Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Sun Aug 3 17:28:30 CDT 2008

so alot of peole dont endorse sanction or otherwise agree with bills
actions...either those are platitudes to assuage the impact or its
time for ceda or the community to do something about it.

i dont work at ft hays so i am not in a positin to decide if bill
should continue to be employed, but i am a member of ceda and have an
elected role and will exlore the options available within th
constitution to bar a dangerous man from interacting with studnts
inways that provide clear risks to debate and the organization

if such solutions  do not provide fruitful outcomes i would encourage
each of you who have expressed outrage and suggested that bill not be
employed to pursue the course of action you feel approiate to bring
about an outcome which is in the best interes of the whole of the

i am no longer employed by towson university but am in charge of a
program which sees college debat as a means of empowerment for urban
youth and will do everything in my power to ensure those students have
the opportunity to pursue a debate education in a space without
risking the kind of violent hostility frquently displayed by bill.

andy ellis

On 8/3/08, Greg Thomas <greg.thomas at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't really know the people involved, and I don't have a stake in the
> particular arguments being made, but I do have this question.  If you (in
> any job) do something in a public place (or more specifically, if you are an
> educator and do something in front of students in a public place) that
> could.would get you fired if your boss/administrator were to see it, don't
> you deserve to be fired?
> I completely agree that if the students were negatively affected by that
> firing, then that would be a negative effect of that educators actions, but
> even in that instance isn't the person who acted foolish to blame for that
> result, not the person who brought it to light?  And, for that matter (again
> not knowing the people involved), might not those students be better off in
> the long run not being put in those situations?
> Greg Thomas
> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Jason Jarvis <debatekorea at hotmail.com>wrote:
>> Things I didn't say:
>> -Bill was right to behave the way he did (he appeared to be a raving jerk)
>> -Shanara was wrong to be upset (I think Ede's comments were very
>> insightful
>> and educational on this point)
>> -Both people are equally "to blame"
>> -The arguments the Towson debaters made were inappropriate.
>> -People should not be held accountable for their actions
>> My concern (perhaps unfounded) is that either or both people could lose
>> their jobs.  Why?  Because I don't think that in an activity that is
>> supposed to teach persuasion and rhetoric (and use those tools to reach
>> greater degrees of understanding), administrators would be particularly
>> impressed by two coaches who went head to head with profanity laced
>> tirades.  It is hardly implausible to think that any university would want
>> to be represented in that way.
>> The argument I made, that I think you didn't answer is this: no one in
>> that
>> video, other than James and (perhaps) ML looks very professional.  It
>> portrays both the participants (Bill and Shanara) as crazed lunatics and
>> makes policy debate look fairly bad.
>> Ede's comments on the potential danger to Shanara, imho, were probably
>> spot
>> on.  If Shanara ok'd this video being posted, then so be it, but I don't
>> feel its inappropriate to ask if there are unintended consequences that
>> may
>> result from the video.   Internet background checks are now pretty common
>> for employers.
>> Oh, and Andy, its nonsense to suggest that because I think ML was right
>> that people ought to build bridges to one another that I am a racist.
>> What
>> building bridges means for whites and blacks is undoubtedly DIFFERENT due
>> to
>> the legacy of racism, socio-economic location and power relations, etc.
>> However, at the end of the day, if white people who want to change find no
>> partners in black America that can educate them, or in some way, shape or
>> form help us make the necessary transitions, then there really isn't  much
>> hope for race relations.   I found Ede's comments, for example, to be very
>> educational as I mentioned above.  It appeared to me that he was trying to
>> build bridges by talking about his experiences.
>> Good luck.  At some point I'll send ya'll a postcard from Beijing.
>> Jason L. Jarvis
>> Assistant Dean and Lecturer,
>> Korea Development Institute Graduate School of Public Policy and
>> Management
>> http://www.kdischool.ac.kr/
>> > Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 02:15:46 -0400
>> > From: beth.skinner at gmail.com
>> > To: debatekorea at hotmail.com
>> > Subject: Re: [eDebate] CEDA 2008...SHANARA REID VS. BILL SHANAHAN
>> > CC: edebate at www.ndtceda.com
>> >
>> > What is the idea that people should take away from such criticism?
>> > It's ok for this incident to have happened but just not for it to be
>> > published and discussed? So long as there isn't documentary evidence
>> > then the community can plausibly deny such things happen? No one has
>> > a comment on the acceptability of a bottle of scotch sitting on the
>> > CEDA final round judge's table? No one would have a problem showing
>> > their administrators tapes of their own debaters swearing,
>> > threatening, joking about genocide, etc.? I hope and believe that a
>> > change such exposure brings is that people recognize their
>> > accountability for decisions they make and behavior they enact in
>> > public environments.
>> >
>> > Anyone who watches the video with an iota of attention can see who is
>> > aggressing in this confrontation. Is it the purpose or just the
>> > effect of recent criticisms that lump both parties together to chill
>> > the behavior of those who stand up for students in the face of such
>> > abuse? I am proud of the arguments Dayvon and Deven made in the round
>> > and I am proud of Shanara's passion, strength and character. I'm not
>> > shuddering at all. Beth
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Jason Jarvis <debatekorea at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Some things should never be placed on YouTube.
>> > >
>> > > I shudder to think what ANY administrator would think after watching
>> this
>> > > video....much less someone with control over funding or the jobs of
>> Shanara,
>> > > Bill or whose teams participated in this competition.
>> > >
>> > > Good luck to all of you who need to listen to the pain of others and
>> who
>> > > truly ought to heed ML's admonishment about building bridges.
>> > >
>> > > I honestly don't think posting this video will cause any change, but
>> > > it
>> > > could very well get Shanara and/or Bill fired.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Jason L. Jarvis
>> > >
>> > > Assistant Dean and Lecturer,
>> > > Korea Development Institute Graduate School of Public Policy and
>> Management
>> > > http://www.kdischool.ac.kr/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ________________________________
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>> > >
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