[eDebate] ellis on london

Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Fri Jul 6 08:47:24 CDT 2007

On 7/5/07, David Marks <dgm2109 at columbia.edu> wrote:
> First, as Andrew Culp implied before, networked terrorism erodes the
> distinction between inspired and supported actions.

Agreed, the media is sloppy here, olberman is good on this, yet not
entirely, right after 9/11 teenage boy crashes stolen plane into boa
building in florida in the name of ubl, and to strike down zion and the
beast, or something like that, no matter the effect it was quickly dismissed
as NOT terrorism...there is not a thing more he could have done to make it
obvious that it was an AQ operation in the networked sense, yet its not
considered such, jump forward to the dc snipers, NOT terrorism despite the
fact that both men have muslim names and have  opauqly AQ agenda. AQ doesnt
claim it(though it would have drasticly changed everything if they did) and
it goes down as a criminal trial, note if AQ had claimed it, it is likely
that it would have been a military trial. Skip forward a bit to London a bit
of time before now... Until Some Videos randomly appear, the 7/7 bombers are
homegrown, and with the story begins to evolve the notion of homegrown
terrorism (if cnn runs that damn chrstian amanpour special report about
england again i will absolutly...um well nothing...but come on what better
way to connect the you hate the west/blow your self or some other people up
dots than showing that thing like 400 times a year....its like hip hop after
puffy got hold of it, but thats a different conversation....

Networked terrorism is similar to networked capitalism. The pencil-maker
> doesn't have to plan how I use the pencil, to twist a favorite Milton
> Friedman scenario. The "media spin" argument is true, but sort of like
> saying, "but politicians are spinning it so it's not quite accurate."
> Second, I don't see how AQ is incompetent. They don't need doctors to
> heal, their goal is to foster terror. Doctors have access and knowledge of
> chemicals. If this particular cell were completely separated logistically
> from AQ-I, it testifies to AQ-I's strength, not it's weakeness... they
> expended zero resources and any return is good return.

Not when the opportunity cost is the loss of the doctors, they do have
knowledge of medicine and radiology and biochemistry, and they can put slow
motion terror in to place by killing people as doctors, its not like i think
they are looking for a field medic...the stated strategic interest according
to translated bin laden and the western media is to infiltrate and provide
resources, not to ham handedly drive themselves into a building. This is
important because while anyone can be aq- inspired, there at least seems to
be some attempt to establish an official connection in this case, and that
seems to not make sense...to play back on andy's elf and earth first
analogy, while any one can claim an action for any of these groups there
defintely people the FBI believes to be in the group, and to tell the truth
probably people who consider themselves and a few commrades a core part,
doing directed operations, i know they say this is not the organizing
structure, but i believe with aq elf and ef there is hybridity in organizing
structures-cellular, autonomous, detached, operative,etc and at least the
official story coming out right now in regard to london is that this was not
the kind of detached home grown terrorism of the past, this was at least
more directed than 7/7, or at least involved untrustworthy
immigrants.Backto davids pencil maker argument, i dont think the
pencil maker necessarily
has to plan how you use the pencil, but sometimes has more or less
involvement...again the attempted spin seems to be toward more

If there were significant logistic connections, it testifies to AQ-I's
> logistical reach and capabilities, especially since they were doctors.
> Either way, for their purposes it's still AQ-I as long as the effect is the
> same.

Wow, really? Even if it was Mi-6? Or Hezzbuloah, or the FARC...or the Fish?
Is any bombing in london that they can arrest  muslim men for  AQ-I...after
all they can hold them for a long time before they have to  provide any
thing approaching evidence... and they have  detailed tracking of a lot of
people...if they can leak  speculative evidence to the  media indicating
links to pakistan or iraq, and people only debate about weather aq/ aq-i has
a centralized or decentralized cell structure or weather hybridity is more
probable than doctrinare devolotion but regarldess of all that its aq-i then
what is the likely hood of that or any justice system offering due process
and fair evaluation...

I'm not saying there is some vast intentional conspiracy between bin laden
and bush and cheney and the taliban to make england the testing ground for
the  terror wars, in which bin laden agrees to create new tactics, and the
us agrees to keep dragging england along into colonial wars, and bin laden
sends troops, and bush uses english terrorism and english laws as a
justification for a more imperial crackdown in the us, oh and bin laden
agrees to concentrate his attacks only on england and europe and to leave
the us alone, and they both agree that tony blair has got to go....no im not
suggesting that at all, that would be a rash and hasty generalization from a
lot of coincedental specifics, what i am suggesting is that  well before it
seems reasonable to put  together an official story , they couldnt figure
out  that that cuts guy killed that woman is ohio for days, still no one
knows what the hell happened to chandra leavy(lookin for someone to pin 9/11
conspiracies on look no further than gary condit...)but two not really car
bombs are found in london and one guy crashes into a building and within
what like 12 hours they have arrested 7 people and know exactly who did it
and why and how connected they where to AQ? I believe the media has an AQ
doctors story written some where, they may not know it yet but the seeds
have been being planted for a while, because bin laden said it then some ex
military official wrote it into a book or an article and it is sitting there
waiting to go, the government says we have arrested some doctors, pardon me
while i butcher their barbaric names, Khalid, Abdul, Muhamad ....any way
thats all we can tell you at the moment...then goes the spin machine...its
not enough to say it is insignifigant, it is the event...it is what make the
difference between a "crazed cabbie at lax" and "an AQ-I Plot"

Third, I secretly do hope it's Omri in that other thread, because all this
> untamed liberalness on edebate makes my wannabe-rebel nature feel more
> conservative. But then I skim the Ann Coulter vs. Edwards news and feel
> better about myself.

Or you could do what i do and turn spell check off and live free...

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