[eDebate] Challenge to the Community

Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Wed Apr 4 23:05:26 CDT 2007


nope persuasion is cool, though clearly not enough...how do you make the
measures to increase access,particpation, and graduation while persuasion is
taking its course.....

On 4/5/07, Josh Hoe <jbhdb8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh and first, we keep trying to convince people who are against
> Affirmative Action why they are wrong until enough of them vote FOR
> affirmative action policies...I try to do that basically with every person I
> meet who I find out is against Affirmative Action.  Or were you wanting
> something more radical than persuasion?
>
> Josh
>
>
> On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > so if not the law then how?
> >
> > On 4/4/07, Jim Hanson <hansonjb at whitman.edu > wrote:
> > >
> > >  unfortunately no, I don't.
> > >
> > > many states have passed laws banning public funding for policies that
> > > give what I call "equalizing" treatment to those who are not white.
> > >
> > > with o'connor leaving the supreme court, there is now a majority
> > > highly likely ready to get rid of the weak affirmative action policies
> > > endorsed by the court since baake. that means, as I understand it, school
> > > (as well as other institution) policies providing "equalizing" treatment (eg
> > > financial aid targeted specifcally for ethnic minorities) is going to be
> > > illegal. private schools like whitman will be able to get away with it
> > > (unless the court takes up public funding support to such schools) and
> > > public schools can play games like california has where the top 10% in each
> > > school get entrance into the uc system (which assures some but not enough
> > > diversity).
> > >
> > > in a nutshell, the law cannot help, as practiced by the
> > > reagan-bush-bush appointees. indeed, it will hurt and we're about to see
> > > that very clearly.
> > >
> > > law as advocated by most affs in debate rounds would help--I
> > > absolutely disagree with characterizations that overruling milliken would do
> > > nothing just as i disagreed with claims that the civil rights act didn't
> > > help/change anything--it did. it ain't perfect but it is part of needed
> > > change.
> > >
> > > law as handled by more carter-clinton type appointees would also help.
> > > that depends on the results of the 2008 election.
> > >
> > > in my ideal world, justices brennan and marshall would hold sway in
> > > the courts--those of you opposed to the use of the law as an instrument of
> > > the man/the state might enjoy some of their opinions rejecting the death
> > > penalty, payment of any amount of money to vote, among others. law as
> > > practiced from that perspective would make a dramatic difference.
> > >
> > > jim :)
> > > hansonjb at whitman.edu
> > > ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Andy Ellis
> > > <andy.edebate at gmail.com>
> > > *To:* Jim Hanson <hansonjb at whitman.edu>
> > > *Cc:* edebate at ndtceda.com
> > >  *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:13 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [eDebate] Challenge to the Community
> > >
> > >
> > > Does that mean you think that institutions that dont meet those
> > > criteria, that legal action could be a good strategy?
> > >
> > > On 4/4/07, Jim Hanson < hansonjb at whitman.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  not really at least for whitman.
> > > >
> > > > whitman provides a lot of financial aid.
> > > >
> > > > the barrier to getting into whitman is good grades/good sat scores
> > > > (which excludes all kinds of students) and that ethnic minorities frequently
> > > > aren't all that plused about coming to southeast washington small town. some
> > > > of that barrier may be defacto racial exclusion but I kind of doubt it--the
> > > > school is very proactive in seeking more ethnic diversity including
> > > > providing quite a bit of ethnic diversity based financial aid. again, it is
> > > > not perfect by any means but this is a pretty liberal school and there have
> > > > been complaints that too much financial aid is given to ethnically diverse
> > > > individuals (at the expense of upper middle and middle income white
> > > > students). I obviously don't agree with those complaints but they are
> > > > indicative of why legal action is not necessary against whitman (nor would
> > > > it have a chance of winning).
> > > >
> > > > jim :)
> > > > hansonjb at whitman.edu
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Andy Ellis
> > > > <andy.edebate at gmail.com>
> > > > *To:* Josh Hoe <jbhdb8 at gmail.com>
> > > > *Cc:* Jim Hanson <hansonjb at whitman.edu> ; edebate at ndtceda.com
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:00 PM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [eDebate] Challenge to the Community
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i will be brief.
> > > >
> > > > All of the benefits that jim and josh enumerate to intercolegiate
> > > > policy debate seem to be material reasons why my case for legal action to
> > > > access the community makes sense. Material realities are excluding
> > > > particpation and access to levers of good memeber of community status and
> > > > graduate school preperation. Thats a material educational  denial based on
> > > > defacto racial exclusion.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/4/07, Josh Hoe < jbhdb8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Another example, Rachel Saloom works at a major law firm in
> > > > > Atlanta - but has used her position to get on the recruiting committee and
> > > > > work to increase race and gender diversity in that law firm......So, at the
> > > > > same time she uses her debate training to help her be a better lawyer she
> > > > > also uses things she debated about to improve her law firm.
> > > > >
> > > > > Josh
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  On 4/4/07, Jim Hanson < hansonjb at whitman.edu > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  if you want a leftist revolution--then, yes, there are better
> > > > > > uses of the millions spent on debate each year.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > if you want students who become successful, contributing members
> > > > > > of our community--then debate is one of the most fantastic activities I am
> > > > > > aware of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > three alums of our program joined me at the ndt and went on and
> > > > > > on and on about how much debate had transformed their lives, made them
> > > > > > successful, and gave them self-fufillment unmatched by any other thing they
> > > > > > do.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > many of our alumni consider debate hands down the most
> > > > > > educational "course" they took while at whitman college. several say
> > > > > > that they learned more from debate than in all their other courses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and these folks are making changes in the world including
> > > > > > directly reducing sexual and racial harassment at companies, including
> > > > > > gay/lesbian perspectives in company planning, outreach to disadvantaged
> > > > > > youth, environmental planning and activism, etc. and NO they are not all
> > > > > > white, straight males. they represent a multitude of differing ethnic,
> > > > > > sexual, gender, income characteristics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > they are not revolutionizing the world by ending defacto
> > > > > > segregration.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but they are making quiet, steady changes that MAKE A
> > > > > > DIFFERENCE.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > jim :)
> > > > > > hansonjb at whitman.edu
> > > > > >  ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Beth Skinner
> > > > > > <beth.skinner at gmail.com>
> > > > > > *To:* Steven D'Amico <stevendamico at gmail.com>
> > > > > > *Cc:* edebate at ndtceda.com
> > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:43 PM
> > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [eDebate] Challenge to the Community
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me, the larger point is that when we select law-focused,
> > > > > > USFG-focused resolutions one of the reasons people give is that it will help
> > > > > > us to be better advocates if we understand the intricacies of government
> > > > > > action.  If this is a good reason then we SHOULD ask how people are going to
> > > > > > use a season's worth of education in practical ways.  If the reaction is
> > > > > > 'well, we really can't accomplish change this way' then why do we keep
> > > > > > selecting these topics?  How many years does it take to learn the futility
> > > > > > of activism through state channels?  If the reaction is 'we're too lazy to
> > > > > > do actually do anything with the knowledge we gain' or 'I just like sounding
> > > > > > good in rounds when I read cool cards' then that is sad.  Millions of
> > > > > > dollars are spent each year on college debate.  Maybe there are better uses
> > > > > > for that money.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Beth
> > > > > >
> > > > > > p.s. congratulations to Omri on making Andy seem like the
> > > > > > reasonable one - not a lot of people are capable of that
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 4/4/07, Steven D'Amico < stevendamico at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > does anyone else find this similar to Stalin arguing with
> > > > > > > Hitler? As an Italian I'll just side with whoever wins.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  On 4/4/07, Andy Ellis < andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you Omri, i do indeed feel more informed. But really
> > > > > > > > this is the last time...so sad...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 4/4/07, Omri Ceren < ceren at usc.edu > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > OK. Now we're going to discuss "tone".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When I said "seriously", it worked because I made your
> > > > > > > > > position seem
> > > > > > > > > obviously absurd and kind of stupid. I accomplished that
> > > > > > > > > by juxtaposing
> > > > > > > > > and re-characterizing your positions in such a way as to
> > > > > > > > > make you seem
> > > > > > > > > nonsensical.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When you said "seriously", you followed it up by whining
> > > > > > > > > that "the
> > > > > > > > > debates you see are more ideologically determined and
> > > > > > > > > constrained than
> > > > > > > > > the ones i see." This, to put it mildly, failed to really
> > > > > > > > > provide the
> > > > > > > > > rhetorical umpff that you were looking for.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's try this again (but, honestly, this is going to have
> > > > > > > > > to be the
> > > > > > > > > last time): the conceit by which you take it upon yourself
> > > > > > > > > to challenge
> > > > > > > > > the debate community to attack itself emerges from a
> > > > > > > > > combination of
> > > > > > > > > ignorance, smugness, and pretension that makes me almost
> > > > > > > > > feel bad about
> > > > > > > > > publicly mocking you. You need the debate community to be
> > > > > > > > > as dull and
> > > > > > > > > unnuanced as you are so that you can continue in this
> > > > > > > > > pathetic moral
> > > > > > > > > exhibitionism, where your desperate need to convince
> > > > > > > > > yourself of your
> > > > > > > > > own superiority comes together with an inchoate sense of
> > > > > > > > > what counts as
> > > > > > > > > political activism.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You really should stop pretending that you have either the
> > > > > > > > > authority or
> > > > > > > > > credibility to challenge anybody to do anything. It's
> > > > > > > > > getting to be kind
> > > > > > > > > of sad.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Omri.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 4/4/2007 3:26 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Seriously? are you really saying people dont make that
> > > > > > > > > answer and win a
> > > > > > > > > > lot of debates on it? The debates you see are more
> > > > > > > > > ideologically
> > > > > > > > > > determined and constrained than the ones i see. And yes
> > > > > > > > > at least those
> > > > > > > > > > folks who debated milliken have a great legal knowledge
> > > > > > > > > to provide to
> > > > > > > > > > their campuses...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     Seriously? This year's Milliken affirmatives
> > > > > > > > > advocated using the USSC to
> > > > > > > > > >     address de facto segregation in school districts.
> > > > > > > > > You think that this
> > > > > > > > > >     means that they said that the "the law is the best
> > > > > > > > > way to end racial
> > > > > > > > > >     discrimination in education", and in response you
> > > > > > > > > petulantly chellenged
> > > > > > > > > >     the community to sue... itself. And you can't
> > > > > > > > > understand why this is an
> > > > > > > > > >     example of how you don't get nuance?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     Seriously?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     Omri.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     On 4/4/2007 3:17 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      > Also, what is it exactly that i am doing that you
> > > > > > > > > are elaborating a
> > > > > > > > > >      > community critique of?...like is this a criticism
> > > > > > > > > that goes andy
> > > > > > > > > >     ellis
> > > > > > > > > >      > is a wacko  or does it actualy engage the work
> > > > > > > > > being done on the
> > > > > > > > > >     ground
> > > > > > > > > >      > in baltimore to further this goal,if its the
> > > > > > > > > former i know that
> > > > > > > > > >     stuff if
> > > > > > > > > >      > its the latter, id like to hear your version of
> > > > > > > > > that criticism....
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      > On 4/4/07, *Andy Ellis* < andy.edebate at gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto:andy.edebate at gmail.com >
> > > > > > > > > >      > <mailto: andy.edebate at gmail.com <mailto:
> > > > > > > > > andy.edebate at gmail.com>>>
> > > > > > > > > >     wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >     So tell me omri (and i dont ask this with the
> > > > > > > > > lazy revolutionary
> > > > > > > > > >      >     bombast i often espouse) what have you
> > > > > > > > > learned from a year of
> > > > > > > > > >      >     milliken debates that you are now using and
> > > > > > > > > working with your
> > > > > > > > > >      >     debaters on to address racial discrimination
> > > > > > > > > in education?
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >     On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* < ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         No. You just don't get it.
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         There's actually a relatively robust
> > > > > > > > > criticism to be made
> > > > > > > > > >     of you,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         tracing how risk-free revolutionary
> > > > > > > > > posturing can hold
> > > > > > > > > >     the good
> > > > > > > > > >      >         hostage
> > > > > > > > > >      >         to the perfect while using aggressive
> > > > > > > > > smugness to insulate
> > > > > > > > > >      >         intellectual
> > > > > > > > > >      >         laziness. So for instance, no one of any
> > > > > > > > > intellectual
> > > > > > > > > >     care would
> > > > > > > > > >      >         claim
> > > > > > > > > >      >         to have seen the best debaters in the
> > > > > > > > > country claiming
> > > > > > > > > >     that "law
> > > > > > > > > >      >         is [the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         best method]... of pursuing racial
> > > > > > > > > justice in education".
> > > > > > > > > >     First
> > > > > > > > > >      >         of all,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         outside of a very precise use in
> > > > > > > > > pyschoanalytic critical
> > > > > > > > > >     literature,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         "the Law" isn't a meaningful category.
> > > > > > > > > There are multiple
> > > > > > > > > >      >         branches and
> > > > > > > > > >      >         levels of government empowered to enforce
> > > > > > > > > legislative and
> > > > > > > > > >     judicial
> > > > > > > > > >      >         decisions - and while I know that most of
> > > > > > > > > the debates
> > > > > > > > > >     that you
> > > > > > > > > >      >         saw this
> > > > > > > > > >      >         year didn't really think that those
> > > > > > > > > distinctions mattered,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         that's kind
> > > > > > > > > >      >         of my point too.
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Anyway, like I said - there's a
> > > > > > > > > relatively robust
> > > > > > > > > >     criticism of your
> > > > > > > > > >      >         personal sensibility, political ideology,
> > > > > > > > > and interpersonal
> > > > > > > > > >      >         community.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         But I doubt you'd get it.
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Omri.
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         On 4/4/2007 3:00 PM Andy Ellis wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  Uh right, i will continue to do the
> > > > > > > > > work outside of
> > > > > > > > > >     the legal
> > > > > > > > > >      >         structure
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  and in it when necessary to increase
> > > > > > > > > minority access
> > > > > > > > > >     to and
> > > > > > > > > >      >         completion
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  of college. I dont doubt the  efficacy
> > > > > > > > > of my methods,
> > > > > > > > > >     and sure
> > > > > > > > > >      >         i didnt
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  see the same debates you saw but my
> > > > > > > > > term heard and i
> > > > > > > > > >     saw many
> > > > > > > > > >      >         teams
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  adamently defending the necessity of
> > > > > > > > > using the law to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         challenege racial
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  discrimination and i am simply asking
> > > > > > > > > those that made the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         claims to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  follow up on them.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  Furthermore i understand debaters cant
> > > > > > > > > sue for other
> > > > > > > > > >     peoples
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  inclusion(in a basic sense of the term
> > > > > > > > > i think there
> > > > > > > > > >     could be
> > > > > > > > > >      >         a claimant
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  who suggested that they where damaged
> > > > > > > > > by the lack of
> > > > > > > > > >     minority
> > > > > > > > > >      >         inclusion
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  in the community, but im probably
> > > > > > > > > wrong like you said
> > > > > > > > > >     im not
> > > > > > > > > >      >         in the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  highly technical debates) but there
> > > > > > > > > are legal cases and
> > > > > > > > > >      >         movements that
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  debaters can contribute their skills
> > > > > > > > > and dedication to
> > > > > > > > > >     and
> > > > > > > > > >      >         furthermore
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  if through those super high end
> > > > > > > > > debates you saw
> > > > > > > > > >     provide the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         training
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  they promise then it seems as if you
> > > > > > > > > can figure out how to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         uses cases on
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  your campus as entree points to legal
> > > > > > > > > justice movements.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  or maybe all those things i heard in
> > > > > > > > > debates where
> > > > > > > > > >     just lies
> > > > > > > > > >      >         and nods to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  racial inclusion?
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  On 4/4/07, *Omri Ceren* <
> > > > > > > > > ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu> <mailto: ceren at usc.edu<mailto:
> > > > > > > > > ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > > > >      >         <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>>>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     Andy,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     Surely you should be leading this
> > > > > > > > > effort, what with
> > > > > > > > > >     all of the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     topic-specific research that I'm
> > > > > > > > > sure you did this
> > > > > > > > > >     year.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         And with all
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     the high-tech policy rounds that
> > > > > > > > > you judged and
> > > > > > > > > >     scouted.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     Omri.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     On 4/4/2007 9:55 AM Andy Ellis
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > So after a year of hearing
> > > > > > > > > debates about how the
> > > > > > > > > >     law is
> > > > > > > > > >      >         not only
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     a good
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > means of pursuing racial justice
> > > > > > > > > in education,
> > > > > > > > > >     but the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         best method, i
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > have a challenge to offer. Use
> > > > > > > > > the skills that
> > > > > > > > > >     you have
> > > > > > > > > >      >         acquired in
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > debating about the law to craft
> > > > > > > > > a strategy that
> > > > > > > > > >     uses the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         law to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     increase
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > meaningful minority
> > > > > > > > > participation in the
> > > > > > > > > >     community. The
> > > > > > > > > >      >         NCAA has been
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > sued for admissions requirements
> > > > > > > > > that preference
> > > > > > > > > >     test
> > > > > > > > > >      >         scores and
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     gpa, if
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > there is precedent in that or
> > > > > > > > > other cases there
> > > > > > > > > >     should
> > > > > > > > > >      >         be a case
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     to sue
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > your university or your debate
> > > > > > > > > team or ceda or
> > > > > > > > > >     the ndt,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         if they have
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > those standards. But dont let my
> > > > > > > > > suggestions
> > > > > > > > > >     limit you,
> > > > > > > > > >      >         many many
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     many
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > of you have researched and
> > > > > > > > > learned a whole lot about
> > > > > > > > > >      >         using the
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     law to
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > fight for racial justice in
> > > > > > > > > education, you im
> > > > > > > > > >     sure can
> > > > > > > > > >      >         come up with
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > something on your own.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com > <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>
> > > > > > > > > >      >         <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com> <mailto: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto:eDebate at www.ndtceda.com>>>
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > No virus found in this incoming
> > > > > > > > > message.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus
> > > > > > > > > Database: 268.18.26/746 -
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Release Date:
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     --
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School
> > > > > > > > > for Communication
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto:ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:
> > > > > > > > > >      >         ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:
> > > > > > > > > >     ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>>
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >     --------------
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  No virus found in this incoming
> > > > > > > > > message.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > > > >      >         >  Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database:
> > > > > > > > > 268.18.26/746 - Release
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         --
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > > > > > > >      >         PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for
> > > > > > > > > Communication
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     <mailto: ceren at usc.edu <mailto: ceren at usc.edu>>
> > > > > > > > > >      >         Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > > > >      >         --------------
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >      >
> > > > > > > > > >      > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > >      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > > > >      > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746
> > > > > > > > > - Release Date:
> > > > > > > > > >     4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     --
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >     --------------
> > > > > > > > > >     PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > > > > > > >     Email: ceren at usc.edu <mailto:ceren at usc.edu>
> > > > > > > > > >     Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > > > >     --------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 -
> > > > > > > > > Release Date: 4/4/2007 1:09 PM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --------------
> > > > > > > > > PhD Student, USC Annenberg School for Communication
> > > > > > > > > Email: ceren at usc.edu
> > > > > > > > > Mobile: 412-512-7256
> > > > > > > > > --------------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  ------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > eDebate mailing list
> > > > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > > > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > eDebate mailing list
> > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> >
>
>
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