Greg Thomas greg.thomas
Sun Aug 3 17:00:53 CDT 2008

I don't really know the people involved, and I don't have a stake in the
particular arguments being made, but I do have this question.  If you (in
any job) do something in a public place (or more specifically, if you are an
educator and do something in front of students in a public place) that
could.would get you fired if your boss/administrator were to see it, don't
you deserve to be fired?

I completely agree that if the students were negatively affected by that
firing, then that would be a negative effect of that educators actions, but
even in that instance isn't the person who acted foolish to blame for that
result, not the person who brought it to light?  And, for that matter (again
not knowing the people involved), might not those students be better off in
the long run not being put in those situations?

Greg Thomas

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Jason Jarvis <debatekorea at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Things I didn't say:
> -Bill was right to behave the way he did (he appeared to be a raving jerk)
> -Shanara was wrong to be upset (I think Ede's comments were very insightful
> and educational on this point)
> -Both people are equally "to blame"
> -The arguments the Towson debaters made were inappropriate.
> -People should not be held accountable for their actions
> My concern (perhaps unfounded) is that either or both people could lose
> their jobs.  Why?  Because I don't think that in an activity that is
> supposed to teach persuasion and rhetoric (and use those tools to reach
> greater degrees of understanding), administrators would be particularly
> impressed by two coaches who went head to head with profanity laced
> tirades.  It is hardly implausible to think that any university would want
> to be represented in that way.
> The argument I made, that I think you didn't answer is this: no one in that
> video, other than James and (perhaps) ML looks very professional.  It
> portrays both the participants (Bill and Shanara) as crazed lunatics and
> makes policy debate look fairly bad.
> Ede's comments on the potential danger to Shanara, imho, were probably spot
> on.  If Shanara ok'd this video being posted, then so be it, but I don't
> feel its inappropriate to ask if there are unintended consequences that may
> result from the video.   Internet background checks are now pretty common
> for employers.
> Oh, and Andy, its nonsense to suggest that because I think ML was right
> that people ought to build bridges to one another that I am a racist.  What
> building bridges means for whites and blacks is undoubtedly DIFFERENT due to
> the legacy of racism, socio-economic location and power relations, etc.
> However, at the end of the day, if white people who want to change find no
> partners in black America that can educate them, or in some way, shape or
> form help us make the necessary transitions, then there really isn't  much
> hope for race relations.   I found Ede's comments, for example, to be very
> educational as I mentioned above.  It appeared to me that he was trying to
> build bridges by talking about his experiences.
> Good luck.  At some point I'll send ya'll a postcard from Beijing.
> Jason L. Jarvis
> Assistant Dean and Lecturer,
> Korea Development Institute Graduate School of Public Policy and Management
> http://www.kdischool.ac.kr/
> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 02:15:46 -0400
> > From: beth.skinner at gmail.com
> > To: debatekorea at hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [eDebate] CEDA 2008...SHANARA REID VS. BILL SHANAHAN
> > CC: edebate at www.ndtceda.com
> >
> > What is the idea that people should take away from such criticism?
> > It's ok for this incident to have happened but just not for it to be
> > published and discussed? So long as there isn't documentary evidence
> > then the community can plausibly deny such things happen? No one has
> > a comment on the acceptability of a bottle of scotch sitting on the
> > CEDA final round judge's table? No one would have a problem showing
> > their administrators tapes of their own debaters swearing,
> > threatening, joking about genocide, etc.? I hope and believe that a
> > change such exposure brings is that people recognize their
> > accountability for decisions they make and behavior they enact in
> > public environments.
> >
> > Anyone who watches the video with an iota of attention can see who is
> > aggressing in this confrontation. Is it the purpose or just the
> > effect of recent criticisms that lump both parties together to chill
> > the behavior of those who stand up for students in the face of such
> > abuse? I am proud of the arguments Dayvon and Deven made in the round
> > and I am proud of Shanara's passion, strength and character. I'm not
> > shuddering at all. Beth
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Jason Jarvis <debatekorea at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Some things should never be placed on YouTube.
> > >
> > > I shudder to think what ANY administrator would think after watching
> this
> > > video....much less someone with control over funding or the jobs of
> Shanara,
> > > Bill or whose teams participated in this competition.
> > >
> > > Good luck to all of you who need to listen to the pain of others and
> who
> > > truly ought to heed ML's admonishment about building bridges.
> > >
> > > I honestly don't think posting this video will cause any change, but it
> > > could very well get Shanara and/or Bill fired.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jason L. Jarvis
> > >
> > > Assistant Dean and Lecturer,
> > > Korea Development Institute Graduate School of Public Policy and
> Management
> > > http://www.kdischool.ac.kr/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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