[eDebate] On Stannards thoughts on Hicks and Greene

Jim Hanson hansonjb
Sat Jun 16 15:10:57 CDT 2007


jackie

two questions for you:

1. you/your team is negative. the affirmative case is "the usfg has 
committed atrocities against native americans with multiple examples of 
these harmful acts." what arguments do you/your team use against this case 
(focusing, I'm assuming, on ones that maintain your convictions)?

2. a conservative christian straight male joins your team. I'm assuming you 
let him compete. :) he wants to argue bearden, mead, and us heg good. after 
3 years on your team, it is clear, he isn't changing--he remains a 
conservative christian. do you let him compete for his fourth year even 
though you are quite certain that he will become a conservative leader that 
you apparently despise?

jim :)
hansonjb at whitman.edu

----- Original Message -----
From: <debate at ou.edu>
To: <edebate at ndtceda.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 6:56 AM
Subject: [eDebate] On Stannards thoughts on Hicks and Greene

Hi Matt,

Interesting post and definitely deserves a response.

------
(Matt)
, Hicks and Greene's critique has several problems: First, as J.P. Lacy once 
pointed out, it seems a tremendous causal (or even
rhetorical) stretch to go from "debating both sides of an issue creates 
civic responsibility essential to liberal democracy" to "this
civic responsibility upholds the worst forms of American exceptionalism.
----------

I understand the explanation.  Debate is great for society, but can be used 
to uphold, mold and creat individuals with a certain
perspective needed to maintain the ?american way of life? over other ways


(Matt)
"Second, Hicks and Greene do not make any comparison of the potentially bad 
power of debate to any alternative. Their
implied alternative, however, is a form of forensic speech that privileges 
personal conviction.
-----------------


I can?t speak for either Hicks or Greene, and do not want to be interpreted 
as such.  I have my perspective how this falls into
my larger view of the world which I will share.  I don?t think that there 
will ever be no debate.  There will always be debate, in
many different forms and styles.  I think the question then becomes about 
how debate can also be used to mold a specific
type of culture.  My view of debate is to move forward, not with the old 
CEDA topics per se ? ?violence is a justified response
to political oppression?    but to have something where we see a problem 
area, we choose an actor (I grant USFG at this point)
and we tell that actor to fix a problem.  How we fix it should be debated 
out in debates, not pre-researched in my mind
(whole different topic)







--------------
(Matt)
The idea that students should be able to preserve their personal convictions 
at all costs seems far more immediately tyrannical,
far more immediately damaging to either liberal or participatory democracy, 
than the ritualized requirements that students
occasionally take the opposite side of what they believe.
----------------

I am not sure how this is tyrannical to say they should have a choice?  I am 
not saying they shouldn?t say things they disagree
with ever, I am saying they should have that choice.  Some people want to be 
pulled to the middle.

-------------
(Matt)
Third, as I have suggested and will continue to suggest, while a debate 
project requiring participants to understand and often
"speak for" opposing points of view may carry a great deal of liberal 
baggage, it is at its core a project more ethically
deliberative than institutionally liberal. Where Hicks and Greene see debate 
producing "the liberal citizen-subject," I see debate
at least having the potential to produce "the deliberative human being."

I agree debate is good, what scares me is when people like one of the US 
state house reps gets these amazing skills from
debate and then use them to take away all the rights of those from Mexico. 
We teach decision making, but not how to
approach this ethically.  This cant be practiced if the game is rigged,, or 
say ethics/values are already chosen and implicit.
----------------
(Matt)
The fact that some academic debaters are recruited by the CSIS and the CIA 
does not undermine this thesis. Absent healthy
debate programs, these think-tanks and government agencies would still 
recruit what they saw as the best and brightest
students. And absent a debate community that rewards anti-institutional 
political rhetoric as much as liberal rhetoric, those
students would have little-to-no chance of being exposed to truly 
oppositional ideas.

-------------

I agree that debaters get access, and some them have a huge impact on 
society.  What scares me is when debaters become
decision-makers and real peoples livelihoods become ?impacts? and defending 
things you know is wrong becomes politics.

-----------
(Matt)
Moreover, if we allow ourselves to believe that it is "culturally 
imperialist" to help other peoples build institutions of debate and
deliberation, we not only ignore living political struggles that occur in 
every culture, but we fall victim to a dangerous
ethnocentrism in holding that "they do not value deliberation like we do."

----------

I guess this is an issue of interpretation.   I have a former debater and 
close friend who works on the west bank helping to
promote debate in the area we know as the Middle East.  He is Jewish, so 
traveling is dangerous.  If he were to promote topics
saying ?Israel is a legitimate state? and made the Palestenian children 
argue pro-Israel, would that be good debate?  No, not in
my mind.  However, that is not the process nor the goal, nor even close to 
the topic choices, and so I don?t really think I
myself would say promotion of debate globally is bad,  it just depends on 
what model we export.
-------
(Matt)
If the argument is that our participation in fostering debate communities 
abroad greases the wheels of globalization, the correct
response, in debate terminology, is that such globalization is non-unique, 
inevitable, and there is only a risk that collaborating
across cultures in public debate and deliberation will foster resistance to 
domination?just as debate accomplishes wherever it
goes. Indeed, Andy Wallace, in a recent article, suggests that Islamic 
fundamentalism is a byproduct of the colonization of the
lifeworld of the Middle East; if this is true, then one solution would be to 
foster cross-cultural deliberation among people on
both sides of the cultural divide willing to question their own 
preconceptions of the social good.
------------
I got no disagreement there.

--------
(Matt)
Hicks and Greene might be correct insofar as elites in various cultures can 
either forbid or reappropriate deliberation, but for
those outside of that institutional power, democratic discussion would have 
a positively subversive effect.
We can read such criticisms in two ways. The first way is as a warning: That 
we ought to remain cautious of how academic
debate will be represented and deployed outside of the academy, in the 
ruthless political realm, by those who use it to dodge
truthful assertions, by underrepresented groups, of instances of material 
injustice.
--------
I see this live, on a daily basis where I live.  My example above is about 
the politician who uses debate skills to help get Pat
Buch?s backing.
-----
(Matt)
In this sense, the fear is one of a "legalistic" evasion of substantive 
injustice by those privileging procedure over substance, a
trained style over the primordial truth of marginalized groups.

---------
I think the categorizing of procedure over substance is very relevant, but 
not the only part of the decision calculus that has to
be developed.  I am not sure how the margninalized groups are the only 
substance, but I think that is just your example.


-------
(Matt)
 I prefer that interpretation to the second one: That the switch-side, 
research-driven "game" of debate is politically bankrupt
and should give way to several simultaneous zones of speech activism, where 
speakers can and should only fight for their own
beliefs.

------
I don?t think this is what I am envisioning when I see debate that is absent 
the poison of the current the process.  Like I said, I
cant speak for Dr. D Hicks or Dr. Ron.

----
(Matt)
 As Gordon Mitchell has pointed out, such balkanized speech will break down 
into several enclaves of speaking, each with its
own political criteria for entry. In such a collection of impassable and 
unpermeable communities, those power relations, those
material power entities, that evade political speech will remain 
unaccountable, will be given a "free pass" by the speech
community, who will be so wrapped up in their own micropolitics, or so busy 
preaching to themselves and their choirs, that they
will never understand or confront the rhetorical tropes used to mobilize 
both resources and true believers in the service of
continued material domination.
------
I think this is where everyone double turns themselves or contradicts 
themselves.  You are saying people should not have to
confront those who claim, say ?racism is bad? or ?sexism is bad?.  But then 
people will miss out on have to defend racism good
or sexism good, -- you know, the other side.   I am not against switch side 
debate per se, but against politically motivated
topics that put the game over the participants.  If you really believe 
switch side good, to understand racism is bad we need to
defend racism.  Or is this only true of certain topics?  You can substitute 
colonialism or sexism or homphobia for racism.  It is
just one example I am using, and not making accusations at Matt.  You have 
to go negative, so you can only ?preach to the
choir on the affirmative?.  In the status quo, the moderates  and 
conservatives get all of the advantages I am saying the
radical/leftists/liberals should have.   Is that really that unreasonable to 
ask the one type of excluded perspective get the same
grounds to advocate a solution to a problem that they think might work?
-----
(Matt)
Habermas?s defense of the unfinished Enlightenment is my defense of academic 
debate: Don?t throw the baby out with the
bathwater. Instead, seek to expand this method of deliberation to those who 
will use it to liberate themselves, confront power,
and create ethical, nonviolent patterns of problem resolution. If capitalism 
corrupts debate, well, then I say we save debate.

Stannard

-----------------
Same goals, different paths.

Peace,

Massey
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