[eDebate] ans Guevara

walid kandeel khemicalraydon
Sat Jul 1 15:38:29 CDT 2006


Korcok,   Stop smoking crack!!!

Your argument presupposes that the current ongoing (seemingly never ending) campaign of colonization is better then Sadam's regime.  I'm not sure how you can say this when the press (although reluctantly) is continuously releasing stories of Haditha's, Abu-Gharaib,  and  the like.  This is only a glimpse of what is really crackin on the ground.  For your info THES ACTS ARE NOT LIBERATING.  Furthermore, there has probably  been hundreds of these types of massacres all accross the desert that your so-called free press never even covers.  How can you make the argument that the current barbaric and inhuman treatment of the Iraqi people that is being carryed out by your democracy loving thugs/animals is better then the awful stuff Sadam used to do? 
I thought you had "critical thinking skills"?  you should try using them prior to making such lame morally bankrupt and ideologically driven statements.    

Your numbers analysis does not impress me.  So what are you saying?  That because US troops killed less people then Sadam, the US should recieve some type of applause.   That argument is riduculous.  Under your analysis Sadam is a great guy because he killed less people then Hitler.  Furthermore, we cant even begin to know how many people are actually killed by US bombs b/c no one releases credible data to that regard.  The US media only cares about the number of US troops killed in battle, they could care less about the Iraqi civilians you claim were there to liberate.  Moreover, I did not see any data relating to the over 1/2 a million Iraqi's that were murdered do to US sanctions on the country for over 10 years.  You know the ones that Madaline Albright concluded that were worth sacrificing in her 60 minute exclusive. 

all power to the people
walid



Michael Korcok <mmk_savant at hotmail.com> wrote:     P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }  -->  or it could be that you have internalized way too much of the Wrong Stuff.   start here with a simple 2-part argument:
 
1) if you had your way Saddam and Sons would still be in power.
 
because the Coalition would not have liberated Iraq and you too had that deer-staring-into-the-headlights silence when challenged here 3 years ago about what you would alternatively do to remove Saddam and Sons.  true, there was the typically moronic "back in 1992 the US should have...," the creatively lefty "Cooper's Troopers, the tricycle-riding special forces mimes" and the tragically uncreative "Do Clinton's failed Kurd Insurgency again because eventually it might work" plan from Sanchez.  but as for anything worth spit we only got "unh... duh... Bush iz Dumb!"   and it is just way too late for you to come up with something 3 years after the fact, because I still have those pictures I took of you staring slack-jawed into the camera.
  
 that means the proper comparison is between the Iraq we have and the Iraq we would have had with Sadaam and Sons still in charge rather than comparing the Iraq we have to an imagined idyllic and prosperous Iraq.  the latter comparison is just dishonest bullshit foisted with smarmy quips like "congratulations! the US is better than Sadaam! yay!" the proper response is "yah. better than the Sadaam and Sons nightmare we would still have if we had listened to you." 

2) that would have been much worse than this.

 a reasonable estimate is that Saddam and Sons killed about 750,000 Iraqis (over 1 million persons if you include Kuwaitis and Iranians) over the 15 years before liberation which comes to about 50,000 human beings a year.  and 15 years is a good sample because some years they only butchered 10,000 while in other years they annihilated the Marsh Arabs...  the LA Times and others last week estimated about 50,000 total Iraqi casualties since March 2003, the vast majority because of terrorist attacks but lets use the far left's drunken concept of causality/blame and put the whole on us and, since leftists just don't do math, lets assume the LA Times underestimated by a whopping 50% and the actual total is 75,000 Iraqis dead...  well even you can see the bottom line: even using those numbers, net, about 80,000 Iraqis didn't get murdered over the past 3 1/4 years because the US liberated Iraq.
 
too, basic stuff like "Iraqi life expectancy has risen" and "Iraqi child mortality dropped" over the last 3 years. even the frikkin UN says that now despite the best efforts of the political hacks at UNICEF over the years to help you out.  that is net tens of thousands of Iraqis alive that wouldn't have been if you had your way.  some example numbers for you from IndexMundi:
  
 Iraq infant mortality rate per 1000 live births:
 2002: 57.6
 2006: 48.6
which comes to about 25,000 fewer Iraqi infants dead over the last 3 1/4 years than if the 2002 infant mortality rate had continued
  
 Iraq death rate per 1000 population
 2002: 6.02
 2006: 5.37
 which comes to about 58,000 fewer Iraqi human beings dying over the last 3 1/4 years than if the 2002 death rate had held
  
 Iraq life expectancy at birth
 2002: 67.4 years
 2006: 69 years
 which comes to an extra 1 1/2 years of life for every child born today in Iraq than in 2002
 
and Iraq is moving substantially toward democratization, which could be critical to the human future.
 
this is the entry-level argument and without an excellent answer you got nuthin.
now we all understand that "50,000 IRAQIS HAVE DIED!!!" is just dishonest bullshit because it assumes a hidden comparison to an imaginary and perfectly peaceful alternative world rather than the Sadaam and Sons nightmare world we would have had absent the liberation.  so instead you'll toss on us and we'll get covered with hyperbolic adjectives, spooky adverbs, and links to screeching ideological screeds from propagandamonkey.net or rigged surveys from the Lancet or even worse, Iraqdeathtoll.org
 
same shit as when you were calling for unilateral US nuclear disarmament during the Cold War and calling for us to not invade Afghanistan because the Taliban was just misunderstood and calling Zionism racist and calling for the US to send aid to the Sandinistas and calling for the US to abandon Cambodia to the gentle ministrations of Pol Pot and every other plainly catastrophic foreign policy cause of the ideological far left.
 
Michael Korcok



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