[eDebate] Gonzo/Russia

David Cram Helwich cramhelwich
Thu May 8 11:13:47 CDT 2008

I disagree with one of JT's point--

Malgor, Dylan's and others' point is that a lack of unifying ground in the
topic ensures that teams go uber-generic in crafting their fallback negative
strategies. The mideast topic did not offer core, topic-specific negative
ground. Realizing this, the Gophers' first two negative assignments were a
Geographic Aesthetics K and Consult EU. Obviously, we have a really young
squad that is still finding its research legs, but we still went for those
arguments in a TON of debates, even some late in the season against new
and/or corner affs.

On the flip side, on the energy topic, Mac's first three neg files were an
oil prices DA, a coal prices DA, and a natural gas prices DA. I think that
most people would agree that it was easier to be negative on the energy


head gopher

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:58 AM, J T <jtedebate at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The issue of generics doesn't go far...That was the case this year! There
> were no good generics that applied to ALL the topic countries...much less
> the smaller cases.  We all survived...there will always be small affs your
> generics don't solve--on every topic. I think a way to counteract the
> concerns of Keenan Et al is to have your generic strategies particular to
> the area...i.e., your generics covering Arms Control cases might not apply
> to Peacekeeping or Space cases...but again, that was the deal this
> year...While I agree it would be BEST if generics covered the broad base of
> cases, but we'll survive if not...Besides, the areas will check all the
> random listing of cases like LNG (not in an area proposed thus far?). I DO
> believe depth of Aff lit is a valid concern at some small level, but it is
> just a reason to pick the right areas:  ie, Arms Control is super developed
> while Naval Coop might be more shallow (who knows-haven't read much there).
> UQ--"coop now" concerns me much more than generics...The issue on the China
> topic did suck...by 2nd semester, a few minutes of Affs were often "pressure
> now"..citing ridiculous examples that did not compare to the action of the
> Aff.--REASON? Because debaters bastardize most everything!  The argument
> that "despite some coop now, Russia and the U.S. are headed for a space
> race, and space milz is a unique area of coop" SHOULD answers these concerns
> (ie, SQ coop is miniscule and doesn't really affect the overall level of
> coop)...but wiley debaters will just go for one-shot coop examples....
> Negatives would/should argue that the plan's coop would be qualitative
> bigger than the small uq examples...i.e...debate it out
> Elections...these arguments would be true on any viable proposed
> topic...following this line of reasoning, AG would be jacked by the Farm
> Bill passing and/or candidates' specific takes on subsidies, Health Care has
> been discussed, etc.  There is ALWAYS a potential for the UQ, etc. to change
> with an election!  I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why Russia
> would be worse off than Ag or Health Care
> I agree that there should be a more discussion on list options and
> mechanisms
> Against "security coop":  textually, having in the plan text is a proven
> liability that teams will ignore second semester to get out of dumb pics;
> it is not a budgetary category as far as I know, but a term of art that can
> come from the DOS, DOE, NASA, the FBI, etc....and evidence will contextually
> use this term of art...the "security" part is both somewhat meaningless in
> this sense and has baggage.  If "bilateral coop" is used, not only does it
> satisfy calls for aff. flexibility, but can be limited by the directive
> action taken within the areas
> *M G <malgorthewarrior at hotmail.com>* wrote:
> None of Russell's comments answer Keenan's concern-that while there will be
> viable negative generics they won't be good enough to counteract the small
> corner of the topic affs, which will be encouraged by the broad nature of
> the topic and the low threshold for evidence (a problem Russell cites with
> consult).
> The generic multilateralism counterplan COULD be viable, assuming you can
> win it's competitive (something that is assumed left and right but i'm not
> so sure the do both counterplan woudn't solve depending on the
> resolution-'two offers' comes to mind.  Regardless, let's assume it is
> competitive.  This doesn't get us out of the depth of neg v aff argument
> that inevitably encourages smaller affs that the multilat counterplan won't
> have great solvency literature for.  This is normally checked back by core
> topic ground that speaks to the purpose as well as mechanism.  The
> multilat/unilat cp speaks to the mechanism for achieving cooperation, but
> the neg is still left out to dry in terms of good generic args about why
> security cooperation is bad.
> And while the election is a big complaint for health care as far as
> potential to radically change the topic....how is this not true for Russia?
> We are going to be talking about generic uniqueness debates (observation
> 4-cooperation now) that will already be terrible; if you add that the
> election will inevitably change the perception russia has of the united
> states and vice versa, there is potential for radical uniqueness problems
> for the aff or neg.  Why is no one bothered by this?
> is security cooperation the only term of art that would be considered?  it
> seems since we have the most predictable intellectual community EVER that
> will obviously vote for Russia, maybe we should start talking about a list v
> generic mechanism.  if a list is the best way to ensure equitable
> solvency/disad/cp ground for the aff and neg (which I haven't really seen
> from anyone), it should be considered.
> I'm also not persuaded by Russell's assertion that 'large, evidence based
> areas are supplemented by a wide array of plan specific pics and advantage
> cps that present the neg with a diverse array of approaches while failing to
> entirely hamstring the aff' given that it is just an assertion, a bold one
> at that, and really is just another way of saying "the negative will always
> have crap to say so don't worry about it."
> back to grand theft auto 4...
> "Gonzo wants to know what the central ground on the Russia topic is. It's
> been discussed before. The reason "bilateral" was in the topic proposal was
> because it would allow the neg large generic "approach" areas, like
> unilateralism or multilateralism, both highly defensible, dovetailing with
> the major generic approaches, and evidence in relation too net benefits and
> specifically to plans in the military area. So, no, there is no generic
> defense coop bad evidence (there is a large amount of specific literature
> that says each of the components of "security cooperation", the topic
> authors' term of choice, is bad, however), but there is evidence that says
> that bilateral cooperation is worse than unilateral action or multilateral
> coop in defense areas. This is the most cogent and defensible (and
> multidirectional) approach ground mentioned regarding ANY of the proposed
> topic areas. These large, evidence based areas are supplemented by a wide
> array of plan specific PICs and advantage CPs that present the neg with a
> diverse array of approaches while failing to entirely hamstring the aff. "
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> JT
> Asst. Debate Coach
> Emporia State University
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