[eDebate] Fwd: hester/edebate moderation (From Alicia Hunt)

michael hester uwgdebate
Thu Apr 3 00:43:53 CDT 2008

"you obviously don't know her"

i judged her a few times and watched her debate dozens of other times. i
listened to her conversations with my debaters. i certainly know her as a
debater, and all of my comments describe her as such. i stand by every one
of them. and, btw, not one of them denies her success as a debater or her
status as a human. she's not the first debater who acted like that and she
won't be the last.

"Would her humanity be an issue had she been a male participant?  Have you
seriously ever characterized Jim or Geoff as being insensitive and
inflicting "suffering" on their opponents because they like to win debates?"

this one is laughable and clear evidence that you don't know me. first, her
"humanity" isn't an issue, and injecting that it is is asinine. acting like
an ass is VERY human. geez, you might as well have said it was the ZP to the
HC, lol. second, i've never claimed geoff acts like an ass b/c he doesn't.
he's way too shy and afraid to hurt someone's feelings. i've frequently said
jim acts like an ass at times. he's kinda funny, so he can get away with it
most of the time. sometimes he can't. to answer your implicit assertion -
that somehow i judge male and female debaters by different standards - i'll
have two responses:

1) no, actually i don't. Adrienne Brovero is one of the top five debaters i
ever saw, extremely aggressive and more than willing to kick her opponents'
ass. which is exactly why i loved judging her and tell my debaters how
fantastic she was (especially as a 2A on the bail topic). and i've never
described her as an ass. she wasn't. completely different personality. she
was talented and smart and wanted to win as badly as anyone i know. only
people that are fairly mediocre at evaluating debaters/arguments conflate
being competitive with being an ass. i've described lots of male debaters as
acting like asses - B. Prestes, J. Martin, M. Laird, C. Rockefeller, to name
just a few. off the top of my head, i can't recall a female debater i ever
described as acting like an ass in debates, although i'm sure i have.  just
b/c someone has ovaries doesn't mean everything said about them is
influenced by their gender.

2) your attempt to turn this into a "women get treated differently" is dumb
in this instance. i'm more than willing to concede the double-standard that
female debaters often face. Kacey did indeed act in ways insensitive in
debates. ask some of the Louisville debaters about their experiences against
her. maybe some had a grand time. the ones i talked to at the time said she
was patronizing and dismissive. it fit perfectly with my personal experience
of her debate style.

finally, no, i don't owe Kacey an apology. the people who said vulgar things
about her do. i didn't say anything vulgar or untrue. she hasn't experienced
spirit-murder. hell, i imagine there's more than few law firms for whom
she's now an even more attractive candidate.


p.s. - as i made clear in previous posts, nothing i've said about her being
mean and insensitive in debates justifies the DCA shit that was falsely
written about her. and i've already agreed it makes sense to delete those.

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Adam Farra <adamhfar at umich.edu> wrote:

> Alicia Hunt asked me to post this for her. Don't shoot the messenger.
> Begin forwarded message:
> *From: *"Alicia Hunt" <huntali1 at gmail.com>
> *Date: *April 3, 2008 1:06:29 AM GMT-04:00
> *To: *adamhfar at umich.edu
> *Subject: **re: hester/edebate moderation*
> Adam, please post for me.
> Hester:
> This thread should not at all be about Kacey.  This thread should be about
> what remedy the community is willing to come up with for a very real problem
> with edebate and archiving messages.  I think your paragraph about Kacey's
> character illustrates the point that a lot of inappropriate things are said
> on edebate about real people and they have unfortunate consequences beyond
> the immediate readership.  I'm not even in the college community any more
> and I was forwarded this message within the hour because it contains such a
> negative caricature of Kacey, my friend.  If you want to think the things
> you posted about her in private - more power to you, but you obviously don't
> know her, so you should probably not share those ideas with a mass
> audience.  "Insensitive debaters" are sometimes real people who have spent
> years hearing lies, gossip, and rumors spread about them for no good
> reason.  The "suffering" you think she took great joy in is probably more
> aptly characterized as "Kacey was an extremely talented policy debater and
> enjoyed competing at the highest levels of the activity."  Would her
> humanity be an issue had she been a male participant?  Have you seriously
> ever characterized Jim or Geoff as being insensitive and inflicting
> "suffering" on their opponents because they like to win debates?  Perhaps it
> would have been more post-modern or poetic for you had Kacey enjoyed handing
> her opponents bags of feces in debates, but I think as a highly competitive
> woman in debate, she realized that it was far more socially acceptable to
> take shit than to dole it out.
> You are not required to "sympathize" with Kacey's personal experiences in
> order to correct the edebate post/archiving messages problem.  In fact, I
> don't think Kacey wants your sympathy - all she ever asked for was that the
> community take responsibility for policing its list messages!  I
> participated in DCA bios which were very much over the line and I regret
> that now because it has serious consequences beyond what I ever considered
> while writing them.  I agree with Kacey that they should come down if people
> object.  People who DID NOT WRITE MESSAGES are being burned by them.  This a
> needless practice.  You don't have to like me or think that what I did in
> debate was humane to agree that this fight is stupid and that it would be
> really easy just to take the objectionable messages down.
> As a totally personal aside, I also think you owe Kacey an apology.  It
> shouldn't be "the cool thing to do" to crucify people for trying to take
> actions for the good of the community.  Those turn out to be the people that
> make the community worth being a part of in the end.  I'm lucky that I met
> Kacey in debate - I "suffered" through being her opponent (once, it was a
> preset) and her co-worker at a debate institute.  If you actually talked to
> her, you would probably enjoy her sense of fashion, her humor, and yes....
> her concern for serious issues that affect the debate community.  She has a
> great sense of perspective; I think you would realize she is pretty good at
> coming up with solutions for problems that no one else is willing to
> address.
> Alicia Hunt
> _______________________________________________
> eDebate mailing list
> eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
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