[eDebate] A Message to the Debate Community

Josh jbhdb8
Mon Apr 7 23:05:48 CDT 2008

SE: If we were in a courtroom, I'd give you the 12+ exceptions to the
hearsay rule. But we are not, so it is irrelevant. At least two other
persons have written
publicly that they believed some stuff was going on. So, you can vent on me
all ya want. But, on the other issues
JBH: 2 people saying they believed some stuff was going on became NDT elite
protecting privlege combined with a TON of other claims of active conspiracy
which now you are actively retreating from quickly.  Your new stance "the
bid system...its the bid system" is entirely inconsistant with your original
claim "The NDT Elite got together to scupper Towson." If you dispute this, I
will actually cut and paste your accusations.

SE: The NDT bid system is a biased attempt to maintain the old guard. It is
a shame that a former CEDA National Champion is so enamoured with the NDT
scam that he cannot see what is and has been going on for years. Unless you
compete at the NDT death march tournaments, Wake, Harvard, etc., your wins
are virtually meaningless in the eyes of the NDT  first round bid committee.
The bid selection process gives an illusion of objectivity that masks a
preference toward certain tournaments that require a secret handshke just to
find out about.

JBH: That is the biggest bunch of horsecrap I have ever heard. The system
makes it so the people who debate other people who are in outrounds at the
biggest and most competitive tournaments the most times get ranked higher
than people who dont debate those teams.  The system is designed to identify
the best 16 teams.  Your counter-system seems unlikely to create such an
effect....It seems more likely to "ordain" teams who arent "best" and "give
them a bid."  Your model only makes sense if

A) There is no other way to qualify (there are two, districts and 2nd round

B) You arent invited to bring your teams to those tournaments too (you are)

Now, if you are talking about "price" no kidding it sucks...We raise our
teams entire budget...Believe me, it sucks.  But why in the world would I
want the national tournament NOT To try and determine the BEST teams on the
field of combat?  Why should bids not be determined by actual competition?

SE: Hell, this academic year, I had to scream like a banshee just to find
out when and where these tournaments were being held. Unless you are part of
the group, you need not even know they exist.
JBH: Oddly enough, they are all posted on the Brushke site just like all
other tournaments, all basically on the same weekends as the year before,
and you were trying to find out over the summer when the principles were
likely not around.  Despite that, I used the unofficial calendar to plan
just like everyone else.  How did we all arrive there?  Most important, this
is clearly a different argument then you were making before.

SE: I am not the one who made the claim that there was  delegimization of
the CEDA national champions, that was others who were at the NDT, including
the coaches and debaters from that school. So, you can take it up with
JBH: Why would I...whats your point...is mind control next on your
agenda....should we not let alleged "people" think thoughts we disagree

SE: I spotted you the "we are not racist" argument, Josh. I think Karl Marx
has a lot to say about policy debate rather than Harpo and Groucho, or even

JBH: Thats kind of odd because I never made a "we are not racist"
argument....You made it...I made a "debate is much better than the real
world" argument and that while we should focus on improvement we should also
recognize its kind of cool CEDA nats could happen in our activity (see
Tristans post on this - Obama is a great analogy).  Nice try though flip
flopping then blaming me for it.

SE: It is what it is--certain elite groups work to preserve their elitism.
No shame needed. Some so desperately want to be part of the elite group,
they will defend the group to the death. Just an acknowledgement is enough
for me. Groucho Marx always appreciated irony and so do I. Its ok to admit
you are being used as a stepping stone with the promise that one day, if you
try real hard, you too will become part of the in group.
JBH: I dont need any promises from anyone...I will make it on my own without
your help or anyone else's thanks (assuming the 14/16 years of teams in
national elims means I am struggling to get noticed). I am so desperately
tired of having good teams at multiple schools...how oh how did I pull that
off being just a helpless CEDA debater.....Hard work by our debaters,
coaches, and administrators (me)? Of course not, I joined a "Cabal."  I love
doing things the easy way - as anyone will tell you who knows me - cutting
corners, getting favors, cheating.....Yup, I signed a secret paper that lets
my teams "rotate" into championship rounds.   Are you kidding me?  I coach a
team that didnt exist five years ago, we raise ALL our own money, our top
team this year was a debater from Kansas high school and a guy that lost in
doubles or octas at national high school tournaments his senior year of hs.
They worked their asses off to get to semis.  Dylan, for instance, did like
800 pages of work for just the NDT (new affs for every out round, multiple
new da's against Iran affs, new case hits for the possible Iran affs - and
he got to use almost all of it).....Now we find out we should have just
mailed it in, because it was a Cabal?

My larger point, is that you have no right to insult the people who worked
so hard to earn bids OR reach late elimination rounds at CEDA or the NDT.
At least have the humility to walk a mile in the other peoples shoes before
you start acting like you KNOW how they won.  You dont.

SE: Gary Larson and tabbing has nothing to do with the bigger picture Josh.
If I rig the game a year or decade in advance, I can always bring in someone
"objectively" determine the outcome of the national tournament. Example: of
course it will be an "objective" list of judges, etc. Professor Larson's
programs will see to that and you each get strikes. But, this conviniently
forgets an important note--each judge must be "qualified," under NDT rules

JBH: NO, actually we had one of our "unqualified" judges to the pool judge
all four of his rounds...there is a supplemental strike sheet for those that
dont qualify.  In addition, are you really trying to say a 12 round
pre-requisite of judging on the topic to determine a National Champion is
excessive?  Really? There was no shortage of judges or styles of
judging...Look at the sheet....and in the future, please actually know what
you are talking about before you start accusing people.  You did make the
argument over and over that there was an ACTIVE BACKLASH against Towson...I
called you out...You shifted the goalposts.....just admit you were wrong.

SE: prior to them being allowed into the judging pool. The judging at the
NDT gives an illusion of objectivty when we know that the choices of
possible judges is pre-determined.

JBH: Prove it or shut up...the sheet is available...prove it

SE: Even the criteria for determing who can enter into districts creates
biases. I had a JV team that could have possible chance (I'd say a 1 in 100
shot) of qualifying via districts. They could not even attend because there
are rules stating that you have to have complete 18 rounds of varsity just
get into the district tournament.
JBH: You can lobby to change those rules....But we are trying to crown a
national champion not admit the most teams to Nationals.

SE: Your obsession with "bids" proves my point. It is not a question of who
"deserved" to get bids.

JBH: You are actually the one that keeps bringing bids up....Thank god we
paid our dues to the cabal again....got our bid...woo hoo....why didnt we
get it last year? Oh right, thats not the argument anymore....sorry, hard to
keep up with all the slippery shifting.

SE:The question is whether a bid system is worth a shit to begin with and
whether the entire bid system is just another way for certain elite programs
to advance their dominance. Nothing wrong with that per se, but a little
honesty about what the process is about would be refreshing.

JBH: You gather your non-bid teams, the bid-teams will beat them 9/10 times
in any even contest.  The bids are a way of determining the best teams on
the field of battle....You, me, and anyone you know can do it.

SE: You are right that a movement toward secession would not be prudent at
this time. But the benefits of a marketplace of ideas is that idiots like me
get to keep  telling their version of the truth until enough people come
around. My
comments from over a decade about how the merger was a mistake were blown

JBH: Yes, there is always a risk purely emotional unproven accusations and
arguments will become the currency of the day...Luckily most debaters are
trained to actually have to prove the arguments they make..Not just bashing
and insulting people on mere whim like you.

SE: Even those who advocated for it and were in charge of it now recognize
the tragedy that has resulted from it. So, while it may not make it past a
term democratic vote, I will stick to a more democratic movement style for
change. Lets face it. Two Thirds of our former members have already voted
with their feet. NDT may not be as perfect and defensible as you think.
JBH: Would have voted with feet either way - debate is too expensive....Your
argument is correlative and not causal...just like Massey saying its the
topic every year.  The NDT is one means of determining a national champion
and a good one.  You dont even have one argument for a totally undefined

Most of all, I would really appreciate it if you stopped making terrible
accusations against unnamed but implied coaches.  If you have proof, make an
accusation...If you dont, stop trying to paint everyone with accusations and
implications that you make up.  Its unprofessional and sad.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/attachments/20080408/75660e1b/attachment.htm 

More information about the Mailman mailing list