[eDebate] for the unnoteworthy 35%

Kevin Sanchez let_the_american_empire_burn
Sat Jun 27 19:31:13 CDT 2009


i wasn't a debater of note, that much is true. but really, jack, i know
lots of successful debaters who don't share your penchant for personal
attack and who are smart enough to recognize when fomenting anger
hurts the possibility of any engagement. there's no excuse for your
outbursts. calm down, be civil, and educate "a real stupid person".

"because 20 people have died, we need to believe zizek that mousavi
is authentic islamic democracy."

a., it's very likely that more than 20 people have died, and by most
accounts, they were murdered while peacefully protesting. courage
in the face of brutality is still a virtue among leftists, is it not? or is
the only virtue an indefatigable cynicism that declares 'more of the
same' while other people are taking bullets? as opposed to that, i'll
prefer 'mawkish' any day.

b., you continually drop the argument which i was kind enough to
put an equal sign in just for you: "pro-iranian protesters does not
= pro-mousavi." what's authentically democratically islamic is the
movement of the people, not the leader who will be judged by how
well he honors that movement. thousands of people chose to go
into the streets despite what you coldly refer to as "a predictable
crackdown". every demonstration is not only about what's at issue
in the demonstration but about the right to demonstrate as such.
this simple priority should precede all other considerations, before
we breathe a word about possible foreign meddling (which even
given all your sources, still sounds a bit paranoiac to me).

c., zizek is irrelevant. we need to believe our own eyes. and i cited
foucault to show that he would not default to your cynicism, that
he paid the utmost attention to the irreducible moment in protest
when the a-historical yearning breaks through the wall of history.

"the deaths don't prove significant vote fraud or a stolen election."

no, they don't. they prove that people aren't permitted to assemble
to criticize in public what they perceive to be significant vote fraud
and a stolen election. ...do you stand by the guardian council, jack?
do you stand on their assessment that while there were irregularities,
none were significant enough to affect the outcome of the election?
and do you oppose the call for an independent arbitration panel to
certify the results?

since hester is not 'a jealous exhibitionist whose only debate notoriety
is on edebate', you should re-read what he wrote to you on friday:

"where we may disagree is that i don't think this *whole* thing is just a
smoke-and-mirrors western media production. even if the CIA and its ilk have
been instigating protests (and i agree that's fairly easy to assume based on
the historical record), that doesn't mean there isn't *also *a LOT of pent
up anger with the current regime (or whatever the hell else teen angst and
rising expextations are directed against) that is part of this too. while it
has to be 51% to win an election, if 35% of the populace is upset, that can
still cause a regime serious headaches. the unrest may have catalyzed around
the elections (or been lit afire by western propagandistic efforts to foment
revolt), but the longer it goes on, the more it becomes about issues larger
than one election."

you responded to this with a question, "will the movement ever reach critical
mass in the future and swell beyond the students and educated?"

let us agree to hope.

_


p.s., you've been critical of the obama administration's interferences; do
you similarly disappove of the state department's request to twitter that it
not shut down monday for routine maintaince so that people in iran could
continue to use the service to organize protests and spread information?
_


"Is there or is there not a reason to revolt? Let?s leave the question open.
There are revolts and that is a fact. It is through revolt that subjectivity
(NOT THAT OF GREAT MEN BUT THAT OF WHOMEVER) introduces itself into
history and gives it the breath of life. [A] people refuses the regime which
oppresses it. This does not assure the rebel of the promised tomorrow. One
does not have to maintain that these confused voices express the ultimate
truth. For there to be a sense in listening to them and in searching for what
they want to say, it is sufficient that they exist and that they have against
them so much, which is set up to silence them."

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