[eDebate] 8-3-5

Andy Ellis andy.edebate
Thu Oct 23 23:45:54 CDT 2008

At one point ross said what about four day tournaments, you dont want those
do you, well actually kinda.

What if a few times a semester there was a four day tournament. 8 rounds big
clearing pool.

I would love to spend 4 days in winston salem.

Or atlanta.

The immediate problem is the cost of an extra day in hotel food, and travel
costs, plus increased class time missed

Or Carolton

Or chicago/austin

The next problem is the availability of classroom space.

In the status quo configuration 4 day tournaments do not work, 3 day
tournaments work for some but are more exhausting and demanding as you get
into late outrounds.

The problem though is not really the once monthly bid circuit, because if
that was all people had to travel, they could endure the weekend.

The problem is that in between the bid tournaments there are a dizzying
array of regional tournaments that most teams and coaches travel to as well.

In order to keep in line with ceda points requirements the current format is
to cram 6 rounds three divisons and octos out-outrounds in to two or three

The way these tournaments are cost effective is because you can drive a lot
of teams to a regional tournament for the cost of one or two teams at a
national tournament. But while the debater to dollar ratio at the regional
level is better, the coaching burdens are multiplied by every team
benefiting from the economic of regionalism. Coaches travel nearly every
weekend for months and exhaustion mounts on exhaustion.

What if the non national competition where less costly, less grueling, and
more frequent. What if a one day option existed?  3 rounds sems in divisions
2 presets and a powered round? How many of you would take teams to the
Kansas City Scrimmage, at most you have to have one nights hotel, how bout
dallas, la, new york, atlanta, baltimore...many of you could do it with no
hotel. For many places the six team requirement wouldnt be a problem, the
round requirement would be the problem

but if it where not, say at 3 round tournaments you could count your top
four teams instead of two ? this would put a points incentive behind
supporting scrimmages. Sunday would be what monday is to school, rest and
health. Novices wio may not have already scheduled their lives around debate
would be able to try it out without having to take the whole weekend off
from family,school, work and life. A lot more people will debate if they
have to give one day a weekend instead of two. Hotel cost savings are quite

Let me be clear the NUMBER ONE complaint i encounter while trying to
encourage former budl students to debate is that they do not have the time
to give up whole weekends every weekend.

The number of people having access to low per dollar rounds is signifignat.

If the constitution can be amended to encourage one day tournaments  a lot
of the pressure put on students and coaches and budgets can be relieved.

If two day tournaments can run at 5 rounds and that reasonable schedule can
be points incetivized people will follow.

loss of rounds is bad for education...it is...but in a model where 3 and 5
round tournaments  are encouraged there are 8 potential prelims(or 11 if you
want to go to two scrimmages) at the regional levle and   more possible
outround opportunities  with an extra day or two off. and im sure the math
is off, but i think more studnets get access to more rounds and costs and
time demands are decreased.And coaches and studets get a sunday at home from
time to time.

Which takes us back to the national tournamnets

The  teams looking to the ndt are traveling to really big tournaments that
are really important, and schools are spending serious resources on these
tournaments, ga state, kentucky, harvard, the swings, west georgia, wake,
chicago/austin. Perhaps it is worth taking that extra day on occasion to let
their record and not their points determine who makes outrounds. 8 Rounds
with 4 days twice a semester (To me harvard an kentucky as intense breaks is
good). Cost savings from the one day tournaments can be shifted to cover the
hotel costs of the fourth day, and if its twice a smester and one day
tournaments take pressure off of monday classes 4 times a month then the
monday schedule is ultimatly less hit by adding the tuesday.

Now you may be saying dont destroy the regions for the ndt we all ready
spend to many resources there.

Two scrimmages a month costs less than what one regional tournament costs
and lets you bring as many students as you can as far as you can and you can
encourage growth of the team by offering a one day option.

You could also attend a two day tournament a month

And a National 3/4 day tournament.

I think it encourages regional growth and allows the process (wins and
losses) that we use to determine the outcome (wins and losses)  to let teams
who can "get 5" to have the opportunity to debate twice a semester. This
will help regional teams and younger teams who are often 5-3 with points,
and to be pointed national tournament success helps with program devlopment.

It also encourages new particpants, local growth, more humane schedules, and
when it is working a lot more rounds. It requires a few things

1) Amendment to point and sanctioniong clauses to encourage particpation in
one day tournaments, a suggested incentive is to allow four teams to count
for 3 rounds and outrounds. Also allow points for debates amogst schools as
long as 5 other schools are debating.
2) An Incentive for 5 rounds to be the norm at two day tournaments, 3 teams
count at 5 round tournamnet for example.
3) A Willingness to try a one day model amongst programs.
4) A wilinning nes sto host one day tournaments and get local schools to
5)Extra classrooms ona monday twice a semster....

Perhaps five takes a tournament at the begining of a fall break, i dont know
the class room solution, but another hotel night from everyone at the
tournamnet (a 25-33 percent increase in your room nights) is some leverage.
Hesters recent post highlights a further possibility for getting access to
resources that could help differ the cost,maybe its worth paying a little
more in tournanet entry fees to know that if your team goes 5-3 they will be
debating on monday.

The rest is doable. We just need to back down from the  of 6-8 norm. We need
to recall an old number "8-3-5" and apply instead of to speach times to
tournamnet structures.
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