[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

Josh Hoe jbhdb8
Wed Apr 4 20:02:17 CDT 2007


The problem with this is that USFG topics arent just valuable because they
teach people skills for activism (which they actually do - there are 1000s
of ex-debaters throughout the country doing real life law and policy work
that has impact on people all over the country) but also because they teach
people RESEARCH skills which help hone ADVOCACY skills. The vast majority of
specific literature on most subjects capable of sustaining a year of debate
are based around state directed advocacy.  There are 1000s of books about
movements and activism but only 100s on any one topic area...which is why it
makes for a better CP or K on most topics then it would a topic ACTOR.

To believe what you are saying you have to literally believe all that debate
is for is the most potentially effective "real world" "at the moment"
activism training.  What traditional policy debate teaches is a package of
things including honing research skills and preparing students for GRADUATE
SCHOOL.  Also, believe it or not, some people dont do debate in order to
become an activist...some people actually just enjoy it as a fun
game/activity that is extra and co-curricular.  Many of those same people
also do real community work or donate real time to other causes unrelated to
their debate experiences.  Others do nothing at all to make the world a
better place.  The point is that we take all kinds in debate.....that debate
is supposed to create a process that provides meaningful ground for deep
discussions between potential activists, nihilists, artists, and future
graduate students.

Josh


On 4/4/07, Beth Skinner <beth.skinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To me, the larger point is that when we select law-focused, USFG-focused
> resolutions one of the reasons people give is that it will help us to be
> better advocates if we understand the intricacies of government action.  If
> this is a good reason then we SHOULD ask how people are going to use a
> season's worth of education in practical ways.  If the reaction is 'well, we
> really can't accomplish change this way' then why do we keep selecting these
> topics?  How many years does it take to learn the futility of activism
> through state channels?  If the reaction is 'we're too lazy to do actually
> do anything with the knowledge we gain' or 'I just like sounding good in
> rounds when I read cool cards' then that is sad.  Millions of dollars are
> spent each year on college debate.  Maybe there are better uses for that
> money.
>
> Beth
>
> p.s. congratulations to Omri on making Andy seem like the reasonable one -
> not a lot of people are capable of that
>
>
>
> On 4/4/07, Steven D'Amico <stevendamico at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > does anyone else find this similar to Stalin arguing with Hitler? As an
> > Italian I'll just side with whoever wins.
> >
> >  On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis < andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you Omri, i do indeed feel more informed. But really this is the
> > > last time...so sad...
> > >
> > > On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren <ceren at usc.edu > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OK. Now we're going to discuss "tone".
> > > >
> > > > When I said "seriously", it worked because I made your position seem
> > > >
> > > > obviously absurd and kind of stupid. I accomplished that by
> > > > juxtaposing
> > > > and re-characterizing your positions in such a way as to make you
> > > > seem
> > > > nonsensical.
> > > >
> > > > When you said "seriously", you followed it up by whining that "the
> > > > debates you see are more ideologically determined and constrained
> > > > than
> > > > the ones i see." This, to put it mildly, failed to really provide
> > > > the
> > > > rhetorical umpff that you were looking for.
> > > >
> > > > Let's try this again (but, honestly, this is going to have to be the
> > > >
> > > > last time): the conceit by which you take it upon yourself to
> > > > challenge
> > > > the debate community to attack itself emerges from a combination of
> > > > ignorance, smugness, and pretension that makes me almost feel bad
> > > > about
> > > > publicly mocking you. You need the debate community to be as dull
> > > > and
> > > > unnuanced as you are so that you can continue in this pathetic moral
> > > > exhibitionism, where your desperate need to convince yourself of
> > > > your
> > > > own superiority comes together with an inchoate sense of what counts
> > > > as
> > > > political activism.
> > > >
> > > > You really should stop pretending that you have either the authority
> > > > or
> > > > credibility to challenge anybody to do anything. It's getting to be
> > > > kind
> > > > of sad.
> > > >
> > > > Omri.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/4/2007 3:26 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that answer and
> > > > win a
> > > > > lot of debates on it? The debates you see are more ideologically
> > > > > determined and constrained than the ones i see. And yes at least
> > > > those
> > > > > folks who debated milliken have a great legal knowledge to provide
> > > > to
> > > > > their campuses...
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated using
> > > > the USSC to
> > > > >     address de facto segregation in school districts. You think
> > > > that this
> > > > >     means that they said that the "the law is the best way to end
> > > > racial
> > > > >     discrimination in education", and in response you petulantly
> > > > chellenged
> > > > >     the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand why
> > > > this is an
> > > > >     example of how you don't get nuance?
> > > > >
> > > > >     Seriously?
> > > > >
> > > > >     Omri.
> > > > >
> > > > >     On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > >      > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are
> > > > elaborating a
> > > > >      > community critique of?...like is this a criticism that goes
> > > > andy
> > > > >     ellis
> > > > >      > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being done
> > > > on the
> > > > >     ground
> > > > >      > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i know
> > > > that
> > > > >     stuff if
> > > > >      > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that
> > > > criticism....
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* < andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > > > >     <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com>
> > > > >      > <mailto: andy.edebate at gmail.com <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >     wrote:
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the lazy
> > > > revolutionary
> > > > >      >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned from a
> > > > year of
> > > > >      >     milliken debates that you are now using and working
> > > > with your
> > > > >      >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in
> > > > education?
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         No. You just don't get it.
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         There's actually a relatively robust criticism to
> > > > be made
> > > > >     of you,
> > > > >      >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing can
> > > > hold
> > > > >     the good
> > > > >      >         hostage
> > > > >      >         to the perfect while using aggressive smugness to
> > > > insulate
> > > > >      >         intellectual
> > > > >      >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any
> > > > intellectual
> > > > >     care would
> > > > >      >         claim
> > > > >      >         to have seen the best debaters in the country
> > > > claiming
> > > > >     that "law
> > > > >      >         is [the
> > > > >      >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in
> > > > education".
> > > > >     First
> > > > >      >         of all,
> > > > >      >         outside of a very precise use in pyschoanalytic
> > > > critical
> > > > >     literature,
> > > > >      >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There are
> > > > multiple
> > > > >      >         branches and
> > > > >      >         levels of government empowered to enforce
> > > > legislative and
> > > > >     judicial
> > > > >      >         decisions - and while I know that most of the
> > > > debates
> > > > >     that you
> > > > >      >         saw this
> > > > >      >         year didn't really think that those distinctions
> > > > mattered,
> > > > >      >         that's kind
> > > > >      >         of my point too.
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively robust
> > > > >     criticism of your
> > > > >      >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and
> > > > interpersonal
> > > > >      >         community.
> > > > >      >         But I doubt you'd get it.
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         Omri.
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > >      >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work outside
> > > > of
> > > > >     the legal
> > > > >      >         structure
> > > > >      >         >  and in it when necessary to increase minority
> > > > access
> > > > >     to and
> > > > >      >         completion
> > > > >      >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of my
> > > > methods,
> > > > >     and sure
> > > > >      >         i didnt
> > > > >      >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term heard
> > > > and i
> > > > >     saw many
> > > > >      >         teams
> > > > >      >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using the
> > > > law to
> > > > >      >         challenege racial
> > > > >      >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking those that
> > > > made the
> > > > >      >         claims to
> > > > >      >         >  follow up on them.
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue for
> > > > other
> > > > >     peoples
> > > > >      >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i think
> > > > there
> > > > >     could be
> > > > >      >         a claimant
> > > > >      >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by the
> > > > lack of
> > > > >     minority
> > > > >      >         inclusion
> > > > >      >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong like you
> > > > said
> > > > >     im not
> > > > >      >         in the
> > > > >      >         >  highly technical debates) but there are legal
> > > > cases and
> > > > >      >         movements that
> > > > >      >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and
> > > > dedication to
> > > > >     and
> > > > >      >         furthermore
> > > > >      >         >  if through those super high end debates you saw
> > > > >     provide the
> > > > >      >         training
> > > > >      >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can figure
> > > > out how to
> > > > >      >         uses cases on
> > > > >      >         >  your campus as entree points to legal justice
> > > > movements.
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in debates
> > > > where
> > > > >     just lies
> > > > >      >         and nods to
> > > > >      >         >  racial inclusion?
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:
> > > > ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > >      >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>>> wrote:
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     Andy,
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     Surely you should be leading this effort,
> > > > what with
> > > > >     all of the
> > > > >      >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure you did
> > > > this
> > > > >     year.
> > > > >      >         And with all
> > > > >      >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you judged
> > > > and
> > > > >     scouted.
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     Omri.
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > >      >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates about
> > > > how the
> > > > >     law is
> > > > >      >         not only
> > > > >      >         >     a good
> > > > >      >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in
> > > > education,
> > > > >     but the
> > > > >      >         best method, i
> > > > >      >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the skills
> > > > that
> > > > >     you have
> > > > >      >         acquired in
> > > > >      >         >      > debating about the law to craft a strategy
> > > > that
> > > > >     uses the
> > > > >      >         law to
> > > > >      >         >     increase
> > > > >      >         >      > meaningful minority participation in the
> > > > >     community. The
> > > > >      >         NCAA has been
> > > > >      >         >      > sued for admissions requirements that
> > > > preference
> > > > >     test
> > > > >      >         scores and
> > > > >      >         >     gpa, if
> > > > >      >         >      > there is precedent in that or other cases
> > > > there
> > > > >     should
> > > > >      >         be a case
> > > > >      >         >     to sue
> > > > >      >         >      > your university or your debate team or
> > > > ceda or
> > > > >     the ndt,
> > > > >      >         if they have
> > > > >      >         >      > those standards. But dont let my
> > > > suggestions
> > > > >     limit you,
> > > > >      >         many many
> > > > >      >         >     many
> > > > >      >         >      > of you have researched and learned a whole
> > > > lot about
> > > > >      >         using the
> > > > >      >         >     law to
> > > > >      >         >      > fight for racial justice in education, you
> > > > im
> > > > >     sure can
> > > > >      >         come up with
> > > > >      >         >      > something on your own.
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >      >         >      > eDebate mailing list
> > > > >      >         >      > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto:
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> > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>
> > > > >      >         <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > >
> > > > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>>
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> > > >
> > > > >      >         >      >
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> > > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > >      >         >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > >      >         >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > >      >         >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database:
> > > > 268.18.26/746 -
> > > > >      >         Release Date:
> > > > >      >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     --
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > >      >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for
> > > > Communication
> > > > >      >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>> <mailto:
> > > > >      >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto:
> > > > >     ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>>
> > > > >      >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >      >         >
> > > > >      >         >  No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > >      >         >  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > >      >         >  Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746
> > > > - Release
> > > > >      >         Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         --
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > >      >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > >
> > > > >      >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > >      >         Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >      >
> > > > >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release
> > > > Date:
> > > > >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >     --
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >     --------------
> > > > >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > >     --------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date:
> > > > 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------
> > > > PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > Email: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > --------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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