[eDebate] not easy being green

Kevin Sanchez let_the_american_empire_burn
Mon Jun 29 22:17:21 CDT 2009








http://www.ndtceda.com/pipermail/edebate/2009-June/079065.html
_

getting more difficult to pick out any actual arguments among all the vitriol.

stroube: "resort to rules keeping... enforce the absolute standards of
ethical debate discourse..." 

...so you're against civility now? 

you do realize we're having a conversation, and that there probably are
strings of words both of us could write which would effectively end it. so
if we both feel the conversation is worth participating in (by our actions,
we both do), then we're also implicitly agreeing not to type those strings
of words. that's not even technically a matter of 'enforcing rules', but of
acknowledging certain minimal norms of discourse. civility is composed in
the lines two self-respecting people agree not to cross in order to keep a
conversation going.

using hester's figure of 35% in the subject-heading grants nothing about
the election being non-fraudulent.

"Iranian elections are neither free nor fair. Because the Islamic Republic has
never allowed independent election monitoring, it is impossible to ascertain
whether elections have been held without fraud. There are reasons, however,
to question the veracity of the Iranian government's election figures, which
do not always add up."
: http://www.iranrights.org/english/document-604.php

that's why mousavi's call for an independent body to look at the numbers is
a radical one. i'm sure you know better than to reduce a political movement
to its nominal leader; the composition of the social forces should matter as
much or more as the name of the honcho in charge. and when we saw the
protests, there were lots of people besides 'twittering-students'. so why did
the protests wane? here's the middle east media research institute's guess:

"In attempt to quell the protests, which were mostly peaceful, the Iranian
regime has employed brutal violence. IRGC and Basij units, some of them in
plainclothes, used both cold weapons (clubs and knives) and live fire against
the protestors. In addition to employing violence against the demonstrators
in the streets, the security forces also raided student dorms, especially in
Tehran; arrested protesters, political activists, journalists and intellectuals;
and persecuted owners of homes from which the call of "Allah Akbar" was
heard in the nights. The heads of the regime made threats against anyone
who participated in the demonstrations, blocked websites and media outlets
supportive of the protest movement, and waged a media campaign against
this movement by describing the protestors and their leaders as hostile
elements collaborating with Iran's enemies."

the heartless cynicism with which stroube has commented upon this event
demonstrates an ideological blindness to this irreducible moment of protest.

"...and when a secret policeman tried to stop us filming, the crowd turned on
him and chased him away..." 
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcHT8-ps64w @2:03s

stroube: "zizek says in the video that doubts about mousavi the murderer
are examples of western cynicism. zizek frames the movement as a mousavi
movement."

your position is much stronger than one would assume from your reversion
to serial misrepresentation. what zizek referred to as "western cynicism at
its worst" was the knee-jerk misrecognition of the irreducible event as just
another pro-western market-reformer supported by the u.s.a. and israel; he
is not referring to legitimate doubts we may entertain about mousavi as a
candidate. zizek did say that mousavi was 'the best side of islamists' and i
won't go that far. yet one link in stroube's complicated internal link scenario
(which invariably ends at the doorstep of the white house) is that mousavi
is a pro-market neoliberal. to quote a news-magazine which knows a little
something about being pro-market,

"[Ali-Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Mousavi] have starkly different views on
the economy, for instance. Rafsanjani has called for economic liberalization,
while Mousavi's state-centered economic development policy and nationalization
of private enterprises and introduction of ration cards during the war earned
him the name 'the Coupon Prime Minister.' ... As a supporter of the private
sector, Khamenei loathed Mousavi's leftist economic policies during the 1980s."
: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/17/iran-election-khamenei-opinions-contributors-mir-hossein-mousavi.html

one of the points zizek makes is that the mere specter of authentically
political islam pisses off both traditional islamists (e.g., ayatollah ali khamenei)
and western liberals (e.g., jack stroube). what the old guard percieves as a
legitimate threat the old leftists percieve as more imperialist influence, and
so they join together to paint any resistance as pro-western. this brings us
to the wedge foucault drove through the dominant intrepretations of '79,

"When Iranians speak of Islamic government; when, under the threat of bullets,
they transform it into a slogan of the streets; when they reject in its name,
perhaps at the risk of a bloodbath, deals arranged by parties and politicians,
they have other things on their minds than these formulas from everywhere
and nowhere. They also have other things in their hearts. I believe that they
are thinking about a reality that is very near to them, since they themselves
are its active agents. It is first and foremost about a movement that aims to
give a permanent role in political life to the traditional structures of Islamic
society. An Islamic government is what will allow the continuing activity of
the thousands of political centers that have been spawned in mosques and
religious communities in order to resist the shah's regime. I was given an example.
Ten years ago, an earthquake hit Ferdows. The entire city had to be reconstructed,
but since the plan that had been selected was not to the satisfaction of most
of the peasants and the small artisans, they seceded. Under the guidance of
a religious leader, they went on to found their city a little further away. They
had collected funds in the entire region. They had collectively chosen places
to settle, arranged a water supply, and organized cooperatives. They had called
their city Islamiyeh. The earthquake had been an opportunity to use religious
structures not only as centers of resistance, but also as sources for political
creation. This is what one dreams about when one speaks of Islamic government."
: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/007863.html

pro-iranian protesters does not = pro-mousavi
pro-iranian protesters does not = pro-mousavi
pro-iranian protesters does not = pro-mousavi
pro-iranian protesters does not = pro-mousavi
pro-iranian protesters does not = pro-mousavi

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