7- Andrew Leong, Dartmouth 6- Greta Stahl, MSU 5- Scott Phillips, Emory 4- Tejinder Singh, Berkeley 3- Charles Olney, Whitman 2- Goof Garen, Northwestern 1- Calum Matheson, MSU Thanks to everyone who wrote the bios. #2- Best Novice Not many people responded to this category, but those who did responded with answers like Vlad V. and Carlos from Vermont. I found it funny that few people even knew the names of any novices, but everyone had an opinion on what the best squad for novices was. There was a tie for Best Novice between Melissa Hurter(school unknown- Catholic maybe?) and David Coons from Wake Forest. Melissa and David each had 9 points. Third place goes to Carlos from Vermont with 6 points. Best Answer- ?I don?t know any novices, but I wish I did.? #3 - Best 2A of the Year Calum Matheson was voted best 2A of the year and received 18 points. Tejinder Singh was second place with 9 votes. Josh Lynn and Tristan Morales tied for 3rd place with 4 points. #4 - Best 2N of the Year Good Garen was voted best 2N of the year and received 14 points. Calum Matheson was second with 11 points and Scott Phillips was 3rd place with 8 votes. #5 - Best 1N of the Year Greta Stahl was voted best 1N of the year and received 11 points. Stacey Nathan was second with 10 points and Tristan Morales was third with 5 points. #6 - Best 1A of the Year Scott Phillips was voted best 1A of the year and received 13 points. Dan Shalmon was second with 7 points and Jonah Feldman was third with 6 points. #7 - Speediest Debater Scott Phillips was voted speediest master debater of the year and received 28 points. Rashad Evans was second place with 8 points and Kacey Wolmer was third with 4 points. # 8 - Most Comprehensible Calum Matheson was voted most comprehensible and received 8 points. Ben Thorpe was second with 7 points and Charles Olney was third with 6 points. # 9 - Best Team Against Kritiks Whitman BO was voted the best team against kritiks and received 16 points. There was a tie for second place between Dartmouth LT and Northwestern GM, who both received 10 points. Best Answer- ?MSU SS because their answers and evidence were terrible, but they always won. You?ve got to respect that.? #10 - Best Team Running Kritiks Northwestern GM was voted best team running kritiks and received 29 points. There was a tie for second between Dartmouth LT and NYU GG, who both received 8 points. #11- Best Team on the Aff MSU SS was voted best team on the Aff. and received 14 points. Northwestern GM was second with 8 points and Georgia PR was third with 6 points. #12 - Best Team on the Neg Northwestern GM was voted best team on the Neg. and received 13 points. Emory LP was second and received 10 points. There was a tie for third between Whitman BO and Berkeley NS, who both received 6 points. #13 - Best Overall Debate Tournament Excluding NDT/CEDA Nationals Wake Forest was voted to have the best overall tournament and received 23 points. Northwestern was second with 13 points. There was a tie for third between Harvard and West Georgia, who both received 5 points. #14- Best Tournament Hospitality Harvard was voted to have the best tournament hospitality and received 18 points. West Georgia was second with 7 points and Wake Forest was third with 6 points. #15 - Tournament with the best awards Northwestern and Harvard were voted to be the debate tournament with the best awards and tied for first place with 10 points. The NDT was third place and received 8 votes. ?Masks are cool? was the most commonly cited reason for why people liked the Harvard awards. People must have forgot that Northwestern didn?t give away anyprizes this year. #16 - Best Judge Will Repko was voted best judge and received 82 points. David Heidt was second with 73 points. Ross Smith was third with 28 points. Jason Peterson was fourth with 25 points. Ken Strange was fifth with 22 points. Over 50 judges received votes in this category- so many in fact, that even I received votes. Best Answer- ?The best judges haven?t judged me.? #17 - Best First Year Judge Jonathan Paul was voted best first year judge and received 8 points. Matt McDonald was second with 7 votes and Sara Holbrook was third with 6 points. I did receive a vote for someone named ?statch?. #18- Best Rising First-Year Brian Smith was voted best first-year debater and received 36 points. Reid Shannon was second with 3 points. Avery Dale and Stephen Chaudoin tied for third place with 2 points. #19 - Best Rising Second-Year Scott Phillips and Tristan Morales tied for best rising second-year debater and received 15 points. Stacey Nathan was third with 8 points. #20 Most Improved Second-Year Tristan Morales was voted most improved second-year and received 10 points. Scott Phillips was second with 9 points and Christine Malumphy was third with 5 points. #21- Most Improved Upperclassman/Upperclasswoman Shawn Powers won with 7 points. Jonah Feldman was second with 6 points and Nate Gorelick was third with 5 points. #22- Most Underrated Team NYU GG was voted most underrated team and received 15 points. North Texas PP was second place with 6 points. There was a tie for third between Dartmouth LT and Catholic DP, who both received 4 points. Usually a team that wins a national championship is not considered underrated. #23 - Best Overall Squad Northwestern was voted best overall squad and received 19 points. MSU was second place with 10 points and Berkeley was third place with 9 points. #24 - Funniest Debater Goof Garen was voted funniest debater and received 14 points. Calum Matheson was second and received 10 points. Nate Gorelick was third and received 8 points. The choice of Goof seems questionable as all of his funny jokes were canned and often repeated(goof- please don?t hack into my e-mail account). #25 - Squad you most want to debate for, other than your own MSU won with 10 points. Dartmouth was second place with 8 points and Berkeley was third with 7 points. It?s odd that Northwestern was voted best overall squad, but very few, if any people said they would want to debate there. #26 - Best Squad for Novices Vermont was voted best squad for novices and received 11 points. Liberty was second with 8 points and Catholic was third with 7 points. Best Answer- ?El Fisto State? #27 - Rank the Topics The Middle East was voted best topic and received 96 points(low points is good because #1 meant most preferred). Energy was second with 131 points. Immigration was third with 133 points. Europe was fourth with 167 points. Of course, we are debating the last place topic. #28- Should the US or EU Be the Actor on the 2003-04 Topic? The USFG is the preferred actor and received 47 votes. EU received 8 votes. Best Answer- ?Passive Voice?- I bet we can guess from where that vote came. #29- Best Chance to Win World Poker Tour Event The winner in a landslide is Todd Woodbury- just kidding. Ross Kennedy Smith won with 11 points. Will Repko was second with 10 points and Tejinder Singh was third with 5 points. Who knew that Ross was a Kennedy. Best Answer(from an unnamed female debater)- ?Concordia RT if the game was strip poker.? Second Best Answer- ?Dallas Perkins, he can bankroll it better than Repko.? Third Best Answer- ?Anyone other than Brett O?Donnell.? This concludes the 2003 DCA Awards Show. Thanks for voting and reading. Sincerely, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From krausak Thu May 22 21:55:14 2003 From: krausak (Alyse Kraus) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:55:14 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Awards Show Message-ID: Melissa Hurter (who tied for Best Novice with David Coons from Wake Forest) debates for Liberty...and she totally and completely rocks. Just an FYI. Congrats to you Melissa :) Alyse Kraus Liberty University >From: "Aaron Kall" >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: [eDebate] DCA Awards Show >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:53:01 +0000 > >Welcome to the Debater's Choice Awards! This year, we received 59 ballots. >Thanks go out to everyone who voted. And for those that dislike us, we love >you, too. I apologize in advance for the DCA Awards Show not being as >funny this year- I am on my way out the door to the airport and I had to >send this out before I left. > >So, let's get to the awards. > >There were a few awards that weren?t categories per se, but people still >received votes: > >Least Funny Debater- Jim Lux >Biggest Fort Hays Hack- Mike Hester >Shortest Debater- Andrew Leong >Biggest Debate Dork(besides myself for doing this DCA thing)- Casey Kelly, >for filling out a complete DCA ballot even though he?s not eligible to vote > >To all those people who voted for themselves and especially to those who >voted for themselves while speaking in the third person- I hope you won. > >Aaron > >#1- The Top Ten > >Here's a recap of the top ten: > >10- Jonah Feldman, Michigan >10- Raja Gaddipati, Northwestern >9- Nate Gorelick, NYU >8- Josh Lynn, Emory >7- Andrew Leong, Dartmouth >6- Greta Stahl, MSU >5- Scott Phillips, Emory >4- Tejinder Singh, Berkeley >3- Charles Olney, Whitman >2- Goof Garen, Northwestern >1- Calum Matheson, MSU > >Thanks to everyone who wrote the bios. > >#2- Best Novice > >Not many people responded to this category, but those who did responded >with answers like Vlad V. and Carlos from Vermont. I found it funny that >few people even knew the names of any novices, but everyone had an opinion >on what the best squad for novices was. There was a tie for Best Novice >between Melissa Hurter(school unknown- Catholic maybe?) and David Coons >from Wake Forest. Melissa and David each had 9 points. Third place goes >to Carlos from Vermont with 6 points. > >Best Answer- ?I don?t know any novices, but I wish I did.? > >#3 - Best 2A of the Year > >Calum Matheson was voted best 2A of the year and received 18 points. >Tejinder Singh was second place with 9 votes. Josh Lynn and Tristan >Morales tied for 3rd place with 4 points. > >#4 - Best 2N of the Year > >Good Garen was voted best 2N of the year and received 14 points. Calum >Matheson was second with 11 points and Scott Phillips was 3rd place with 8 >votes. > >#5 - Best 1N of the Year > >Greta Stahl was voted best 1N of the year and received 11 points. Stacey >Nathan was second with 10 points and Tristan Morales was third with 5 >points. > >#6 - Best 1A of the Year > >Scott Phillips was voted best 1A of the year and received 13 points. Dan >Shalmon was second with 7 points and Jonah Feldman was third with 6 points. > >#7 - Speediest Debater > >Scott Phillips was voted speediest master debater of the year and received >28 points. Rashad Evans was second place with 8 points and Kacey Wolmer >was third with 4 points. > ># 8 - Most Comprehensible > >Calum Matheson was voted most comprehensible and received 8 points. Ben >Thorpe was second with 7 points and Charles Olney was third with 6 points. > ># 9 - Best Team Against Kritiks > >Whitman BO was voted the best team against kritiks and received 16 points. >There was a tie for second place between Dartmouth LT and Northwestern GM, >who both received 10 points. > >Best Answer- ?MSU SS because their answers and evidence were terrible, but >they always won. You?ve got to respect that.? > >#10 - Best Team Running Kritiks > >Northwestern GM was voted best team running kritiks and received 29 points. > There was a tie for second between Dartmouth LT and NYU GG, who both >received 8 points. > >#11- Best Team on the Aff > >MSU SS was voted best team on the Aff. and received 14 points. >Northwestern GM was second with 8 points and Georgia PR was third with 6 >points. > >#12 - Best Team on the Neg > >Northwestern GM was voted best team on the Neg. and received 13 points. >Emory LP was second and received 10 points. There was a tie for third >between Whitman BO and Berkeley NS, who both received 6 points. > >#13 - Best Overall Debate Tournament Excluding NDT/CEDA Nationals > >Wake Forest was voted to have the best overall tournament and received 23 >points. Northwestern was second with 13 points. There was a tie for third >between Harvard and West Georgia, who both received 5 points. > >#14- Best Tournament Hospitality > >Harvard was voted to have the best tournament hospitality and received 18 >points. West Georgia was second with 7 points and Wake Forest was third >with 6 points. > >#15 - Tournament with the best awards > >Northwestern and Harvard were voted to be the debate tournament with the >best awards and tied for first place with 10 points. The NDT was third >place and received 8 votes. ?Masks are cool? was the most commonly cited >reason for why people liked the Harvard awards. People must have forgot >that Northwestern didn?t give away anyprizes this year. > >#16 - Best Judge > >Will Repko was voted best judge and received 82 points. David Heidt was >second with 73 points. Ross Smith was third with 28 points. Jason >Peterson was fourth with 25 points. Ken Strange was fifth with 22 points. >Over 50 judges received votes in this category- so many in fact, that even >I received votes. > >Best Answer- ?The best judges haven?t judged me.? > >#17 - Best First Year Judge > >Jonathan Paul was voted best first year judge and received 8 points. Matt >McDonald was second with 7 votes and Sara Holbrook was third with 6 points. > I did receive a vote for someone named ?statch?. > >#18- Best Rising First-Year > >Brian Smith was voted best first-year debater and received 36 points. Reid >Shannon was second with 3 points. Avery Dale and Stephen Chaudoin tied for >third place with 2 points. > >#19 - Best Rising Second-Year > >Scott Phillips and Tristan Morales tied for best rising second-year debater >and received 15 points. Stacey Nathan was third with 8 points. > >#20 Most Improved Second-Year > >Tristan Morales was voted most improved second-year and received 10 points. > Scott Phillips was second with 9 points and Christine Malumphy was third >with 5 points. > >#21- Most Improved Upperclassman/Upperclasswoman > >Shawn Powers won with 7 points. Jonah Feldman was second with 6 points and >Nate Gorelick was third with 5 points. > >#22- Most Underrated Team > >NYU GG was voted most underrated team and received 15 points. North Texas >PP was second place with 6 points. There was a tie for third between >Dartmouth LT and Catholic DP, who both received 4 points. Usually a team >that wins a national championship is not considered underrated. > >#23 - Best Overall Squad > >Northwestern was voted best overall squad and received 19 points. MSU was >second place with 10 points and Berkeley was third place with 9 points. > >#24 - Funniest Debater > >Goof Garen was voted funniest debater and received 14 points. Calum >Matheson was second and received 10 points. Nate Gorelick was third and >received 8 points. The choice of Goof seems questionable as all of his >funny jokes were canned and often repeated(goof- please don?t hack into my >e-mail account). > >#25 - Squad you most want to debate for, other than your own > >MSU won with 10 points. Dartmouth was second place with 8 points and >Berkeley was third with 7 points. It?s odd that Northwestern was voted >best overall squad, but very few, if any people said they would want to >debate there. > >#26 - Best Squad for Novices > >Vermont was voted best squad for novices and received 11 points. Liberty >was second with 8 points and Catholic was third with 7 points. > >Best Answer- ?El Fisto State? > >#27 - Rank the Topics > >The Middle East was voted best topic and received 96 points(low points is >good because #1 meant most preferred). Energy was second with 131 points. >Immigration was third with 133 points. Europe was fourth with 167 points. >Of course, we are debating the last place topic. > >#28- Should the US or EU Be the Actor on the 2003-04 Topic? > >The USFG is the preferred actor and received 47 votes. EU received 8 >votes. > >Best Answer- ?Passive Voice?- I bet we can guess from where that vote came. > >#29- Best Chance to Win World Poker Tour Event > >The winner in a landslide is Todd Woodbury- just kidding. Ross Kennedy >Smith won with 11 points. Will Repko was second with 10 points and >Tejinder Singh was third with 5 points. Who knew that Ross was a Kennedy. > >Best Answer(from an unnamed female debater)- ?Concordia RT if the game was >strip poker.? > >Second Best Answer- ?Dallas Perkins, he can bankroll it better than Repko.? > >Third Best Answer- ?Anyone other than Brett O?Donnell.? > >This concludes the 2003 DCA Awards Show. Thanks for voting and reading. > >Sincerely, > >Aaron > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From needtickets Fri May 23 14:26:54 2003 From: needtickets (nba tickets) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:26:54 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] UMKC Assistant Director Job Announcement Message-ID: Hi, This is Josh Coffman, I will be back at UMKC next year coaching part time. I am posting on behalf of Linda Collier. She would like announce that the Assistant Director of Debate job is open and she is accepting all inquiries at: collierl at umkc.edu >From what I understand this is a full time postion but doesnt require an advanced degree (although that is welcomed). you can reach me at jcoffma at learnlink.emory.edu if you have questions for me. Thanks Josh _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From richarddebate Fri May 23 17:31:27 2003 From: richarddebate (Rich debate) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [eDebate] nice victory..now what In-Reply-To: <20030522160002.16100.76101.Mailman@fiat.cross-x.com> Message-ID: <20030523223127.15771.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> There has been recent discussion about our achieving control in Iraq. This issue to me is mute. My concern is.. now what. We made the decision to go into Iraq the day after 9/11. Our intentions are to control or have an influence in the region. But my main concern is the following. The former director of nation building for Serbia and Kosovo has been quoted as stating it takes at least five years to get things operational. Will we support our involvement in Iraq in a major way for the next five years? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From j-lux Fri May 23 22:06:30 2003 From: j-lux (j-lux at northwestern.edu) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:06:30 CDT Subject: [eDebate] DCA Awards Show Message-ID: <200305240306.h4O36aep023331@hecky.it.northwestern.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030523/51df0c3d/attachment.pot From rs001j Fri May 23 22:21:33 2003 From: rs001j (Rajen Subramanian) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] My first and only long edebate post Message-ID: Hey Y'all, I did not think I was ever going to write a long thank-you note to the debate community despite my gratitude, regard for and attachment to the community. My reasons for not doing so were purely because of my not attending many national tournaments, I felt it would appear extremely pompous of me to write notes of thanks to a list serv I had never really posted to and where almost nobody outside my region knew me. But, Nate Ketsdever told me the opposite and got me to post this thing. This is aimed mainly at people in the North East CEDA debate community (you know the one with lots of novice debaterS). If you are outside the north east feel free to read or hit delete as per your preference. As an introduction (if you don't already know this about me) I am (was?) an international student from India who debated for the University of Rochester. I competed in the Novice, JV and Varsity divisions attaining a moderate degree of competitive success in all three divisions. But what I took away from my three years of policy debate (I unfortunately graduated a year early so couldn't debate enough) was far greater than the cheap plastic trophies I have on my bookshelf. Debate was the most important thing I did in college, it taught me to manage my time, operate under stress, think critically, perform insane amounts of research and perhaps even speak a little more eloquently than I used to. These skills have enabled me significant academic success and enabled me to enter graduate school for my Ph.D. I have to start thanking people by thanking my coaches. Sam, Ken-dawg, Kat, Sj, Llano, Jess, Nate and Adam.....thanks y'all. You actually taught me to think, think more and better than I used to be able to. I learned the art of questioning and responding from each one of you, and how can i forget the lessons in research y'all taught me. Lessons that I was able to apply in my honors thesis and in all the other academic work I did, lessons that few professors could have ever taught me in as little time as you did. I sincerely thank each and everyone of you. Y'all have always been there to pull me out of the dumps when I've been there in and outside of debate, I hope for the best for each one of you and doubt that I can ever get you folks out of my heart and mind. Next on the list are my teammates. I will thank some by name and others with a line or two, if I don't mention you please pardon my absentmindedness. Camber & Amy--- never met two people smarter or nicer than the two of you in my twenty one years of existence.I'm glad for all the great times we shared and everything the two of you taught me about debate and about life in general. I thank you and hope and wish for the best for both of you. Matthew--- Yeah you didn't debate this year, yeah your 2NRs had miles to go (just like my 2ARs)........but you were and always will remain an awesome friend and thanks for being my debate partner all of sophomore year. We could have won more, we just should have run our aff on the neg as well. Good luck next semester and after. Cedric--- You freaken rocked! Yeah towards the end of the year we did gain some hostility but it cleared up at CEDA Nats. It was great debating with you, you're still a fascist but you're still totally cool. Good luck with school and debate. Possum--- ummm.....yeah...... you're the Possum, thats it! Everybody who knows the Possum knows why he's awesome. Thanks for being in my life, being one of my closest friends and always being there for me. I don't know if I could have survived my first few semesters of college without you and a few other friends like you. Thanks again buddy! Good Luck in the future! E-Bone--- I still regret the decision I made in choosing not to debate with you at Binghamton freshman year (you and a few others know the reason why), but it worked out in you getting a much better partner and attaining far greater successes than we would have ever achieved. It was great to close out UVM frosh year with you and John and Illeana and having you as a friend for two years. Good luck w/ Law and other stuff. Johnathan---- Dude, I only debated with you once, yeah we didn't break and for some weird reason they gave me a speaker award but you have an amazing career ahead of you. You're a brilliant guy who can think very critically, I was glad to have debated with you at regionals and I wish you weren't an Optics major as then you could probably debate more. Good luck with the optics and math and other weird stuff and don't let the robots take over the world (you know what I'm talking about.....Joy 2001). D'Amico--- you were the greatest and craziest roomate ever.....i still vividly remember the 3AM conversations on being reincarnated as a lion....and also your spews on baudrilliard and your post modernists in a sentence....I'm glad to have to known you as a debater, a friend and a roommate. Thank you for being in my life and enriching it by leaps and bounds. John, Christy, Jess, Andy, Liz, Danielle, Anna, Ilana, Eric, chris, Lindsay, Ope, Vlad and all you other awesome people thanks for having been on the team and having been friends of mine. I'm glad to have known y'all and wish you all the best. In addition to my teammates I owe thanks to a bunch of people from other schools: Vermont: You people rock! There aren't many other words to describe y'all. I only know a few people on your enormous squad but I'm going to list those I know. Tuna--- you've always been a source of inspiration to me and have always urged me on despite the fact that my moving on was often at the cost of some of your teams. You're a great man, you've done wonders in introducing people to this activity and thank you for promoting novices in this activity. Helen --- You're one of my favorite judges and I know I did deliver what was probably one of the worst speeches of my life in front of you at WDI and Rochester but I made it up by delivering some of my best speeches in front of you as well. Thanks for being a great judge and a wonderful human being. Jillian ---- Hmmm.....the competition never ended did it? I know I ticked you off after many rounds, sorry for all that. But I was glad to have known you and debated you as many times as I have. Good Luck in the future. Teresa --- I was really glad to have debated with you at WDI, back in your early debate days. I'm glad to have debated you since that day and thank you for being a friend and a competitor. I wish you the best for the future. BTW Math is still cool, I'm just not going to do it for much longer. Gretta, Brian, Jen, Lana, V, Edwin, Shiela, Fishbone, Shawn and other fine folks from the Green Mountains, thanks for having been in this activity during the same time period as me. I enjoyed debating each of y'all and chiling with you folks at the end of each round. Its hard to believe that people could be as intense rivals as UR and UVM and still be friends at the end of it all. Army: Despite my belief in Gandhianism, nonviolence and pacifism, you Black Knights of Westpoint are freaken awesome: Reid Sawyer: A better man is hard to find. Reid, you always motivated me and helped me through all the dumb things I did as a debater. You always were there with a kind word when I messed up and was down and out at tournaments. You were amongst those few people who pushed themselves to understand me when I had teh ridiculously thick accent (its less now though its still there), you helped me in numerous ways and I wish the English language had better expressions than Thank You. So I'll just say thank you and hope that it will suffice. Will Felder: A Westpoint debater running Statism.......the stars must have gone crazy. Seriously, Will you've been a great competitor and a great friend. I'm glad we got to debate at the same time and I think I still owe you a drink from CEDA Nats. Good luck with the future. Ian, Adam, Elliot, Dave, Saki, Julie and you other folks who's names I can't remember right now, Thanks for having been great people and involved in this amazing activity. NYU (and the rest of the NYC folks): Will Baker: If it wasn't for one sentence you told me Sophomore year I would have quit debate then. When almost everyone else dismissed what I had to say screaming "clear" every thirty seconds you pushed yourself to trying to understand me and always (or atleast claimed to) understood me. You've motivated me, pushed me on, helped me, guided me and taught me lessons to numerous to enumerate. As I wrote for Reid, I wish there were words better than Thank You in the English language, but all I can say is Thank You. Thank you for everything and I'll be in NYC until the end of June if you want some one to judge or soemthing for the UDL I'd be glad to volunteer. Vic and Ellen ---- Thanks for being two great judges with great after round advice. I enjoyed having y'all in the back of the round. Good luck in the future Jen and Kristin --- Y'all were amongst the most fun teams I ever debated. It was great debating you and even though we never debated or knew each other long enough to become good friends, I'm glad I knew the two of you. Good luck w/ everything. Ricky and Nate--- I never debated you guys but I always tried to learn from the two of you. Congrats on winning CEDAs. Marist: Max: Whats there to say about Max!!! Or rahter Whats there not to say about Max! Max, you've always been a great motivator and a great friend. Your commitment devotion and friendliness have told me the world despite all its flaws is still a wonderful place to be in. Thanks man! Scotty: You rule man! You're the coolest guy ever. No warrants needed or will be provided! Dude, Thanks for being a friend! You other fine folks at Marist.....you're all cool people its just that my brain is kinda filled with emotion and I can't remember everyone's names this instant. But you know who you are and thank you for being who you were and are. Before I end I need to thank the man who made my entry into debate possible....the one and only Sam Nelson: Sam, you're an amazing person and a wonderful human being despite your occasional machiavellian tendencies. You've helped so many people enter this amazing activity who otherwise would have never known about it leave alone join it. I know few other programs that can pull a random international student who doesn't have a clue what s/he is doing and take them for a ride to debate for a weekend in less than a month after they arrive in this country. The fact that you could do it deserves more credit than anyone would be willing to give you. This is one of the last times I will be associated with this activity, I might judge for a tournament or two if the Patriot Act allows me to do so.I've really enjoyed my times in this activity with the people in it. Please accept my thanks. I'm going to be in NYC until the end of June and then move to Madison in July as I start working for a Professor before I begin my graduate work this fall. If any of y'all are in NYC and wanna hang out send me an email, I'll be checking this account while I'm here. With respect, gratitude, appreciation and good cheer, Rajen Subramanian Formerly of the University of Rochester Debate Union ________________________________________________________________________ "Zeal is a volcano, the peak of which the grass of indecisiveness does not grow." -Kahlil Gibran, "A Handful of Sand on the Shore" From potatopeeler Sat May 24 00:30:20 2003 From: potatopeeler (Eric Short) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:30:20 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] DCA Awards Show Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030524/251f8694/attachment.html From potatopeeler Sat May 24 00:46:45 2003 From: potatopeeler (Eric Short) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:46:45 +0000 Subject: [eDebate] Re: DCA Awards Pt 2 Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030524/0bfc8e40/attachment.htm From BelHomme Sat May 24 06:14:50 2003 From: BelHomme (Andy Myers) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 04:14:50 -0700 Subject: [eDebate] UMKC Message-ID: <747201c321e5$b17c8120$0a04010a@mail2world.com> if someone from umkc could backchannel me, i could use some cites. thank you very much _______________________________________________________________ Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030524/15990f09/attachment.html From bobjordan Sat May 24 09:41:33 2003 From: bobjordan (Bob Jordan) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 09:41:33 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] And Some of You Thing the Debate Playing Field is Uneven Message-ID: <000201c32202$926b2440$6401a8c0@seachange> If you think the debate playing field is uneven, check out the world of collegiate chess. Think of it as Northwestern's resources meets the Pro Debate Tour. http://www.sunspot.net/bal-te.md.chess18may18.story Enjoy! Bob Jordan From schiappa Sat May 24 11:32:03 2003 From: schiappa (Edward Schiappa) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [eDebate] Topicality/Definition Book Message-ID: Hey there. Most folks won't remember me, as I debated in the 70s and coached until 1990. But I was wondering if Topicality is still as big an issue as it used to be. If so, debaters may want to know about my new book, *Defining Reality: Definitions & the Politics of Meaning.* The book is motivated by an interest in how we argue about definitions that dates back to my first year of high school debate. If you are interested in more details, see: http://www.siu.edu/~siupress/titles/s03_titles/schiappa_defining.htm I also wanted to offer to answer any questions that debaters might have after reading the book. Oh yeah, there is also an updated version of the nukespeak article for those who have cited my 1989 article in their nuclearism arguments. Just contact me offlist if you have questions. Edward Schiappa University of Minnesota From cpwiii Sun May 25 02:42:09 2003 From: cpwiii (cpwiii at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 02:42:09 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] nice victory..now what Message-ID: <000601c32291$26f63da0$56fd4cd8@cpwiii> No one said life is easy. "No guts (read liberal Democrats), no glory (read the soldiers who are risking their lives and limbs, while getting whined at by idiots behind the lines)!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030525/2da0f52f/attachment.htm From jdfeldma Sun May 25 03:44:07 2003 From: jdfeldma (jdfeldma at umich.edu) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 04:44:07 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Great Moments in Sports Gambling History Message-ID: <1053852247.3ed08257a3635@carrierpigeon.mail.umich.edu> Yokozuna Assashoryu, even though he has already won the tournament, defeats Chiyokaitai to win the emperors cup by two wins........barely covering the spread. Truly, another great moment in sumo sports gambling history. ------Jonah From let_the_american_empire_burn Sun May 25 09:37:38 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 09:37:38 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] nice victory..now what Message-ID: richarddebate at yahoo.com wrote: "There has been recent discussion about our achieving control in Iraq. This issue to me is mute. My concern is.. now what. We made the decision to go into Iraq the day after 9/11. Our intentions are to control or have an influence in the region. But my main concern is the following. The former director of nation building for Serbia and Kosovo has been quoted as stating it takes at least five years to get things operational. Will we support our involvement in Iraq in a major way for the next five years?" could your thinking have been influenced by reading molly ivins latest column? .k ___ Star Telegram - posted on Sun, May. 25, 2003 We've turned Iraq over -- now what? By Molly Ivins / Creators Syndicate NEW YORK - Much as I hate to interrupt what is apparently a deeply felt triumphalism on the American right, now that it's over, does anyone see any reason for our having invaded Iraq? I realize that's what we kept trying to figure out before the invasion, but don't you think it should at least be visible in hindsight? Good thing we won the war, because the peace sure looks like a quagmire. These are early days, certainly, to attempt a full historical evaluation. Could be a case of the forest and the trees. Perhaps we're well along to having everything work out magnificently, and I'm just missing it. Still, I can't see anything that's going right. Iraq is in chaos, and apparently the only way we'll be able to stop it will be to kill a lot of Iraqis. Just what Saddam Hussein used to do. The other day we announced that we were going to shoot looters, and when that produced nightmare scenarios of children dead for stealing bread, we had to cancel that plan. Now we're going to try gun control -- that should have the enthusiastic support of the NRA. Meanwhile, the chaos in Iraq seems to be costing us whatever good will we earned for getting rid of Saddam -- the one unmitigated good to have come from all of this. I hate to be picky, picky, picky, but there are still no weapons of mass destruction. In fact, we've apparently even stopped looking for them. Since Iraq never had anything to do with al Qaeda or Sept. 11 -- despite American public opinion on this issue -- it was certainly no surprise to see al Qaeda back again, with strikes in Saudi Arabia and Morocco. President Bush's announcement that we had broken up the organization seems to have been a trifle premature. There was much unmuted griping from American intelligence about the total Saudi failure to cooperate before the attack there. (As one anti-war sign reminded us before the recent events, "Sept. 11 equals 15 Saudis, 0 Iraqis.") Meanwhile, one of the other sales pitches we were given was that, for reasons never explained, getting rid of Saddam would make it easier to make peace between Israel and the Palestinians. It's not looking promising. Didn't look promising before the war; doesn't now. Bush came out with his Road Map for Peace, and the Israelis took the first exit. Ariel Sharon, so memorably described by Bush as "a man of peace," wasted no time undercutting that proposal. The always-unhelpful Palestinian terrorists attacked, and Sharon counterattacked and then canceled his trip here to discuss the peace plan. The usual ugly pictures and refueled resentments ensued -- the same-old, same-old of this 50-year-old cycle. So far, getting rid of Saddam seems to have had zero effect on this old deadlock. Meanwhile, Iraq looks more and more as though it will be costing us the high-end estimate of $20 billion a year, for which the Iraqis have yet to appear noticeably grateful. The Shiites hate us; the Kurds are killing the Arabs; we're hiring old Baathite thugs to run things and generally becoming unpopular over there. As John Henry's cousin Eddie used to say of the Vietnamese, "If they don't like what we're doin' for 'em, why don't they just go back where they come from?" OK, if this is the situation -- and it's certainly what's being reported -- I don't get why we're still hearing Bushies saying, "Ha, ha, ha -- we won the war." Was there anyone who said we wouldn't? Since I am in the happy position of having predicted a short, easy war and the peace from hell, I think I'm looking like a genius prognosticator about now. I can't figure out why the Republicans are happy about this. Sure, it was a great photo-op on the aircraft carrier, but if you think the American people won't notice $20 billion a year because of some nice pictures, you have sadly underestimated the common sense of this nation. I realize that what we see depends on where we stand, but there is a substantial body of emerging fact here, none of it encouraging for optimists. We may yet see hopeful developments, but darned if I can see any cause for celebration now, or even for building a presidential re-election campaign around footage of our triumphant prez flying out to the Abraham Lincoln. There's a very real possibility that by November 2004, Republicans will very much want everybody to forget the war now called Dubya Dubya II. (Sorry, I don't know whom to credit for that one, but it's not original with me.) I've got an even-money bet out that says more Americans will be killed in the peace than in the war and more Iraqis will be killed by Americans in the peace than in the war. Not the first time I've had a bet out that I hoped I'd lose. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From let_the_american_empire_burn Sun May 25 09:43:19 2003 From: let_the_american_empire_burn (Kevin Sanchez) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 09:43:19 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] My first and only long edebate post Message-ID: Rajen Subramanian writes: "I might judge for a tournament or two if the Patriot Act allows me to do so." i don't mean this in any way disparagingly or sarcastically, but are you serious? are there really provisions in the patriot act which would imped you from visiting the usa? (hoping you were just being funny,) .k _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rs001j Sun May 25 11:46:26 2003 From: rs001j (Rajen Subramanian) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [eDebate] My first and only long edebate post Message-ID: Well the patriot act makes getting an off campus work permit harder for international students and it wasn't easy in the first place (aka before the act). So I don't know if I will be able to get a work permit to legally work as a judge at debate tournaments. Rajen ________________________________________________________________________ "Zeal is a volcano, the peak of which the grass of indecisiveness does not grow." -Kahlil Gibran, "A Handful of Sand on the Shore" From SD003K Sun May 25 12:21:30 2003 From: SD003K (SD003K) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:21:30 -0400 Subject: [eDebate] Re. My first and only long edebate post Message-ID: <3ed0fb9a.1592.7872@mail.rochester.edu> Words cannot describe how much I will miss Rajen. (Aka I-fire or sunshine). Anyone who knows Rajen understands how much he rocks. Sure, had this nasty habit of throwing all his empty cans of black beans and/or mixed vegitbles into the corner of our dorm, but hey, he put up with me for two whole semesters. Seriously though, Rajen has been the heart and soul of the U of R debate team for the past three years and will be greatly missed. I will allways remember hearing the recap of the round at ceda nats where both 1st constructives left the room in protest of the war in Iraq leaving Rajen to debate the merits of love and forgiveness one on one vs Asher. Rajen can preach peace and love with the best of them (even despite his extremely capitalist leanings). I wish him the best in Madison next year. Peace and love. -Steve D'Amico U of R Debate Union From cpwiii Sun May 25 21:37:05 2003 From: cpwiii (charles woodbury) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:37:05 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Fwd: Fw: CDR, McIntyre's letter to Senator Byrd Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20030525/7df5eb95/attachment.html From stannardmatt Sun May 25 22:21:40 2003 From: stannardmatt (matt stannard) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:21:40 -0600 Subject: [eDebate] My first and only long edebate post Message-ID: Rajen: I would hire you to judge under any circumstances, and would support your right to be in my community, saying and doing anything you wished. I would legally fight for your ability to do so. I hope others will make similar declarations. It's time to put ourselves on the line. respectfully matt stannard >From: Rajen Subramanian >To: edebate at ndtceda.com >Subject: re: [eDebate] My first and only long edebate post >Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:46:26 -0400 (EDT) > >Well the patriot act makes getting an off campus work permit harder for >international students and it wasn't easy in the first place (aka >before the act). So I don't know if I will be able to get a work permit to >legally work as a judge at debate tournaments. > >Rajen > >________________________________________________________________________ >"Zeal is a volcano, the peak of which the grass of indecisiveness does not >grow." >-Kahlil Gibran, "A Handful of Sand on the Shore" > >_______________________________________________ >eDebate mailing list >eDebate at ndtceda.com >To subscribe, UNSUBSCRIBE, and see the subscriber list, go here: >http://ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dsrader Mon May 26 11:20:50 2003 From: dsrader (Doyle Srader) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:20:50 -0500 Subject: [eDebate] Lisa