[eDebate] Never ending War

bandana martin drmosbornesq
Sat Apr 11 12:59:25 CDT 2009


we have a new winner

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:57 AM, tcram <tcram at ku.edu> wrote:

> 27.5
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: edebate-bounces at www.ndtceda.com on behalf of bandana martin
> Sent: Sat 4/11/2009 12:28 PM
> To: Clay Webb
> Cc: eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> Subject: Re: [eDebate] Never ending War
>
> post of the year
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Clay Webb <webb767 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Never ending wars huh! Let me begin with the second hit on google when
> you
> > search for "number of wars"
> >
> > http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/wars/articles/20050923.aspx
> >
> > *Ever since the end of the Cold War, the number of wars has been
> > declining.* Perhaps more importantly, the number of wars between
> countries
> > has declined even more. There have only been four since 1991; Ethiopia
> > versus Eritrea (1998-2000), India versus Pakistan (low level, in Kashmir,
> > since 1990), Iraq versus Kuwait (1991), and Iraq versus Coalition (2003).
> > There are 15-20 wars going on right now. The uncertain count comes from
> the
> > fact that there is a fuzzy line separating wars from civil disorder. The
> > good news is that's about 40 percent fewer conflicts than were going on
> in
> > 1991, when the Cold War ended. All the conflicts going on now are civil
> wars
> > of one kind or another. The worst of the lot are in Africa (Sudan,
> Congo),
> > with the number three position being filled by Iraq. Afghanistan has been
> in
> > a state of civil war for over two decades. Some Afghan historians would
> > insist that there's never been a time when some group or another was not
> > fighting inside what we call Afghanistan. Even the overthrow of the
> Taliban
> > in 2001 was not an "invasion" by the United States, but rather U.S.
> forces
> > joining in an ongoing civil war between the Taliban (and their al Qaeda
> > allies), against the Northern Alliance. A few hundred American commandoes
> > and other specialists, a few dozen bombers, were all that was sent to the
> > Northern Alliance, and that was all that was needed to overthrow the
> > increasingly unpopular Taliban. *Why the decline in wars? *Part of it has
> > to do with the fact that so many of the wars of the past few decades were
> > the rough edges of decolonialization, and the after-effects of World War
> II
> > (and World War I, which led to the breakup of the Ottoman empire.) When
> > empires fall apart, they rarely do so quietly. The demise of the Russian
> > empire in 1991 has led to fighting in Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia
> > and a few other places you hardly ever hear about. And then there was the
> > competition between the two superpowers. *The Soviet Union was, after
> all,
> > technically dedicated to world wide revolution and the triumph of
> communism.
> > The United States was opposed to that*. Both superpowers ended up
> > supporting numerous rebel organizations, or the governments that fought
> > them. With the end of the Cold War, all that stopped.  The end of the
> Cold
> > War, and several decades of economic and political experimentation by
> many
> > countries, made it clear that democracy, and market economies, were the
> road
> > to prosperity. That meant the rule of the people, and the law, began to
> > replace tyrants and centrally controlled economies. Rebels now had a more
> > difficult time getting any traction. *Most of the wars going on now are
> > based on long time ethnic or religious disputes*. The Islamic terrorists
> > get a lot of attention, but they are very small change compared to the
> > threats encountered in the past century. Islamic terrorists don't even
> have
> > a country to base their operations in, and are constantly on the run. But
> > the Islamic terrorists are part of many of the ethnic and religious
> > conflicts that form the basis for so many existing wars.
> >
> >
> >
> > The article is a little rough admittedly, but I think the most important
> > point is pretty clear. Which begs an interesting question Jackie.What
> planet
> > do you live on? Seriously?
> >
> > This article is just about the number of wars since the cold war.
> Nevermind
> > that the bloodiest conflict in history was fought before we had the
> bomb.and
> > then. abra kadabra.superpowers don't want to fight each other anymore.
> > Realism is a failed ideology?!?!?!
> >
> > Yeah I have got a better idea, lets all sit around and read Nietzsche all
> > day and see where that gets us. Perhaps we can structure the
> international
> > order around the ubermensch or we can sit around and think about our
> > feelings (ontology.etc.) all day.. I wonder where we would be
> > then.hmmm..wait.that's right.Nazi Germany. You like to scoff at the
> > old..wft..Heidegger was a Nazi argument.and yeah.its pretty crappy.but
> > seriously..
> >
> > What is more is that the only reason any of us get to participate in this
> > activity, fly all over the country, stay in nice hotels, etc. Is because
> we
> > live in the wealthiest country on earth.period. We generate the excess
> > wealth necessary. We pay the big bad government taxes, and they give it
> to
> > the university that employs you Massey. Yes, other countries have debate.
> It
> > is not like NDT/CEDA debate. Nobody does it like we do it.and its because
> > of..aircraft carriers, capitalism, and the pharmaceutical companies.
>  Capitalism
> > makes it possible baby!!! You call it exceptionalism..I call it.reality.
> > There is not a better place to live, and there is no where any of us
> would
> > rather be. If you do want to leave.you can.because.wait.that right.you
> are
> > free to.
> >
> > Perhaps I have been brainwashed. Maybe debate has twisted my mind in ways
> I
> > can't understand, and I will probably never recover. Andy Casey once told
> me
> > I was an automaton.some sort of robot that worships the bomb.true.
> Despite
> > this, I am confident that most signs point to, and the preponderance of
> peer
> > reviewed work in almost every field would suggest, things aren't that
> bad.
> > (peer reviewed as in.no.not Ward Churchill). This is not the Soviet
> Union.
> > Yes recession, yes Iraq, yes poverty, yes hunger...there are plenty of
> > problems to concern ourselves with. All the more reason to.I dunno.talk
> > about them.
> >
> > "Re arm ourselves" "No more realism". "new files" . but then where would
> > you be Jackie. I mean, if no one researches the topic, where are you
> going
> > to get your link. What would you do without people like me.  Jackie, we
> > live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men
> > with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? Russell? The automatons of this
> community
> > have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You wine
> about
> > our ontology and your curse our ethics; you have that luxury. You have
> the
> > luxury of not knowing what we know: that nuclear weapons, while awesome,
> > also probably saves lives and that their existence, while grotesque and
> > incomprehensible to you, save lives. You need people like me Jackie. You
> > don't want to talk about the topic because deep down in places you don't
> > talk about at cocktail parties you want me on that wall, you need me on
> that
> > wall. We use cards from Mearsheimer, Mead, and Khalilzad. We use them as
> the
> > backbone of a life trying to defend something. The damned resolution. To
> you
> > its little more than a punch line. I have neither the time nor the
> > inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the
> > blanket of the very freedom God provides (his capitalism) and then
> questions
> > the manner in which he provides it. I would rather you just said "thank
> you"
> > and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you just ...well...read the
> same
> > argument again next year. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think
> we
> > need.
> >
> > Oh.and you have the UQ..You.have the UQ..that's cute. Look Jackie I don't
> > blame you for having no Idea where the UQ is. You lost the UQ a long time
> > ago my friend. You just didn't notice because while you and the other
> > hippies were busy playing with your ontologies.me and the other neocons
> > stole it out from under your nose. This world isn't changing Jackie. And
> if
> > those walls come down we are bringing the rest of you down with them. The
> > oceans will boil, the mountains will tremble, and the masses will live in
> > fear. We will nuke the land, pave it, and put a giant American flag above
> > the shopping mall. That's the world we live in. That's the world you live
> in
> > Jackie. Ignore it if you want.it will just make it that much easier.
> >
> > War
> >
> > Clay
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > eDebate at www.ndtceda.com
> > http://www.ndtceda.com/mailman/listinfo/edebate
> >
>
>
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