[eDebate] ans Love

Ede Warner ewarner
Wed Apr 9 09:04:08 CDT 2008

That's funny Mike.  My thing is race AND religion.  You see I understand how those vested in slavery and segregation used religion as a coping mechanism for overcoming their ills.  While I'm sure you have a superior alternative to suggest of what they "should have done", or what damage their focus on religion creates for Blacks today in their quest to address the legacy of slavery and segregation, I wonder what evidence grounds your beliefs.  Or perhaps your challenge of religion operates ignorant of any of these experiences or uses for religion.  Why do you believe that Dayvon's thing is his only thing?  Why do you believe that he too doesn't think about religion as well? Because he talked to you about race?  So you could in turn talk to him about religion?  
What evidence do you use to assess the effectiveness of the things that you do to challenge oppression?  Your beliefs?  Study?  None?
When you assume that Dayvon does nothing, does that consider giving any significance to the fact that Dayvon asked someone whose thing is religion, distinctly separated from race, what does he do about oppression?  
Dayvon chose to speak, is that doing something?  If not, how do you challenge thinking?  By speaker or some other fashion?
Do you assume that sharing experiences is doing nothing? 
What about debating about things that are important to you, is that nothing?

I'm serving notice...
Dayvon, a 22 year old young man whose debate skills just won a national championship, will not have this edebate fight alone.  No more attacks, criticisms, or challenges without being called out for the hypocrisy that follows each and every one of you that do so.  This is called collective action, something your experiences may or may not understand.  His cap's are pain and frustration with a system that people are complicit in, yours are attacks on his courageous choice to 1) share his experiences; 2) share his pain with an community that lacks any compassion to try and understand it because they are so caught up in defending the system by making illogical attacks that ignore the fact that you both are doing the exact same thing. The only difference is that you won't respect want he is doing, nor will you answer his question.  Why?  Because the true answer is very, very ugly and ceding to it requires change, and you have demonstrated change is something you aren't interested in. So keep attacking and attempting to dismiss his credibility through the fallacy of authority, and maybe he will go away.  WE are not going away Mike.
Ede Warner, Jr.
Director of Debate Society/Associate Professor of Communication
University of Louisville
308E Strickler Hall
ewarner at louisville.edu 

From: Michael Korcok <mmk_savant at hotmail.com>
To:"edebate at ndtceda.com" <edebate at ndtceda.com>
Date: 4/9/2008 02:57 AM
Subject: [eDebate] ans Love
Mr. Love asks: "What do YOU do to challenge the forms of domination and oppression that this debate community is complicit with."
I challenge thinking that has been suborned by ideology by engaging in practices which encourage the gathering and evaluation of evidence in the reasoned formation of judgments.
Because minds captured by memes is the general case of minds captured by racist thinking or sexist thinking or leftist thinking or mystical/religious belief.
I point out that religiosity is often a betrayal of persons' critical thinking capacities.  Praying to an imaginary magical buddy for intercessions is an example.  
YOUR thing seems to be race - MY thing is religion.  I think your thing is important but I think my thing is at least as important.  Because believing in imaginary magical buddies is game over while identifying strongly with your social/biological clan is just way gone.  If you are willing to give my arguments a fair hearing, I will give yours one as well.
I argue that human individuals matter while constructed social and biological cohorts as ethical entities are collectivist fictions typically used to dehumanize persons.
This one interacts in complex ways with the other ways that I challenge (and accept and encourage) other forms of domination and oppression.
I coach debate at a Community College, providing opportunities usually available only to intellectual elites and the economically privileged.  I hope you are willing to do so, at least for a while, after you get your 4-year degree from Towson State University.  The students here are the same folks who benefit from UDLs, only they don't have UDLs.
Taken together, I do more than my fair share to "challenge the forms of domination and oppression."  I don't do as much as some, of course, but I do more than YOU do.  I know that's confrontational, but YOU capitalized the YOU first.
Mr. Love says: "No one has really answered that to my satisfaction.  Im not really concerned with whether people talk to me or not, but more concerned about what we do to help people.  I shared my experiences to show people how i got to where i am as a person who talks about racism alot."
Well, you haven't really told us what would satisfy you.  I hope this isn't just a moving the goalposts scam where nothing we say meets your unstated criteria for satisfaction.
I answered your question in the first person.  But please don't think that the lack of answers from others means there aren't dozens and dozens of great answers to your question from many individuals in this community.  Some probably don't feel that they need to justify themselves to YOU, some likely feel they do a lot but erroneously believe that it isn't enough, some don't want to brag, and some don't want to get caught up in a vituperative edebate exchange.
I invite you to join me in any one of my projects, however: improving critical thinking, promoting science and reason, challenging religiosity, and My War Against Ideology.  You've been talking about racism:  now how about taking on a more complex and less comfortable domination like religion or ideology?
OH! CONGRATULATIONS!  I sent Andy the congratulations a few days ago, with a half-jest that I would, no doubt, take it back after watching how you made a travesty of debate in the final round.  I watched the final round on YouTube earlier this evening.  You made me sad, but not sad enough to take back the CONGRATULATIONS!
Michael Korcok

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