[eDebate] Josh's refusal to see his cultural difference

Josh jbhdb8
Sat Apr 12 23:20:21 CDT 2008


Ede,

I will answer this ONCE....Thats it, I am done until there is some form of
apology.  I was nothing but civil to you.

I have always authentically liked you and enjoyed our discussions.  You can
call it whatever you want but in 6 years of arguing with each other you
entered a new level of disrespect...NOT because I said ONE thing bad about
you (I actually said much the opposite even in response after the fact) but
rather because you got angry with my point of view. You turned that into an
insulting and belittling attack on my education (or relative lack thereof),
my coaching, and me as a human being.  I dont care what culture you claim
membership in your explanation isnt going to fool anyone.  You let your
temper get the best of you and took your anger out on me.

Now, I prefaced all of my posts with requests for people to read the content
of your recommendations for debate (more courtesy then you have accorded me
at any point in this discussion).
EW: For you, respect is about civility and tone.  If these elements exist,
it is clear that any argument can be forwarded and deserves the right to be
engaged by responding in kind, with a civil tone.  That for you, is
productive conversation.  And for the majority of the 1,100 folks on this
list, it is likely that they too, have a similar expectation of
conversation.

JBH: So do you, you have asked for this same level of civility many times in
edebate arguments with people other than me,  In particular, I stopped
referring to you as Ede (familiarity) and exclusively referred to you as
Doctor Warner (out of respect).

EW: For you, tone and civility are the keys to respectful dialogue, but for
me, the argument sets that tone just as much if not more.  Can't you see
that generations of historical differences in "power" relationships create
the different tones.  Blacks anger in conversation comes from a history of
powerless, whether we are talking about the lack of wealth, political power,
or even the ability to speak safely and freely in a classroom.  White
civility comes from having that historical privilege and power.  So when an
opportunity to discuss an argument grows out of what was essentially a
mobilization of shared Black experiences in debate on the listserv that
crossed debate ideology, can't you see that someone using a nice tone, but
threatening that moment by moving the agenda, would be seen as 1)
disrespectful; and 2) a threat.

JBH: I have been talking with you for a long time....Something changed...I
am sure I have made you plenty mad before (you actually kind of threatened a
fight once) this was different.  If what you say is 100% true it either
belies years of using a different method of communication or you are a bit
over the edge.

In addition, these were entirely seperate discussions - in point of fact, I
left your posts more of less entirely alone...I had a discussion with Deven
and a discussion with Rashad and started a third thread.  Not sure how I
hijacked an agenda or disrespected you.....

A threat is an interesting choice of terms. What if what I wrote was true?
Should you muckrake to cover the truth up? Obfuscate it so nobody listens?
Bully, insult, and belittle my credibility in order for nobody to ever see
what I wrote....Those are fascist methods and you are better than that. If I
am wrong, disprove my argument...That is what we do Doctor Warner, I dont
care who we are - if we forget that, we have nothing.

EW:  Can you not see that the onus or responsibility to attempt to change
that agenda required "on fire" evidence, and wouldn't be easily resisted
without a fight?  Perhaps you can't, because for you, tone is respect, and
arguments, well they are separate from tone.  Fair enough

JBH:  I think my evidence must have been semi-on point given your reaction.
I will concede that it is correlative (programs decline, people decreasing,
budgets decreasing) but at least it was a study....In my mind I was not
hijacking anything....It does seem to me the idea that there might be proof
that decline is more related to economics than choice not to participate is
one you are not prepared to consider.

EW: When I was growing up, it didn't matter how nice and civil you are where
when you told a "your mama" joke, them were fighting words.  The argument or
claim was key, not the tone.  My wife and argue sometimes in ways that you
might perceive as utterly frightening, yet for us, it's what we do, and
accepted for what it is.  I have had nastier, uglier fights with whites in
completely civil tones than I've ever had with Blacks.  Why?  Cause most of
the Blacks I know wouldn't get that far before it got physical.

JBH: Yes, but I suspect you overstated your case...I didnt even write a post
referencing you and you went totally nuts.  If I was talking to you and said
something about you, your program, your quality of thought, or anything else
go for it...I didnt.


EW: Your attempts to marginalize me and my arguments because you don't like
my tone may well be effective in a predominately white listening audience.

JBH: Doctor Warner, white, black, green, red, straight, gay, woman or man
arent buying this one absent lack of reading comprehension.  When the first
line of each letter says "PLEASE LISTEN TO THE CONTENT OF WHAT WARNER SAYS"
you are going to have a really really hard time proving I, in any way, tried
to marginalize you.  The original post didnt even mention you and explicitly
said both MONEY and FORM needed reform.  The response post had a last
paragraph lionizing you....Even todays post said please read what Doctor
Warner had to say.  Come on....get down of your cross and realize you way
overreacted and then compounded the error by acting like I insulted you.

EW: But there are 1,100 of you and most are not personally offended at this
moment.  That at least gives me the chance to explain the cultural
differences and hopefully, they can see the difference that you are unable
to see.  If your efforts to create me as the angry irrational Black man in
an effort to ignore my criticism of your strategic move succeed, then
congratulations, good for you.  My hope and prayer is that this community
has the critical thinking skills to see past that.  Take care,

JBH: GIve me a break Doc Warner...This is getting silly, really? Your
treatment of me was necessary to your message? Or is it that we need to
break a few eggs to make an omelette.  You arguments were NEVER
marginalized...In fact, I said exactly the opposite....You should be ashamed
of making this argument in this context.

Your arguments about debate are not crazy (please note I said this) your
treatment of me was crazy...Thats not an attempt to label you a "crazy black
man" its an attempt to say you, a human being, did not treat me with love,
compassion, respect, collegiality, or even decency.

Josh
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