[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

Steven D'Amico stevendamico
Wed Apr 4 17:47:38 CDT 2007


does anyone else find this similar to Stalin arguing with Hitler? As an
Italian I'll just side with whoever wins.

On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Omri, i do indeed feel more informed. But really this is the
> last time...so sad...
>
> On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren <ceren at usc.edu > wrote:
> >
> > OK. Now we're going to discuss "tone".
> >
> > When I said "seriously", it worked because I made your position seem
> > obviously absurd and kind of stupid. I accomplished that by juxtaposing
> > and re-characterizing your positions in such a way as to make you seem
> > nonsensical.
> >
> > When you said "seriously", you followed it up by whining that "the
> > debates you see are more ideologically determined and constrained than
> > the ones i see." This, to put it mildly, failed to really provide the
> > rhetorical umpff that you were looking for.
> >
> > Let's try this again (but, honestly, this is going to have to be the
> > last time): the conceit by which you take it upon yourself to challenge
> > the debate community to attack itself emerges from a combination of
> > ignorance, smugness, and pretension that makes me almost feel bad about
> > publicly mocking you. You need the debate community to be as dull and
> > unnuanced as you are so that you can continue in this pathetic moral
> > exhibitionism, where your desperate need to convince yourself of your
> > own superiority comes together with an inchoate sense of what counts as
> > political activism.
> >
> > You really should stop pretending that you have either the authority or
> > credibility to challenge anybody to do anything. It's getting to be kind
> >
> > of sad.
> >
> > Omri.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/4/2007 3:26 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that answer and win
> > a
> > > lot of debates on it? The debates you see are more ideologically
> > > determined and constrained than the ones i see. And yes at least those
> > > folks who debated milliken have a great legal knowledge to provide to
> > > their campuses...
> > >
> > > On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>> wrote:
> > >
> > >     Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated using the
> > USSC to
> > >     address de facto segregation in school districts. You think that
> > this
> > >     means that they said that the "the law is the best way to end
> > racial
> > >     discrimination in education", and in response you petulantly
> > chellenged
> > >     the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand why this
> > is an
> > >     example of how you don't get nuance?
> > >
> > >     Seriously?
> > >
> > >     Omri.
> > >
> > >     On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > >      > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are
> > elaborating a
> > >      > community critique of?...like is this a criticism that goes
> > andy
> > >     ellis
> > >      > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being done on
> > the
> > >     ground
> > >      > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i know that
> > >     stuff if
> > >      > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that
> > criticism....
> > >      >
> > >      > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* < andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > >     <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com>
> > >      > <mailto: andy.edebate at gmail.com <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > >>>
> > >     wrote:
> > >      >
> > >      >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the lazy
> > revolutionary
> > >      >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned from a year
> > of
> > >      >     milliken debates that you are now using and working with
> > your
> > >      >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in education?
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:
> > >      >
> > >      >         No. You just don't get it.
> > >      >
> > >      >         There's actually a relatively robust criticism to be
> > made
> > >     of you,
> > >      >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing can hold
> > >     the good
> > >      >         hostage
> > >      >         to the perfect while using aggressive smugness to
> > insulate
> > >      >         intellectual
> > >      >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any intellectual
> > >     care would
> > >      >         claim
> > >      >         to have seen the best debaters in the country claiming
> > >     that "law
> > >      >         is [the
> > >      >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in
> > education".
> > >     First
> > >      >         of all,
> > >      >         outside of a very precise use in pyschoanalytic
> > critical
> > >     literature,
> > >      >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There are
> > multiple
> > >      >         branches and
> > >      >         levels of government empowered to enforce legislative
> > and
> > >     judicial
> > >      >         decisions - and while I know that most of the debates
> > >     that you
> > >      >         saw this
> > >      >         year didn't really think that those distinctions
> > mattered,
> > >      >         that's kind
> > >      >         of my point too.
> > >      >
> > >      >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively robust
> > >     criticism of your
> > >      >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and
> > interpersonal
> > >      >         community.
> > >      >         But I doubt you'd get it.
> > >      >
> > >      >         Omri.
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > >      >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work outside of
> > >     the legal
> > >      >         structure
> > >      >         >  and in it when necessary to increase minority access
> > >     to and
> > >      >         completion
> > >      >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of my
> > methods,
> > >     and sure
> > >      >         i didnt
> > >      >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term heard and i
> > >     saw many
> > >      >         teams
> > >      >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using the law
> > to
> > >      >         challenege racial
> > >      >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking those that
> > made the
> > >      >         claims to
> > >      >         >  follow up on them.
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue for other
> > >     peoples
> > >      >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i think there
> >
> > >     could be
> > >      >         a claimant
> > >      >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by the lack of
> > >     minority
> > >      >         inclusion
> > >      >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong like you
> > said
> > >     im not
> > >      >         in the
> > >      >         >  highly technical debates) but there are legal cases
> > and
> > >      >         movements that
> > >      >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and dedication
> > to
> > >     and
> > >      >         furthermore
> > >      >         >  if through those super high end debates you saw
> > >     provide the
> > >      >         training
> > >      >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can figure out
> > how to
> > >      >         uses cases on
> > >      >         >  your campus as entree points to legal justice
> > movements.
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in debates where
> > >     just lies
> > >      >         and nods to
> > >      >         >  racial inclusion?
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>
> >
> > >      >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>>> wrote:
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     Andy,
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     Surely you should be leading this effort, what
> > with
> > >     all of the
> > >      >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure you did
> > this
> > >     year.
> > >      >         And with all
> > >      >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you judged and
> > >     scouted.
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     Omri.
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > >      >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates about how
> > the
> > >     law is
> > >      >         not only
> > >      >         >     a good
> > >      >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in education,
> > >     but the
> > >      >         best method, i
> > >      >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the skills that
> > >     you have
> > >      >         acquired in
> > >      >         >      > debating about the law to craft a strategy
> > that
> > >     uses the
> > >      >         law to
> > >      >         >     increase
> > >      >         >      > meaningful minority participation in the
> > >     community. The
> > >      >         NCAA has been
> > >      >         >      > sued for admissions requirements that
> > preference
> > >     test
> > >      >         scores and
> > >      >         >     gpa, if
> > >      >         >      > there is precedent in that or other cases
> > there
> > >     should
> > >      >         be a case
> > >      >         >     to sue
> > >      >         >      > your university or your debate team or ceda or
> > >     the ndt,
> > >      >         if they have
> > >      >         >      > those standards. But dont let my suggestions
> > >     limit you,
> > >      >         many many
> > >      >         >     many
> > >      >         >      > of you have researched and learned a whole lot
> > about
> > >      >         using the
> > >      >         >     law to
> > >      >         >      > fight for racial justice in education, you im
> > >     sure can
> > >      >         come up with
> > >      >         >      > something on your own.
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > _______________________________________________
> > >      >         >      > eDebate mailing list
> > >      >         >      > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>
> > >      >         <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>>
> > >      >         >      > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >      >
> > >      >         >      >
> > >      >         >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >      >         >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >      >         >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746
> > -
> > >      >         Release Date:
> > >      >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     --
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >     --------------
> > >      >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for
> > Communication
> > >      >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>> <mailto:
> > >      >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:
> > >     ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>>
> > >      >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > >      >         >     --------------
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >      >         >
> > >      >         >  No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >      >         >  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >      >         >  Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 -
> > Release
> > >      >         Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >         --
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >         --------------
> > >      >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > >      >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > >      >         Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > >      >         --------------
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >      >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >      >
> > >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release
> > Date:
> > >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >     --
> > >
> > >
> > >     --------------
> > >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > >     --------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date:
> > 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > --------------
> > PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > Email: ceren at usc.edu
> > Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > --------------
> >
> >
>
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