[eDebate] ellis on london

Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Fri Jul 6 09:32:56 CDT 2007


One point here, re: nationalist groups...my intial argument was that the
first two car bombs more had the mark of nationalist groups and not of jihad
groups with networked decentralized reach re the lack of suicide
bombings...I'm not constraining AQ's tactics more suggesting that given the
evidence the usual suspects would have been some one else....

On 7/6/07, David Marks <dgm2109 at columbia.edu> wrote:
>
> Re: Sloppy Media
>
> Everyone agrees. I was just cynically complaining that complaining about
> the media has become cliched.
>
> Re: Incompetence Proves No Connection to AQ
>
> I agree that highlighting this story for a connection to AQ while ignoring
> others is silly. I disagree that the level of competence determines the
> connection to Al Qaeda, since AQ's purpose has nothing to do with logistical
> connections but instead the outsourcing of terror *without* logistical
> connections.
>
> Re: Hezbollah/FARC
>
> By "for their purposes" I meant for AQ's purposes. Hezbollah and FARC are
> nationalist groups. That doesn't mean they can't decide to act parallel
> to AQ's interests by sponsoring the same sort of terror AQ wants. As for due
> process, that's a whole separate debate (actually not separate at all, but
> too long).
>
> Re: Usual Suspects
>
> I agree that it's dumb to just arrest the usual suspects, but then again I
> really don't know enough about terrorism intelligence, especially with
> networked terrorism and how all of that works in practice. I expect that
> we're not getting the full story (not necessarily for worse, even if risking
> it).
>
> Re: Spell Check
>
> Probably the most hegemonic mind-changing result of my first year of law
> school: editing everything prior to submission and using "Re:" instead of
> "AT:" That or thinking that terrorism is directly related to constitutional
> law.
>
>
>
> On 7/6/07, Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/5/07, David Marks <dgm2109 at columbia.edu > wrote:
> > >
> > > First, as Andrew Culp implied before, networked terrorism erodes the
> > > distinction between inspired and supported actions.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed, the media is sloppy here, olberman is good on this, yet not
> > entirely, right after 9/11 teenage boy crashes stolen plane into boa
> > building in florida in the name of ubl, and to strike down zion and the
> > beast, or something like that, no matter the effect it was quickly dismissed
> > as NOT terrorism...there is not a thing more he could have done to make it
> > obvious that it was an AQ operation in the networked sense, yet its not
> > considered such, jump forward to the dc snipers, NOT terrorism despite the
> > fact that both men have muslim names and have  opauqly AQ agenda. AQ doesnt
> > claim it(though it would have drasticly changed everything if they did) and
> > it goes down as a criminal trial, note if AQ had claimed it, it is likely
> > that it would have been a military trial. Skip forward a bit to London a bit
> > of time before now... Until Some Videos randomly appear, the 7/7 bombers are
> > homegrown, and with the story begins to evolve the notion of homegrown
> > terrorism (if cnn runs that damn chrstian amanpour special report about
> > england again i will absolutly...um well nothing...but come on what better
> > way to connect the you hate the west/blow your self or some other people up
> > dots than showing that thing like 400 times a year....its like hip hop after
> > puffy got hold of it, but thats a different conversation....
> >
> >
> >  Networked terrorism is similar to networked capitalism. The
> > > pencil-maker doesn't have to plan how I use the pencil, to twist a
> > > favorite Milton Friedman scenario. The "media spin" argument is true, but
> > > sort of like saying, "but politicians are spinning it so it's not quite
> > > accurate."
> > >
> > > Second, I don't see how AQ is incompetent. They don't need doctors to
> > > heal, their goal is to foster terror. Doctors have access and knowledge of
> > > chemicals. If this particular cell were completely separated logistically
> > > from AQ-I, it testifies to AQ-I's strength, not it's weakeness... they
> > > expended zero resources and any return is good return.
> > >
> >
> > Not when the opportunity cost is the loss of the doctors, they do have
> > knowledge of medicine and radiology and biochemistry, and they can put slow
> > motion terror in to place by killing people as doctors, its not like i think
> > they are looking for a field medic...the stated strategic interest according
> > to translated bin laden and the western media is to infiltrate and provide
> > resources, not to ham handedly drive themselves into a building. This is
> > important because while anyone can be aq- inspired, there at least seems to
> > be some attempt to establish an official connection in this case, and that
> > seems to not make sense...to play back on andy's elf and earth first
> > analogy, while any one can claim an action for any of these groups there
> > defintely people the FBI believes to be in the group, and to tell the truth
> > probably people who consider themselves and a few commrades a core part,
> > doing directed operations, i know they say this is not the organizing
> > structure, but i believe with aq elf and ef there is hybridity in organizing
> > structures-cellular, autonomous, detached, operative,etc and at least the
> > official story coming out right now in regard to london is that this was not
> > the kind of detached home grown terrorism of the past, this was at least
> > more directed than 7/7, or at least involved untrustworthy
> > immigrants.Back to davids pencil maker argument, i dont think the pencil
> > maker necessarily has to plan how you use the pencil, but sometimes has more
> > or less involvement...again the attempted spin seems to be toward more
> > involvement...
> >
> >
> >  If there were significant logistic connections, it testifies to AQ-I's
> > > logistical reach and capabilities, especially since they were doctors.
> > > Either way, for their purposes it's still AQ-I as long as the effect is the
> > > same.
> > >
> >
> > Wow, really? Even if it was Mi-6? Or Hezzbuloah, or the FARC...or the
> > Fish? Is any bombing in london that they can arrest  muslim men for
> > AQ-I...after all they can hold them for a long time before they have to
> > provide any thing approaching evidence... and they have  detailed tracking
> > of a lot of people...if they can leak  speculative evidence to the  media
> > indicating links to pakistan or iraq, and people only debate about weather
> > aq/ aq-i has a centralized or decentralized cell structure or weather
> > hybridity is more probable than doctrinare devolotion but regarldess of all
> > that its aq-i then what is the likely hood of that or any justice system
> > offering due process and fair evaluation...
> >
> >
> > I'm not saying there is some vast intentional conspiracy between bin
> > laden and bush and cheney and the taliban to make england the testing ground
> > for the  terror wars, in which bin laden agrees to create new tactics, and
> > the us agrees to keep dragging england along into colonial wars, and bin
> > laden sends troops, and bush uses english terrorism and english laws as a
> > justification for a more imperial crackdown in the us, oh and bin laden
> > agrees to concentrate his attacks only on england and europe and to leave
> > the us alone, and they both agree that tony blair has got to go....no im not
> > suggesting that at all, that would be a rash and hasty generalization from a
> > lot of coincedental specifics, what i am suggesting is that  well before it
> > seems reasonable to put  together an official story , they couldnt figure
> > out  that that cuts guy killed that woman is ohio for days, still no one
> > knows what the hell happened to chandra leavy(lookin for someone to pin 9/11
> > conspiracies on look no further than gary condit...)but two not really car
> > bombs are found in london and one guy crashes into a building and within
> > what like 12 hours they have arrested 7 people and know exactly who did it
> > and why and how connected they where to AQ? I believe the media has an AQ
> > doctors story written some where, they may not know it yet but the seeds
> > have been being planted for a while, because bin laden said it then some ex
> > military official wrote it into a book or an article and it is sitting there
> > waiting to go, the government says we have arrested some doctors, pardon me
> > while i butcher their barbaric names, Khalid, Abdul, Muhamad ....any way
> > thats all we can tell you at the moment...then goes the spin machine...its
> > not enough to say it is insignifigant, it is the event...it is what make the
> > difference between a "crazed cabbie at lax" and "an AQ-I Plot"
> >
> >
> >
> >  Third, I secretly do hope it's Omri in that other thread, because all
> > > this untamed liberalness on edebate makes my wannabe-rebel nature feel more
> > > conservative. But then I skim the Ann Coulter vs. Edwards news and feel
> > > better about myself.
> > >
> >
> > Or you could do what i do and turn spell check off and live free...
> >
> >
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> > >
> >
> >
>
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