[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Wed Apr 4 17:26:11 CDT 2007


Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that answer and win a lot
of debates on it? The debates you see are more ideologically determined and
constrained than the ones i see. And yes at least those folks who debated
milliken have a great legal knowledge to provide to their campuses...

On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren <ceren at usc.edu> wrote:
>
> Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated using the USSC to
> address de facto segregation in school districts. You think that this
> means that they said that the "the law is the best way to end racial
> discrimination in education", and in response you petulantly chellenged
> the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand why this is an
> example of how you don't get nuance?
>
> Seriously?
>
> Omri.
>
> On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are elaborating a
> > community critique of?...like is this a criticism that goes andy ellis
> > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being done on the ground
> > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i know that stuff if
> > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that criticism....
> >
> > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* <andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the lazy revolutionary
> >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned from a year of
> >     milliken debates that you are now using and working with your
> >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in education?
> >
> >
> >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>
> wrote:
> >
> >         No. You just don't get it.
> >
> >         There's actually a relatively robust criticism to be made of
> you,
> >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing can hold the good
> >         hostage
> >         to the perfect while using aggressive smugness to insulate
> >         intellectual
> >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any intellectual care would
> >         claim
> >         to have seen the best debaters in the country claiming that "law
> >         is [the
> >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in education". First
> >         of all,
> >         outside of a very precise use in pyschoanalytic critical
> literature,
> >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There are multiple
> >         branches and
> >         levels of government empowered to enforce legislative and
> judicial
> >         decisions - and while I know that most of the debates that you
> >         saw this
> >         year didn't really think that those distinctions mattered,
> >         that's kind
> >         of my point too.
> >
> >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively robust criticism of
> your
> >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and interpersonal
> >         community.
> >         But I doubt you'd get it.
> >
> >         Omri.
> >
> >
> >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work outside of the legal
> >         structure
> >         >  and in it when necessary to increase minority access to and
> >         completion
> >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of my methods, and
> sure
> >         i didnt
> >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term heard and i saw many
> >         teams
> >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using the law to
> >         challenege racial
> >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking those that made the
> >         claims to
> >         >  follow up on them.
> >         >
> >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue for other peoples
> >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i think there could be
> >         a claimant
> >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by the lack of minority
> >         inclusion
> >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong like you said im not
> >         in the
> >         >  highly technical debates) but there are legal cases and
> >         movements that
> >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and dedication to and
> >         furthermore
> >         >  if through those super high end debates you saw provide the
> >         training
> >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can figure out how to
> >         uses cases on
> >         >  your campus as entree points to legal justice movements.
> >         >
> >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in debates where just lies
> >         and nods to
> >         >  racial inclusion?
> >         >
> >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu
> >
> >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >     Andy,
> >         >
> >         >     Surely you should be leading this effort, what with all of
> the
> >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure you did this year.
> >         And with all
> >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you judged and scouted.
> >         >
> >         >     Omri.
> >         >
> >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:
> >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates about how the law is
> >         not only
> >         >     a good
> >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in education, but the
> >         best method, i
> >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the skills that you have
> >         acquired in
> >         >      > debating about the law to craft a strategy that uses
> the
> >         law to
> >         >     increase
> >         >      > meaningful minority participation in the community. The
> >         NCAA has been
> >         >      > sued for admissions requirements that preference test
> >         scores and
> >         >     gpa, if
> >         >      > there is precedent in that or other cases there should
> >         be a case
> >         >     to sue
> >         >      > your university or your debate team or ceda or the ndt,
> >         if they have
> >         >      > those standards. But dont let my suggestions limit you,
> >         many many
> >         >     many
> >         >      > of you have researched and learned a whole lot about
> >         using the
> >         >     law to
> >         >      > fight for racial justice in education, you im sure can
> >         come up with
> >         >      > something on your own.
> >         >      >
> >         >      >
> >         >      >
> >         >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >         >      >
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> >>
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> >         >      >
> >         >
> >
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> >
> >         >      >
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> >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     --
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     --------------
> >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:
> >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>
> >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> >         >     --------------
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >
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> >
> >
> >         --
> >
> >
> >         --------------
> >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> >         Mobile: 412-512-7256
> >         --------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
>
>
> --
>
>
> --------------
> PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> Email: ceren at usc.edu
> Mobile: 412-512-7256
> --------------
>
>
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