[eDebate] If its war you want...

J T jtedebate
Wed Aug 6 17:56:24 CDT 2008

Do any of you seriously think this discussion is helping out meaning black participation in debate?  I'm not sure snide remarks and personal attacks between Andy, Ede, and Deven are productive.  Comparing accomplishements and deficits of your respective programs to one-up the others or damage the credibility of the others is both mean-spirited and counterproductive.  This is the opposite of a meaningful dialogue.  I'm not saying "can't we all ust get along," but all of you have worthwhile arguments and perspectives...how about sharing more of those and not childish antics?  There is definitely something to be learned in this issue...and it should be discussed on edebate and elsewhere, but productively.  This is not to say all parts of the discussion have been unproductive, but I hope a little introspection on part of the participants (including, but not limited to the 3 identified here) will rework this discuss productively.

Andy Ellis <andy.edebate at gmail.com> wrote: Then so shall it be...

I'm not going to engage you in a debate about deven, deven will handle himself, but just like with mel gibson some people are actually listening to you, and the words you say about the UDLs as you attack deven  have meaning, but they also betray how detached you are from what is actualy going on,  i  won't simply  defer to you and watch you do the kind of damage you did  with the plantation metaphor .
So you like to ask people questions about meaningful black participation let me ask you a few

What are YOU doing to increase meaningful black participation in the workforce?
What are YOU doing to decrease meaningful black participation in the prisons?
 What are YOU doing to increase meaningful black participation in the economy?
What are YOU doing to increase meaningful black participation in the education system?

we have data from baltimore to back up what we are doing, and people working on things that are far bigger than this conversation, and debate as VIK says is a means to an end. An end you profess to care about but seem to think will only occur through better policy debates. It won't . Debate can help and be part of a process, but better debates that speak to topical minority issues will only help so much, though they no doubt play a part of the process.
also WHAT are YOU doing to increase black leadership in college debate? Have you created new programs that are now headed by black folks? We are trying and have asked for your help and advice, and invited you to attend our college summer camp and our tournaments, but with one exception you do nothing, so im gonna stop asking you and lead, and create opportunities for those folks who may not fit your middle class standards of structure and value.
Heres another question, What are YOU doing to increase meaningful black particpation in the middle class you seem to admire so much? 

so if you are gonna wage war on deven and towson and the UDLS then i am ready, you have speant to long attacking people who won't respond to you, and have declared your intention to hurt a person and a movement that actually exists in the real world and you simply won't get to just do that. I'm not attached to a team, I'm not scared, and im not gonna defer to the played notions of change you have propagated and i have internalized for the last several years.
You don't have to respond now i wont, i will be busy trying to make sure we have the money to create the kind of jobs you point out rightly are not currently available. So flail about all you like, when i have done my work i will answer you.
Andy Ellis
Managing Director 
Youth Organizing Urban Revitalization Systems

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W. James Taylor ("JT")

Asst. Debate Coach
Emporia State University
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