[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

Josh Hoe jbhdb8
Wed Apr 4 22:59:45 CDT 2007


Sadly, we had one of the only affirmative action policies in the USA for
higher education and a bunch of angry white people first challenged it in
the SCOTUS (and lost) and then got a lot more angry white people to pass a
state reform against it......Now those same "angry folks" are trying to make
sure U of M cannot give same-sex benefits to employees.  Basically, we did
all the stuff you wanted to - we even tried to build our recruiting around
the University aff action principles.  Sadly, the majority of the people in
our state (not in our county - where the school resides - the state) didnt
agree that we could do that.

Josh


On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does that mean you think that institutions that dont meet those criteria,
> that legal action could be a good strategy?
>
> On 4/4/07, Jim Hanson < hansonjb at whitman.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  not really at least for whitman.
> >
> > whitman provides a lot of financial aid.
> >
> > the barrier to getting into whitman is good grades/good sat scores
> > (which excludes all kinds of students) and that ethnic minorities frequently
> > aren't all that plused about coming to southeast washington small town. some
> > of that barrier may be defacto racial exclusion but I kind of doubt it--the
> > school is very proactive in seeking more ethnic diversity including
> > providing quite a bit of ethnic diversity based financial aid. again, it is
> > not perfect by any means but this is a pretty liberal school and there have
> > been complaints that too much financial aid is given to ethnically diverse
> > individuals (at the expense of upper middle and middle income white
> > students). I obviously don't agree with those complaints but they are
> > indicative of why legal action is not necessary against whitman (nor would
> > it have a chance of winning).
> >
> > jim :)
> > hansonjb at whitman.edu
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com>
> > *To:* Josh Hoe <jbhdb8 at gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* Jim Hanson <hansonjb at whitman.edu> ; edebate at ndtceda.com
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:00 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [eDebate] Challenge to the Community
> >
> >
> > i will be brief.
> >
> > All of the benefits that jim and josh enumerate to intercolegiate policy
> > debate seem to be material reasons why my case for legal action to access
> > the community makes sense. Material realities are excluding particpation and
> > access to levers of good memeber of community status and graduate school
> > preperation. Thats a material educational  denial based on defacto racial
> > exclusion.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/4/07, Josh Hoe <jbhdb8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Another example, Rachel Saloom works at a major law firm in Atlanta -
> > > but has used her position to get on the recruiting committee and work to
> > > increase race and gender diversity in that law firm......So, at the same
> > > time she uses her debate training to help her be a better lawyer she also
> > > uses things she debated about to improve her law firm.
> > >
> > > Josh
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 4/4/07, Jim Hanson <hansonjb at whitman.edu > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  if you want a leftist revolution--then, yes, there are better uses
> > > > of the millions spent on debate each year.
> > > >
> > > > if you want students who become successful, contributing members of
> > > > our community--then debate is one of the most fantastic activities I am
> > > > aware of.
> > > >
> > > > three alums of our program joined me at the ndt and went on and on
> > > > and on about how much debate had transformed their lives, made them
> > > > successful, and gave them self-fufillment unmatched by any other thing they
> > > > do.
> > > >
> > > > many of our alumni consider debate hands down the most educational
> > > > "course" they took while at whitman college. several say that they learned
> > > > more from debate than in all their other courses.
> > > >
> > > > and these folks are making changes in the world including directly
> > > > reducing sexual and racial harassment at companies, including gay/lesbian
> > > > perspectives in company planning, outreach to disadvantaged youth,
> > > > environmental planning and activism, etc. and NO they are not all white,
> > > > straight males. they represent a multitude of differing ethnic, sexual,
> > > > gender, income characteristics.
> > > >
> > > > they are not revolutionizing the world by ending defacto
> > > > segregration.
> > > >
> > > > but they are making quiet, steady changes that MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
> > > >
> > > > jim :)
> > > > hansonjb at whitman.edu
> > > >  ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Beth Skinner<beth.skinner at gmail.com>
> > > > *To:* Steven D'Amico <stevendamico at gmail.com>
> > > > *Cc:* edebate at ndtceda.com
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:43 PM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [eDebate] Challenge to the Community
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To me, the larger point is that when we select law-focused,
> > > > USFG-focused resolutions one of the reasons people give is that it will help
> > > > us to be better advocates if we understand the intricacies of government
> > > > action.  If this is a good reason then we SHOULD ask how people are going to
> > > > use a season's worth of education in practical ways.  If the reaction is
> > > > 'well, we really can't accomplish change this way' then why do we keep
> > > > selecting these topics?  How many years does it take to learn the futility
> > > > of activism through state channels?  If the reaction is 'we're too lazy to
> > > > do actually do anything with the knowledge we gain' or 'I just like sounding
> > > > good in rounds when I read cool cards' then that is sad.  Millions of
> > > > dollars are spent each year on college debate.  Maybe there are better uses
> > > > for that money.
> > > >
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > > p.s. congratulations to Omri on making Andy seem like the reasonable
> > > > one - not a lot of people are capable of that
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/4/07, Steven D'Amico < stevendamico at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > does anyone else find this similar to Stalin arguing with Hitler?
> > > > > As an Italian I'll just side with whoever wins.
> > > > >
> > > > >  On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis < andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you Omri, i do indeed feel more informed. But really this
> > > > > > is the last time...so sad...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren < ceren at usc.edu > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK. Now we're going to discuss "tone".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I said "seriously", it worked because I made your
> > > > > > > position seem
> > > > > > > obviously absurd and kind of stupid. I accomplished that by
> > > > > > > juxtaposing
> > > > > > > and re-characterizing your positions in such a way as to make
> > > > > > > you seem
> > > > > > > nonsensical.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When you said "seriously", you followed it up by whining that
> > > > > > > "the
> > > > > > > debates you see are more ideologically determined and
> > > > > > > constrained than
> > > > > > > the ones i see." This, to put it mildly, failed to really
> > > > > > > provide the
> > > > > > > rhetorical umpff that you were looking for.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's try this again (but, honestly, this is going to have to
> > > > > > > be the
> > > > > > > last time): the conceit by which you take it upon yourself to
> > > > > > > challenge
> > > > > > > the debate community to attack itself emerges from a
> > > > > > > combination of
> > > > > > > ignorance, smugness, and pretension that makes me almost feel
> > > > > > > bad about
> > > > > > > publicly mocking you. You need the debate community to be as
> > > > > > > dull and
> > > > > > > unnuanced as you are so that you can continue in this pathetic
> > > > > > > moral
> > > > > > > exhibitionism, where your desperate need to convince yourself
> > > > > > > of your
> > > > > > > own superiority comes together with an inchoate sense of what
> > > > > > > counts as
> > > > > > > political activism.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You really should stop pretending that you have either the
> > > > > > > authority or
> > > > > > > credibility to challenge anybody to do anything. It's getting
> > > > > > > to be kind
> > > > > > > of sad.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Omri.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 4/4/2007 3:26 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > > Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that
> > > > > > > answer and win a
> > > > > > > > lot of debates on it? The debates you see are more
> > > > > > > ideologically
> > > > > > > > determined and constrained than the ones i see. And yes at
> > > > > > > least those
> > > > > > > > folks who debated milliken have a great legal knowledge to
> > > > > > > provide to
> > > > > > > > their campuses...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives advocated
> > > > > > > using the USSC to
> > > > > > > >     address de facto segregation in school districts. You
> > > > > > > think that this
> > > > > > > >     means that they said that the "the law is the best way
> > > > > > > to end racial
> > > > > > > >     discrimination in education", and in response you
> > > > > > > petulantly chellenged
> > > > > > > >     the community to sue... itself. And you can't understand
> > > > > > > why this is an
> > > > > > > >     example of how you don't get nuance?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     Seriously?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     Omri.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > >      > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you are
> > > > > > > elaborating a
> > > > > > > >      > community critique of?...like is this a criticism
> > > > > > > that goes andy
> > > > > > > >     ellis
> > > > > > > >      > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work being
> > > > > > > done on the
> > > > > > > >     ground
> > > > > > > >      > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the former i
> > > > > > > know that
> > > > > > > >     stuff if
> > > > > > > >      > its the latter, id like to hear your version of that
> > > > > > > criticism....
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* < andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > > > > > > >     <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com >
> > > > > > > >      > <mailto: andy.edebate at gmail.com <mailto:
> > > > > > > andy.edebate at gmail.com>>>
> > > > > > > >     wrote:
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the
> > > > > > > lazy revolutionary
> > > > > > > >      >     bombast i often espouse) what have you learned
> > > > > > > from a year of
> > > > > > > >      >     milliken debates that you are now using and
> > > > > > > working with your
> > > > > > > >      >     debaters on to address racial discrimination in
> > > > > > > education?
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         No. You just don't get it.
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         There's actually a relatively robust
> > > > > > > criticism to be made
> > > > > > > >     of you,
> > > > > > > >      >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary posturing
> > > > > > > can hold
> > > > > > > >     the good
> > > > > > > >      >         hostage
> > > > > > > >      >         to the perfect while using aggressive
> > > > > > > smugness to insulate
> > > > > > > >      >         intellectual
> > > > > > > >      >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any
> > > > > > > intellectual
> > > > > > > >     care would
> > > > > > > >      >         claim
> > > > > > > >      >         to have seen the best debaters in the country
> > > > > > > claiming
> > > > > > > >     that "law
> > > > > > > >      >         is [the
> > > > > > > >      >         best method]... of pursuing racial justice in
> > > > > > > education".
> > > > > > > >     First
> > > > > > > >      >         of all,
> > > > > > > >      >         outside of a very precise use in
> > > > > > > pyschoanalytic critical
> > > > > > > >     literature,
> > > > > > > >      >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category. There
> > > > > > > are multiple
> > > > > > > >      >         branches and
> > > > > > > >      >         levels of government empowered to enforce
> > > > > > > legislative and
> > > > > > > >     judicial
> > > > > > > >      >         decisions - and while I know that most of the
> > > > > > > debates
> > > > > > > >     that you
> > > > > > > >      >         saw this
> > > > > > > >      >         year didn't really think that those
> > > > > > > distinctions mattered,
> > > > > > > >      >         that's kind
> > > > > > > >      >         of my point too.
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         Anyway, like I said - there's a relatively
> > > > > > > robust
> > > > > > > >     criticism of your
> > > > > > > >      >         personal sensibility, political ideology, and
> > > > > > > interpersonal
> > > > > > > >      >         community.
> > > > > > > >      >         But I doubt you'd get it.
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         Omri.
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > >      >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the work
> > > > > > > outside of
> > > > > > > >     the legal
> > > > > > > >      >         structure
> > > > > > > >      >         >  and in it when necessary to increase
> > > > > > > minority access
> > > > > > > >     to and
> > > > > > > >      >         completion
> > > > > > > >      >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy of
> > > > > > > my methods,
> > > > > > > >     and sure
> > > > > > > >      >         i didnt
> > > > > > > >      >         >  see the same debates you saw but my term
> > > > > > > heard and i
> > > > > > > >     saw many
> > > > > > > >      >         teams
> > > > > > > >      >         >  adamently defending the necessity of using
> > > > > > > the law to
> > > > > > > >      >         challenege racial
> > > > > > > >      >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking
> > > > > > > those that made the
> > > > > > > >      >         claims to
> > > > > > > >      >         >  follow up on them.
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant sue
> > > > > > > for other
> > > > > > > >     peoples
> > > > > > > >      >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term i
> > > > > > > think there
> > > > > > > >     could be
> > > > > > > >      >         a claimant
> > > > > > > >      >         >  who suggested that they where damaged by
> > > > > > > the lack of
> > > > > > > >     minority
> > > > > > > >      >         inclusion
> > > > > > > >      >         >  in the community, but im probably wrong
> > > > > > > like you said
> > > > > > > >     im not
> > > > > > > >      >         in the
> > > > > > > >      >         >  highly technical debates) but there are
> > > > > > > legal cases and
> > > > > > > >      >         movements that
> > > > > > > >      >         >  debaters can contribute their skills and
> > > > > > > dedication to
> > > > > > > >     and
> > > > > > > >      >         furthermore
> > > > > > > >      >         >  if through those super high end debates
> > > > > > > you saw
> > > > > > > >     provide the
> > > > > > > >      >         training
> > > > > > > >      >         >  they promise then it seems as if you can
> > > > > > > figure out how to
> > > > > > > >      >         uses cases on
> > > > > > > >      >         >  your campus as entree points to legal
> > > > > > > justice movements.
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in
> > > > > > > debates where
> > > > > > > >     just lies
> > > > > > > >      >         and nods to
> > > > > > > >      >         >  racial inclusion?
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:
> > > > > > > ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > >      >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     Andy,
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     Surely you should be leading this
> > > > > > > effort, what with
> > > > > > > >     all of the
> > > > > > > >      >         >     topic-specific research that I'm sure
> > > > > > > you did this
> > > > > > > >     year.
> > > > > > > >      >         And with all
> > > > > > > >      >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that you
> > > > > > > judged and
> > > > > > > >     scouted.
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     Omri.
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > So after a year of hearing debates
> > > > > > > about how the
> > > > > > > >     law is
> > > > > > > >      >         not only
> > > > > > > >      >         >     a good
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice in
> > > > > > > education,
> > > > > > > >     but the
> > > > > > > >      >         best method, i
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use the
> > > > > > > skills that
> > > > > > > >     you have
> > > > > > > >      >         acquired in
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > debating about the law to craft a
> > > > > > > strategy that
> > > > > > > >     uses the
> > > > > > > >      >         law to
> > > > > > > >      >         >     increase
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > meaningful minority participation in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >     community. The
> > > > > > > >      >         NCAA has been
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > sued for admissions requirements
> > > > > > > that preference
> > > > > > > >     test
> > > > > > > >      >         scores and
> > > > > > > >      >         >     gpa, if
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > there is precedent in that or other
> > > > > > > cases there
> > > > > > > >     should
> > > > > > > >      >         be a case
> > > > > > > >      >         >     to sue
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > your university or your debate team
> > > > > > > or ceda or
> > > > > > > >     the ndt,
> > > > > > > >      >         if they have
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > those standards. But dont let my
> > > > > > > suggestions
> > > > > > > >     limit you,
> > > > > > > >      >         many many
> > > > > > > >      >         >     many
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > of you have researched and learned a
> > > > > > > whole lot about
> > > > > > > >      >         using the
> > > > > > > >      >         >     law to
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > fight for racial justice in
> > > > > > > education, you im
> > > > > > > >     sure can
> > > > > > > >      >         come up with
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > something on your own.
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > >      >         >      > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>>
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         >      >
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> > > > > > > >      >         >
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> > > > > > > >      >         >      > No virus found in this incoming
> > > > > > > message.
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > >      >         >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database:
> > > > > > > 268.18.26/746 -
> > > > > > > >      >         Release Date:
> > > > > > > >      >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     --
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > > > > >      >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for
> > > > > > > Communication
> > > > > > > >      >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>> <mailto:
> > > > > > > >      >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > > > > <mailto:
> > > > > > > >     ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>>
> > > > > > > >      >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > >      >         >
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> > > > > > > >      >         >  No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > >      >         >  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > >      >         >  Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database:
> > > > > > > 268.18.26/746 - Release
> > > > > > > >      >         Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         --
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > > > > >      >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for
> > > > > > > Communication
> > > > > > > >      >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > >      >         Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 -
> > > > > > > Release Date:
> > > > > > > >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     --
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     --------------
> > > > > > > >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > > > > >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > > > > >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > >     --------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release
> > > > > > > Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --------------
> > > > > > > PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > > > > Email: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > --------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >  ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > eDebate mailing list
> > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > eDebate mailing list
> > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eDebate mailing list
> eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
>
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