[eDebate] can y'all flow?
Tue Oct 21 20:56:16 CDT 2008
Where I come from they call y?all?s spray ?junkin up the flow?.
so far, i am convinced that not even professional debaters can defend obama from allegations that he was born in kenya as his grandmother and two siblings claim and that his hawaiian birth certificate is dubious. the debaters who have spoken so far appear to be emotionally attached to obama to the point of not following the sequence of the arguments. i am convinced that they BELIEVE in obama and have become victims of a form of group think that is possibly even more frightening than what has been perpetrated by the bush administration.
1) the comments of the new challengers, bowers and kirk, appear to come from people who have skimmed the discussion so far. Sorry, we are already 3 levels deeper than the birth certificate on the obama website and the ?authenticity? derived from the fact check report. In july, fact check determined that the birth certificate was ?authentic? but since then there have criticisms of that analysis which you need to answer to be in this debate. It?s October --- see the requote from "inconsistencies with the fact check analysis" presented this morning and reposted below. The fact check report is not the ultimate truth to BELIEVE in as the obama camp inculcates you to BELIEVE. Others claim that the obama birth certificate is a forgery.
2) The BIG BIG problem for the obama believers who have put all their eggs in the fact check ?authentication? is that in the berg case, obama has so far chosen NOT TO PRESENT THAT BIRTH CERTIFICATE AS EVIDENCE OF NATURAL BORN CITIZENSHIP and instead has filed a meager motion to dismiss which to this minute has not been granted by the judge. If fact check was right back in july when bowers did his newspaper research and this issue has been resolved once and for all, then WHY THE HELL HASN?T OBAMA PRESENTED THAT BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO DISMISS THE BERG CASE? So kirk, do you get the question: WHERE IS OBAMA?S BIRTH CERTIFICATE? IN THE BERG CASE? Yeah, he?s got a possible forgery on his website but how come the berg case ain?t settled with that, huh?
3) in my opinion, the critique of the fact check report and the forgery analysis are the primary reason obama has not presented the birth certificate on his website in berg vs. obama. The ?festering allegations? hypothesis makes no sense. Instead obama hoped that fack check would fly (and to give him credit many believers have reached the point of unwillingness to question their candidate's birth in hawaii) but his legal team has no answers to the major flaws in the methodology and realize those flaws will be exposed by berg who, unlike the vast majority of the debate community, has read the entirety of the literature surrounding the controversy of obama?s birth certificate. Fact check doesn?t hold so obama had no option but to file to dismiss and hope the issue of his birth in Kenya goes away.
4) logan martin, say what you want, mr. Berg, the man who has filed the case in which obama FAILS TO PRODUCE HIS WEBSITE BIRTH CERTIFICATE, mr. Berg is the former deputy attorney general of the state of Pennsylvania. Perhaps, he lost one case or even more than one case but he?s not the fool you make out with your incomplete version of his resume. Get it, former DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA. Not a crackpot.
5) Lacy retreated into poor sarcasm because there is no second line of defense of the fact check report by the obama team. Instead they simply present the fact check report as the final decision on the ?authenticity? of the birth certificate. The ?Fight the Smears? heading of the obama website is out of date and REALLY needs answers to the critique of the fact check report in order to remain credible. You can?t just get one source to confirm your birth certificate and then ignore serious criticisms of that source like the ones I presented this morning that go unanswered on edebate and the obama website. That?s called bad debate showing up with just front lines for the constructives and then when the second lines come out --- JUNK UP THE FLOW --- with bullshit.
requote -- repost -- the critique of the fact check report which is the basis of all the BELIEVES uttered so far on edebate that obama's website birth certificate is "authentic". if y'all could flow and debate, then we could move on to the third line of argument where i'm waiting for you.
the key quote:
Rather than asking the hard questions of Obama himself, or even the Obama campaign, or even requesting additional documents from the State of Hawaii in the public interest (they said they "tried" to ask about the long form but failed to get an answer), FactCheck falls back on the rather lame claim that the short form has "enough information to be acceptable to the State Department" and goes so far as to include a footnote linking to the State Department's Passport application requirements.
But isn't that bar set a bit too low for the man who wants to be President, especially as you can be a citizen without being "natural born" as article two of the Constitution require, especially when there are multiple reports coming from Kenya -- including several from Obama's own relatives -- that he was actually born in Kenya and came to Hawaii only days after birth, apparently at his mother's insistence that he would be recorded as being born in the USA? Apparently not too low for FactCheck. From their report it would appear that they are not interested or, perhaps more correctly, conflicted in their interests.
But the repeated references to State Department requirements for a passport take on a new significance in the light of the recognition, pointed out by an Israel Insider reader, that this "new" certificate of live birth is recorded as being photographed on March 12, 2008, and a contract employee of an Obama advisor -- allegedly a former CIA agent -- was caught breaking into Obama's passport files on March 14, 2008. Indeed, his passport file was looked at twice before--both times BEFORE this "certification of live birth" (not "certificate of birth," as FactCheck sloppily calls it) was photographed.
Shades of Watergate dirty tricks! Were those passport file break-ins ever investigated or prosecuted? Is it coincidental then that FactCheck inexplicably and repeatedly points out that this certificate of live birth contains all data required by the State Dept. to receive a passport?
The issue has never been whether or not Obama can prove U.S. citizenship well enough to get a passport. He gets around just fine, on one passport or another. The issues are where he was born, whether he is a natural born citizen under the Constitution, whether he ever was a citizen of another country, and, if so, whether he ever renounced that foreign citizenship. So why exactly was someone associated with Obama's campaign looking into his passport files? A suspicious mind might speculate that it was to see whether there was already a certificate of live birth (or a birth certificate) on file in the passport office and/or to see which data it contained and whether ALL data matched up with what was on the photographed certificate and to ensure that all data matched up with what Obama wants us to believe about his birth?
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